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2,371 posts in this topic

I liked the episode.

Things don't always work out how you want. A 'fitting ending' for whoever we think deserves one isn't always the way it happens and it certainly hasn't always been that way on this show, all the way back to Ned Stark.  

It's a brutal land and these are primitive people. I remember when they killed Oberyn - I hated it - and yet, that is the story of this land....

Which incidentally reminded me of a conversation from back then:

Tyrion Lannister : [tears welling]  Well... sooner or later, Cersei always gets what she wants. 

Oberyn: And what about what I want? Justice for my sister and her children.

TyrionIf you want justice, you've come to the wrong place. 

Oberyn Martell : I disagree. I've come to the perfect place. I want to bring those who have wronged me to justice, and all those who have wronged me are right here. I will begin with Ser Gregor Clegane, who killed my sister's children and then raped her with their blood still on his hands before killing her, too. I will be your champion.

 

 

And then of course, in a twist, the reality of the world they live in jumped up and snuffed out that champion.

Daenerys finally brought justice to King's Landing. She left no room for a twist. This time Cersei did NOT get what she wants.

 

Edited by Chuck Gower
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I just can't wait for this show to be over and the books to be released (in another 15 years or so). D&D are ending the show like it's a checklist - it's like they've given up completely on trying to tell a real story and are going through the motions to end it as fast as possible. 

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11 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Seems to me, Daenerys' whole story is about her 'belief' to the RIGHTFUL claim to the throne. Every step of the way. And learning what she needs to do to get to that RIGHTFUL claim to it. Those 'changes' she made were steps, she believed she had to take to learn to be a ruler of the seven kingdoms, not changes in who she really is. She has convinced herself over almost a decade that it is her DESTINY. It is what will be. 

And then to suddenly find out... nope. It's NOT you. Oh by the way it's your lover. Who now doesn't want to love you. And has betrayed you. And it's all going to come crumbling down around you. You are NOT the rightful claim to the throne. The people love Jon, not her... Tyrion failed her, Varys betrayed her, the Starks are conspiring against her and now the one man she truly loved has betrayed her by empowering those people after she specifically told him it WOULD... (add into that Jorah dying in her arms, and Missandei being beheaded right in front of her as she GAVE Cersei a chance to take advantage of her mercy...)

And of course her family has a history of madness.

But was it madness or...as the saying goes... hell hath no fury like a woman scorned... it all made sense to me. It's always been all about what Daenerys wanted vs the rest of the world.

This.

And I would add a few things...

She had been told season after season that the people of Westeros were awaiting her return, that in secret, they were praying for the salvation that she would deliver.

The reality was very different and she finds herself a stranger in a strange land with an ever-dwindling company of supporters.

She also agreed to fight Jon's war and consequently lost half of her Dothraki and Unsullied. She lost two dragons, the closest thing she had to a friend, and the man that she loved.

For somebody already touched by madness, and with the word's of the Man King in her ears...'burn them all'...I thought her unfettered brutality realistic.

As for Jamie and Cersei, I actually found their ending entirely satisfying and completely appropriate. To have them killed by Arya/Jon/the Hound/Bronn/whoever would have been pandering to the fan-base. To actually have their world (literally) coming down around their ears, with them the only two left in that world, was in keeping with what they had always meant to each other since the very first episode. It was in fact lovely that Jamie starts the whole thing rolling by throwing somebody off a tower for Cersei...and then they both die beneath towers that crash down on them.

However, I do bemoan the early truncation of so many sub-plots...this really did need to be a ten episode series.

 

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1 minute ago, Flaming_Telepath said:

As for Jamie and Cersei, I actually found their ending entirely satisfying and completely appropriate. To have them killed by Arya/Jon/the Hound/Bronn/whoever would have been pandering to the fan-base. To actually have their world (literally) coming down around their ears, with them the only two left in that world, was in keeping with what they had always meant to each other since the very first episode. It was in fact lovely that Jamie starts the whole thing rolling by throwing somebody off a tower for Cersei...and then they both die beneath towers that crash down on them.

 

It may have been a decent death, but they ruined both of the characters to get there. Jaime had one of the best written redemption arcs, and then it was thrown away for...well for no reason, apparently. There was no motivating factor for him to return to Cersei. And him saying that he doesn't care about the people? Well then why did he kill the Mad King? And why did he leave for Winterfell to fight for humanity? 

Here's a fitting end for the two characters (taken from a Reddit thread):

Quote

Imagine the ramparts are burning. Cersei is raving and crying, Qyburn's dead, she's saying there's no way she'll lose. No way! Jamie's snuck into the Red Keep, shows his face, and such relief hits her. Then she tells Jaime to kill their enemies, they have to light the wildfire that's (STILL!!!) left all over the city, and in that moment Jaime's back again 15 years ago with Mad King Aerys ready to light the town on fire. So one more time, Jaime stops it -- only this time he's murdered his sister.

He sits down in the courtyard and weeps, and that's when Dany starts burning the city -- and Jaime realizes it was all for nothing.

Infinitely better. 

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In fact... it's FITTING, how the Stark's... so caught up in what they believe is right and proper... in a land of brutality and death, stand around and look silly in this episode. It's THINKING what's the 'right' way to do things that got Ned killed and not understanding your enemies or who they really are that got Robb and his mom killed... the Stark's have ALWAYS been one step behind in this show.

Only Sansa... who has had the MOST direct contact with the Lannister's has learned to understand what it's all about, and Jon just didn't want to listen to her. He just kept on with his silly 'pie in the sky' fantasy about how him and Dany would rule together.

BOOM! Game of Thrones reality says otherwise.

Just like the show has always done.

And Arya - love her - but it seemed she would go and kill the Queen - just like in traditional stories... and having just dispatched of the Night King... she'll be a hero and maybe it'll be HER to rule the Seven Kingdoms and...

BOOM! Game of Thrones reality says otherwise.

Just like the show has always done.

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3 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

And Arya - love her - but it seemed she would go and kill the Queen - just like in traditional stories... and having just dispatched of the Night King... she'll be a hero and maybe it'll be HER to rule the Seven Kingdoms and...

BOOM! Game of Thrones reality says otherwise.

Just like the show has always done.

She was never going to kill Cersei. Her not doing so was only unexpected to people who didn't know any better. 

She may still kill the Queen. 

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I laughed at the idea of Jaime Lannister's redemption from the moment they tried to present it in this story. I never forgave him for Ned Stark and I waited patiently for his death in this series. He and his sister are the two EASIEST characters to figure out. They are about THEMSELVES. Always. Anything anyone might believe on the way is just the tricks they play to get what they want. 

The motivating factor of his return to Cersei is that he SAW what was coming and despite his sudden 'love' for Brienne, his ONLY real love is for his sister. Of COURSE he'd return to be by her side and kill the man that wanted to take his place. And the ending, I thought was perfect for the two as their castle crumbled down upon them in each other's arms. 

Neither ever cared about the people. 

 

Edited by Chuck Gower
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5 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

I laughed at the idea of Jaime Lannister's redemption from the moment they tried to present it in this story. I never forgave him for Ned Stark and I waited patiently for his death in this series. He and his sister are the two EASIEST characters to figure out. They are about THEMSELVES. Always. Anything anyone might believe on the way is just the tricks they play to get what they want. 

The motivating factor of his return to Cersei is that he SAW what was coming and despite his sudden 'love' for Brienne, his ONLY real love is for his sister. Of COURSE he'd return to be by her side and kill the man that wanted to take his place. And the ending, I thought was perfect for the two as their castled crumbled down upon them in each other's arms. 

 Neither ever cared about the people. 

  

If that was his motivating factor they did a terrible job of showing it. 

And you can't say he never cared for the people. He killed the Mad King to save the people. He left Cersei to save the people. The idea of him not caring is laughable, which is why him going back to Cersei in the way the show presented is unbelievable. 

Edited by Kon_Jelly
I can't write the word ?
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Jamie's 'redemption' was never that.

Even in episode 2 of this season, when stood before the Starks and Dany, he states that 'he would do it all again'. He 'fought for the living' because the living included him, Cersei and Tyrion.

His whole world, however, always revolved around Cersei. He knew he was going to his death, but that's how he'd lived his life...at her side.

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3 minutes ago, Flaming_Telepath said:

Jamie's 'redemption' was never that.

Even in episode 2 of this season, when stood before the Starks and Dany, he states that 'he would do it all again'. He 'fought for the living' because the living included him, Cersei and Tyrion.

His whole world, however, always revolved around Cersei. He knew he was going to his death, but that's how he'd lived his life...at her side.

Right. The world is getting ready to end... he saw it coming. You return to who you truly love in that situation. 

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9 minutes ago, Flaming_Telepath said:

Jamie's 'redemption' was never that.

Even in episode 2 of this season, when stood before the Starks and Dany, he states that 'he would do it all again'. He 'fought for the living' because the living included him, Cersei and Tyrion.

His whole world, however, always revolved around Cersei. He knew he was going to his death, but that's how he'd lived his life...at her side.

Another reason why I can't wait for the show to be done and to get the real redemption story arc from the books. 

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1 minute ago, Kon_Jelly said:

Another reason why I can't wait for the show to be done and to get the real redemption story arc from the books. 

I think there's disappointment with this episode (and this season) either because (a) it wasn't what the viewers wanted or (b) it's not what they imagined Martin would do.

I can understand both, but I think it should be judged on its own internal consistency and in that regard, it 90% of the time works.

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4 minutes ago, Flaming_Telepath said:

I think there's disappointment with this episode (and this season) either because (a) it wasn't what the viewers wanted or (b) it's not what they imagined Martin would do.

I can understand both, but I think it should be judged on its own internal consistency and in that regard, it 90% of the time works.

I have to agree in that the writers left many breadcrumbs on characters we hoped had a more positive meaning that was really meant to trip up viewers in the end with the reality they never changed.

I don't see Season 8 as a bust. I do see missed opportunities in telling a deeper story, with the same schemes and surprises that have made Game of Thrones great. Find out Varys and Qyburn had been working together for years would have been so fitting, knowing such alliances occur out of necessity. Or even the Golden Company theory they were there only to protect the Iron Bank investment through supporting Dany would have been fitting as well.

But all good things come to an end. HBO couldn't tackle everything in that last season.

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4 minutes ago, Flaming_Telepath said:

I think there's disappointment with this episode (and this season) either because (a) it wasn't what the viewers wanted or (b) it's not what they imagined Martin would do.

I can understand both, but I think it should be judged on its own internal consistency and in that regard, it 90% of the time works.

I disagree. What the viewers want is irrelevant, but that seems to be what the writers are trying to give.  For instance, book readers have been clamoring for "Cleganebowl" for years now, so the show delivers for the fans but in a way that is inconsistent with the character. 

We also know that GRRM has come out specifically against characters like the Night King, and against storylines like Lord of the Rings where killing one guy ends the entire conflict, and yet that is what we got from the show.

The problem with this season is the inconsistancies the show has given to many of the characters, the disregard of logic, and the tossing aside of the lore of the world. They're rushing to an end and it shows. 

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Just now, Bosco685 said:

But all good things come to an end. HBO couldn't tackle everything in that last season.

HBO didn't want to tackle it in one season - they asked D&D to do another season or two. D&D wanted to make Star Wars movies and a show where the confederacy wins the civil war, so they said no. 

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4 minutes ago, Kon_Jelly said:

HBO didn't want to tackle it in one season - they asked D&D to do another season or two. D&D wanted to make Star Wars movies and a show where the confederacy wins the civil war, so they said no. 

It looks like GRRM wanted it to go on much longer. But the show-runners knew years ago it would be all of 7-8 seasons. Not just recently.

Game of Thrones season 8: Will there be another series? Is there a season 9?

Quote

Martin is still in the process of writing the novels and the television series has surpassed the source material. However, the American author has told Game of Thrones showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss how he wants the story to conclude, which means the TV series will spoil the ending for book readers.

 

Despite the series coming to an end, Martin previously said he would have liked Game of Thrones the TV show to continue. Speaking to Variety, he said: “We could’ve gone 11, 12, 13 seasons."

 

“David and Dan have been saying for like five seasons that seven seasons is all they would go.” He went on to say: “We got them to go to eight but not any more than that."

 

“There was a period like five years ago when they were saying seven seasons and I was saying 10 seasons and they won, they’re the ones actually working on it.”

 

Also, Samwell Tarly actor John Bradley told Digital Spy: "We can't do any more seasons after this one, narratively."

 

"But it would've been nice to delay the ending a little bit, for our own happiness!” He added: "It was always going to be hard to say goodbye to it, but I think it was even harder than people imagined it was going to be."

 

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2 hours ago, Doc McCoy said:

I wanted to love this episode, but just hated it.

With the exception of the Clegane brothers and their fight to the death, along with Cersei’s stubbornness & denial in the face of utter defeat, once again it felt like the writers have forgotten who these characters are.

For Jon to just stand there as Varys is burned seems like the complete opposite of what someone raised by Ned Stark would do.  They’ve neutered the character since they paired him with Daenerys.

She, meanwhile, has been flipped on her head.  This is a woman that delayed her ascension to the throne on several occasions to protect the innocent and overthrow those holding the yoke.  Yet now she just disregards the surrendering of King’s Landing to go burn innocents because of the perception that a few people my love Jon more?  Screw just flying to the Red Keep to get Cersei, screw trying to preserve the city that you’ve been desperately trying to rule all these years, screw the thought of earning the people’s love.

Then there’s Jaime.  They just threw out his entire redemption arc to go back to Cersei, have a ridiculous fight with Euron and then just seemingly die in a pile of rubble.  All the while dragging down Brienne’s arc by taking her from the first woman to be knighted to a blubbering mess.

Finally, despite killing the Night King, Arya was just transformed back into Little Arya Underfoot, running from soldiers, getting literally caught “underfoot”.  

I’m guessing Daenerys has made her list now, but she better not have to go through Jon to do it.

That's a damn near perfect synopsis of how I feel.

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