GAME OF THRONES Rules Thread 7 7

[Bosco685]

5 minutes ago, Kon_Jelly said:

True, but I read that HBO had asked them more recently to extend the show and they declined. I think it was after season 6? I'll try and find it. 

No worries.

It just seems like the show-runners had a set plan. And they pretty much stuck to that plan, no matter the money offered to them or additional shows.

[jaybuck43]

46 minutes ago, Unca Ben said:

I haven't read the books, so that may be the case.  But Dani has shown the propensity to take no prisoners throughout the show and to use any means necessary to achieve her goals.  Why would she think the people of Westeros would love her?  The daughter of the Mad King, returning with two brutal and savage foreign armies to take back by force what she believes is rightfully hers?   Even when she finds out that there is another with an equal or better claim to the throne, she pursues her goal.
For me, Dani has always been about Dani.  Her ideal of "freeing the people" is just a way to use a good motive to hide a bad one.  She conquered a good portion of Essos before moving her sights to Westeros.  She wants to rule the world, not just Westeros.  And if someone doesn't bend the knee they're toast.  That would've included Jon, but he submitted to her to save the North.

She's a tyrant.  She was always headed that way.

Not really. Remember back to when she was Khalessi, as Drogo was riding through conquering lands in essos to build up slaves to sell to the slavers in exchange for ships. Dany sees Drogo’s men savaging women so to stop it she took them as slaves. She didn’t demand they bend the knee, she wanted to protect those suffering as she had as a child.  When they go to astapor to buy the unsullied she offers one of her dragons and a bunch of stuff in exchange for 8000 unsullied. They agree. There’s no issue, no refusal to bend the knee. rather she distastes the slaving so she has her dragons and the unsullied destroy the leaders and she frees all the slaves.  Then they go to yunkai and again she doesn’t require they bend the knee, rather just free their slaves. She then sacks the city that night knowing they will refuse.  She then takes Meereen again freeing the slaves and then remains there to rule to avoid the same issue that happened in Yunkai. When the sons of the harpy break out, and again I keep saying this it was covered much better in the books, dany takes hostages of 2 of the first born from each noblemen to have, hoping it will stop the attacks. When they don’t end, she can’t bring herself to execute any of the hostages.  Her character is one born of violence who has been abused and taken advantage of her entire life and even then she only seeks to do good or at least her version of good. She wants to free the slaves (not have them bend the knee but rather free them) she wants to break the wheel, they have done a poor handling of turning her heel. It doesn’t fit her character. Everyone keeps saying o man it’s so evil what she did to the tarleys except 1) she hasn’t ever met samwell so it’s not like she knows who they are 2) offers them Several chances to save their life (including allowing them to save grace and keep their lands and title by bending the knee) that’s not crazy, that’s a good leader. 3) she’s trying to save lives by showing that if you don’t accept her offer there are consequences which will hopefully have people take the knee and end the fighting.

[Bosco685]

2 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

The Episode 5 'Inside The Episode' video, revealing some of the show-runners' thoughts.

 

Really interesting point made by one of the show-runners on what finally pushed Dany over the edge to go so extreme (3:25).

"And she sees the Red Keep which is to her the home that her family built when they first came to this country three-hundred years ago. It's in that moment on the walls of King's Landing where she is looking at that symbol of all that was taken from her when she makes the decision to make this personal!"

Wow!

Edited May 13, 2019 by Bosco685

[Doc McCoy]

2 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Really interesting point made by one of the show-runners on what finally pushed Dany over the edge to go so extreme (3:25).

"And she sees the Red Keep which is to her the home that her family built when they first came to this country three-hundred years ago. It's in that moment on the walls of King's Landing where she is looking at that symbol of all that was taken from her when she makes the decision to make this personal!"

Wow!

If you have to explain your story and your story-telling decisions outside of the context of the story itself rather than just letting the story speak for itself then you failed in your narrative.  

[chrisco37]

USA Today article on why the episode was garbage:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2019/05/12/game-thrones-recap-season-8-episode-5-daenerys-arya-tyrion-jaime-cersei/1166469001/

Quote

'Game of Thrones' recap: The series just burned itself to the ground

What is left for "Game of Thrones"? 

Nothing, really. For viewers who have stuck around for eight seasons of the HBO fantasy series, all that's left after the penultimate episode is ash and a bad taste. When Daenerys Targaryen lived up to her terrible family's reputation and burned King's Landing to the ground, she incinerated the last hope for "Thrones" along with it. 

Where to begin with "The Bells," an absolute disaster of an episode that exhibited every bad habit the series' writers have ever had? They threw out their own rule book (suddenly the scorpions don't work and Drogon can burn everything?) to pursue gross spectacle. 

Character and substance were left by the wayside so that the plot could go where the writers wanted. The pace was rushed in the beginning, painfully lagging by the end. The -script created plot devices and conflicts out of thin air (no really, when were the bells ever so important?), relished in violence and let a main character survive beyond any reasonable odds. (How many buildings have to fall on Arya before she stays down?) "Bells" is somehow both fan service and indulgence in all the tropes that fans hate. 

Had this episode taken place just before the finale of Season 4 or 5, it might be forgivable, but with just over an hour left in the series, it's far too late to make a mistake of this magnitude. There's no time to switch gears, because Mad Queen Dany (and, apparently Arya's inexplicable survival and possible revenge) is what "Thrones" will always have been about. This disappointment is what we've all been waiting for. 

The bigger they are, the harder they fall, and few TV shows have gotten quite as big as "Thrones." Even fewer have failed so spectacularly for so many viewers.

Theoretically, the series has one last hour to redeem itself. And maybe some fans hold out hope that the finale can wrap things up in a way that makes emotional and logical sense. But betting on "Thrones" to fix itself is really just doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result. Just like Cersei, Tyrion and the rest, we should know better by now.

One last little bird

The latest member of the “suddenly I’m very dumb” club is Varys, whose campaign to supplant Dany with Jon goes comically wrong in the blink of an eye. We barely have time to register that he has a little bird spy again and is writing letters about Jon’s true parentage before he is found out.

Dany has figured out that Jon told Sansa who told Tyrion who told Varys about Jon's parentage, and is angry at both Jon and Tyrion. (How did she find out? How much time has even passed since Missandei's death? Who knows or cares, apparently?!) 

Dany burns Varys alive for his betrayal, and it's rather underwhelming. Varys survived so many monarchs, only to be finally killed because he was, what, writing too loudly? It was a poor end for one of the series’ best characters.

I have a bad feeling about this

Dany and Grey Worm share a brief moment mourning over Missandei's slave collar (though why she would bring that to Westeros is baffling), before Jon arrives for an "I told you so" from his aunt. Dany complains that she doesn't have love from the people of the Seven Kingdoms, only fear, and even though Jon says he loves her, he recoils from her kiss. (Finally Emilia Clarke and Kit Harington's lack of chemistry is useful).  

Tyrion begs for the lives of the people of King's Landing, and gets Dany to agree to spare them if they surrender by ringing the city bells. His obsession with saving commoners doesn't make much sense, but I suppose someone needed to foreshadow Dany's reign of terror. Dany also mentions that Jaime was captured trying to sneak into the city, and tells Tyrion if he fails her again, it will be the last time. 

Instead of, say, following the orders of the queen he's so intent on supporting, Tyrion frees Jaime in the hope that he'll convince Cersei to flee the city. The brothers hug before leaving each other for good. 

Unlike Jaime, Arya and the Hound manage to sneak into the city easily, perhaps the last time she has to declare herself Arya Stark to get past a guard.

What kind of fire burns stone?

The morning of the battle dawns and everyone's holding their breath and their positions: Jon and the allied troops outside the front gates staring down the Golden Company, while Euron and the Iron Fleet are in the Blackwater with their scorpions pointed at the sky. Cersei's troops look menacing and more impressive than the raggedy band of northerners and surviving Unsullied and Dothraki that Dany has assembled.

At this point the episode spends copious time showing us all the innocent civilians Dany is about to murder, including a mother and daughter who are given enough screen time for us to know that they will be this episode's symbolic sufferers. 

And then Dany and Drogon fly down. 

After being ineffectual at the Battle of Winterfell and against the Iron Fleet, Drogon has suddenly become a weapon of mass destruction that no scorpion crossbow can hit. Like every other plot device on "Thrones" the past few seasons, the dragons were useless, until they were needed. 

Drogon lights up the Iron Fleet with ease, before moving to the King's Landing battlements, eventually burning the Golden Company from behind before Dany's army charges. 

As Dany's forces attack, Cersei watched from the Red Keep, but loses her trademark sneer. Qyburn informs her that all the scorpions have been destroyed (truly how does he know that?), the Iron Fleet is burning and the Golden Company has been slaughtered. Cersei claims that the Red Keep has never fallen, but her confidence is failing. 

At this point the battle is basically won. Jon, Davos and Grey Worm's battalion comes across a group of Lannister soldiers who lay down their weapons. The soldiers and the civilians all start shouting for someone to ring the bells in surrender, and after a comical amount of buildup they ring, much to Jon and Tyrion's relief. 

But that doesn't last long. Dany looks at the Red Keep in the distance, and then lets loose fire and blood. 

Not the mad queen we need, but the one we deserve

In an alternate timeline, George R.R. Martin would have finished writing "A Song of Ice and Fire" before it was ever adapted to series. His seventh and final book would have been hundreds of pages that offered copious explanation for its hero's descent into madness and cruelty. And that long, complex and thoughtful book would be adapted into far more than six episodes of television. 

The problem with Dany going full Mad Queen isn't that she used to be a hero or that the show never foreshadowed it. There have been seeds, all the way back to Season 1 when she burned Mirri Maz Duur alive as vengeance for Khal Drogo's death. She has long been vain, ruthless and completely convinced of her own brilliance. 

But the show spent far more time making Dany a hero, if a rather boring one. Making her Mad Queen Dany now is rushed, unearned and emotionless.  

In the moment, it's also not clear what made her snap. Missandei? Rhaegal? Not getting her way? Being bored because she won the battle too quickly? Why did she destroy the whole city instead of going straight to Cersei? Where does she expect to live after destroying the castle her ancestors built?

More pressingly, what does Dany's turn even say about the show, thematically? That we're doomed to repeat the mistakes of our families? Dany's "madness" or whatever we want to call it is nothing like Aerys, who heard voices and acted out of fear and paranoia. Viserys was cruel but also petty and weak. Rhaegar wasn't mad or vicious at all. Hewas short-sighted but noble. Dany is just lamely sadistic. 

Have you ever seen a city sacked?

As Dany burns down King's Landing, the allied forces unleash their inner monsters, too. In a far more flagrant breach of character than Dany's rushed madness, Grey Worm, the most restrained man in Essos or Westeros, kills unarmed men in a rage. The allied forces begin to sack the city. 

Jon tries and fails to pull his soldiers back. Davos, too, tries to save the civilians, but Drogon's fire starts bringing down all the buildings, and the city is increasingly a pile of ash and bodies. 

Jaime, meanwhile, is trying desperately to get inside the Red Keep, and runs into Euron, who somehow made it to shore. Instead of trying to save himself, Euron challenges Jaime to a duel. Jaime kills him, but not before Euron stabs Jaime twice, wounds that really should have been fatal. 

The Hound and Arya make it into the castle, but the structure is starting to crumble. The Hound pleads with Arya to save herself, and not be as consumed by vengeance and rage as he is. For once, she listens, and gives him the gift of calling him Sandor before they part. 

The Hound finds his brother with Cersei, Qyburn and Cersei's remaining guard as they're trying to escape. Gregor kills Qyburn before dueling with the Hound, while Cersei slips away. 

The Hound and the Mountain fight, and the former is wildly outmatched by his big brother. Their duel is intercut with Arya trying to escape the city as buildings crumble. The Hound eventually kills the Mountain by pulling him out a window into a burning abyss, while Arya is rescued from being trampled by the woman we saw earlier. 

Things fall apart 

Jaime finds Cersei as she's alone and crying. They embrace and he takes her through the secret passage a young Arya once got lost in and Varys and Illyrio (remember him?) once schemed in.

But the tunnel has caved in, and they're stuck. Cersei breaks down, screaming that she doesn't want to die. Jaime reaffirms his love and holds her as they're crushed by the crumbling castle. 

Outside, Arya is barely standing. Stones fall on her a handful of times but she somehow survives, eventually finding a group of people, including the woman who helped her earlier. Arya tries to help them, but just as they're running away from the rubble, Drogon flies overhead and lights up the street. Arya, somehow, is the only person left standing, while the woman and her daughter are burned down to their skeletons. 

Arya is helped out of the city by deus ex white horse, who is conveniently hanging out on the street where she ended up. It's clear that, although she swore off vengeance a few minutes ago to the Hound, Arya is going to make Dany pay for what she did to the city. And that, apparently, is how "Thrones" is going to end. 

 

 

 

[Bosco685]

7 minutes ago, Doc McCoy said:

If you have to explain your story and your story-telling decisions outside of the context of the story itself rather than just letting the story speak for itself then you failed in your narrative.  

You mean like the Russo Brothers have had to do with Infinity War and Endgame? Those have gone over massively, yet the directors and writers have had to explain extensive details.

It's going to happen when you have a very complex story. Yet if you watch the video of her expression at that point in time, it's all there. Her feeling all the pressure of betrayal and pain over the years, represented by one big symbol: The Red Keep.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Bosco685

[Catwomancomics]

5 hours ago, Unca Ben said:

This is in character with Dani's journey.  I felt she was broken from nearly the beginning.  If not for Tyrion's advice (which she somewhat followed back then) during the siege of Meereen in Slaver's Bay, she would have "crucified all the masters, set their fleets on fire, killed all their soldiers and returned their cities to dirt"  (her words).  She has shown no restraint in killing anyone who opposes her, or anyone who doesn't "bend the knee" (the murder of Samwell Tarly's dad and brother) - even her cold comment in season one after her brother was killed by the Dothraki - "He wasn't a real Targaryen" - because he didn't survive his "golden crown".  Granted, her brother was a bad guy, treated her extremely poorly, and contributed to her psychological condition, but still, he was her brother and her reaction foreshadowed her later fracturing.  This theme has been carried throughout her story.

I never liked her (much) and look forward to next week.

Dani's comment about her brother was that " He wasn't a real dragon " beacause he was burned/killed by the heat of the gold crown (fire). Even Jon Snow was burned by fire when he grabbed the hot lantern to throw at the wight that was after his Lord Commander Mormont.

Edit: I think Dani makes the comment because her brother kept saying he was a dragon.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Catwomancomics

[Doc McCoy]

 

9 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

You mean like the Russo Brothers have had to do with Infinity War and Endgame? Those have gone over massively, yet the directors and writers have had to explain extensive details.

It's going to happen when you have a very complex story. Yet if you watch the video of her expression at that point in time, it's all there. Her feeling all the pressure of betrayal and pain over the years, represented by one big symbol: The Red Keep.

 

6 minutes ago, chrisco37 said:

Not the mad queen we need, but the one we deserve

In an alternate timeline, George R.R. Martin would have finished writing "A Song of Ice and Fire" before it was ever adapted to series. His seventh and final book would have been hundreds of pages that offered copious explanation for its hero's descent into madness and cruelty. And that long, complex and thoughtful book would be adapted into far more than six episodes of television. 

The problem with Dany going full Mad Queen isn't that she used to be a hero or that the show never foreshadowed it. There have been seeds, all the way back to Season 1 when she burned Mirri Maz Duur alive as vengeance for Khal Drogo's death. She has long been vain, ruthless and completely convinced of her own brilliance. 

But the show spent far more time making Dany a hero, if a rather boring one. Making her Mad Queen Dany now is rushed, unearned and emotionless.  

In the moment, it's also not clear what made her snap. Missandei? Rhaegal? Not getting her way? Being bored because she won the battle too quickly? Why did she destroy the whole city instead of going straight to Cersei? Where does she expect to live after destroying the castle her ancestors built?

More pressingly, what does Dany's turn even say about the show, thematically? That we're doomed to repeat the mistakes of our families? Dany's "madness" or whatever we want to call it is nothing like Aerys, who heard voices and acted out of fear and paranoia. Viserys was cruel but also petty and weak. Rhaegar wasn't mad or vicious at all. Hewas short-sighted but noble. Dany is just lamely sadistic. 

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, Doc McCoy said:

Not the mad queen we need, but the one we deserve

In an alternate timeline, George R.R. Martin would have finished writing "A Song of Ice and Fire" before it was ever adapted to series. His seventh and final book would have been hundreds of pages that offered copious explanation for its hero's descent into madness and cruelty. And that long, complex and thoughtful book would be adapted into far more than six episodes of television. 

The problem with Dany going full Mad Queen isn't that she used to be a hero or that the show never foreshadowed it. There have been seeds, all the way back to Season 1 when she burned Mirri Maz Duur alive as vengeance for Khal Drogo's death. She has long been vain, ruthless and completely convinced of her own brilliance. 

But the show spent far more time making Dany a hero, if a rather boring one. Making her Mad Queen Dany now is rushed, unearned and emotionless.  

In the moment, it's also not clear what made her snap. Missandei? Rhaegal? Not getting her way? Being bored because she won the battle too quickly? Why did she destroy the whole city instead of going straight to Cersei? Where does she expect to live after destroying the castle her ancestors built?

More pressingly, what does Dany's turn even say about the show, thematically? That we're doomed to repeat the mistakes of our families? Dany's "madness" or whatever we want to call it is nothing like Aerys, who heard voices and acted out of fear and paranoia. Viserys was cruel but also petty and weak. Rhaegar wasn't mad or vicious at all. Hewas short-sighted but noble. Dany is just lamely sadistic. 

It's a thought. But after all the pain and betrayal Dany and her family experienced (real or imagined in certain cases), a young character like this can only handle so much before snapping. After the past few episodes, this was her camel's back moment.

[RedRaven]

I enjoyed last night's episode but that was due in no small measure to having my expectations completely crushed by episodes 8.3 and 8.4

At this point I've given up on story and I'm just in it for the spectacle and last nights episode delivered that at least.

[Doc McCoy]

Just now, Bosco685 said:

It's a thought. But after all the pain and betrayal Dany and her family experienced (real or imagined in certain cases), a young character like this can only handle so much before snapping. After the past few episodes, this was her camel's back moment.

I could buy into that if they had taken the time to build toward it more fully, but as the USA today article states, they spent so much time making Dany a hero, that they ultimately failed to address what would and could make her snap properly.  It just feels like they had to get her to this point so they are throwing it all out there as quickly as possible.

[Flaming_Telepath]

That USA Today review?

They haven't been watching the show.

Just one of many stupid observations...

'In a far more flagrant breach of character than Dany's rushed madness, Grey Worm, the most restrained man in Essos or Westeros, kills unarmed men in a rage.'

He may have been restrained, but that was before his entire world was stolen from him. As an Unsullied, he was previously an automatom but was given freedom by Dany and a reason to live by Missandei. He and Missandei have already concluded that there is nothing for them in Westeros, that they are viewed with distrust and hatred, and that they are going to leave. Kings Landing is where his life died, the soldiers of no consequence to him other than they serve the woman who slaughtered his love in cold blood.

These characters are not supposed to be paragons of virtue...that's not GoT and never has been...so why are 'reviewers' shocked when they act on base instincts?

[Kon_Jelly]

2 hours ago, Doc McCoy said:

I wanted to love this episode, but just hated it.

With the exception of the Clegane brothers and their fight to the death, along with Cersei’s stubbornness & denial in the face of utter defeat, once again it felt like the writers have forgotten who these characters are.

For Jon to just stand there as Varys is burned seems like the complete opposite of what someone raised by Ned Stark would do.  They’ve neutered the character since they paired him with Daenerys.

She, meanwhile, has been flipped on her head.  This is a woman that delayed her ascension to the throne on several occasions to protect the innocent and overthrow those holding the yoke.  Yet now she just disregards the surrendering of King’s Landing to go burn innocents because of the perception that a few people my love Jon more?  Screw just flying to the Red Keep to get Cersei, screw trying to preserve the city that you’ve been desperately trying to rule all these years, screw the thought of earning the people’s love.

Then there’s Jaime.  They just threw out his entire redemption arc to go back to Cersei, have a ridiculous fight with Euron and then just seemingly die in a pile of rubble.  All the while dragging down Brienne’s arc by taking her from the first woman to be knighted to a blubbering mess.

Finally, despite killing the Night King, Arya was just transformed back into Little Arya Underfoot, running from soldiers, getting literally caught “underfoot”.  

I’m guessing Daenerys has made her list now, but she better not have to go through Jon to do it.

Agreed.  Except on the Clegane bros - while the fight was good it made no sense that the Mountain would all of a sudden gain agency and defy Cersei's instructions after no hint of that being inside of him.

If they fully embrace the Mad Queen arc I can see Dany killing Jon, cementing her spot on Arya's list. 

[chrisco37]

Right.  I don't have a problem with where she ended up.  As others have mentioned, it's a very "Game of Thrones" turn.   But, they really needed to build to it for it to work.  They didn't and it didn't.   Nothing worked for me in the episode.  

What about the Cersei prophecy?   It was right about everything, except her death.  ????

Grey Worm turning heel as well.  ????

 

[Kon_Jelly]

Just now, Flaming_Telepath said:

That USA Today review?

They haven't been watching the show.

Just one of many stupid observations...

'In a far more flagrant breach of character than Dany's rushed madness, Grey Worm, the most restrained man in Essos or Westeros, kills unarmed men in a rage.'

He may have been restrained, but that was before his entire world was stolen from him. As an Unsullied, he was previously an automatom but was given freedom by Dany and a reason to live by Missandei. He and Missandei have already concluded that there is nothing for them in Westeros, that they are viewed with distrust and hatred, and that they are going to leave. Kings Landing is where his life died, the soldiers of no consequence to him other than they serve the woman who slaughtered his love in cold blood.

These characters are not supposed to be paragons of virtue...that's not GoT and never has been...so why are 'reviewers' shocked when they act on base instincts?

Because in Grey Worm's case his base instincts were trained out of him. He's not supposed to be a "paragon of virtue" - he's supposed to be unemotional/methodical in battle. 

Now if you had said that he took Dany's continued attack as an order to continue fighting, then I could see your argument (I may not agree, but it would make sense). The thought that he went on a rage killing spree is completely opposite of his character, though. 

[awakeintheashes]

11 minutes ago, Doc McCoy said:

16 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

It's a thought. But after all the pain and betrayal Dany and her family experienced (real or imagined in certain cases), a young character like this can only handle so much before snapping. After the past few episodes, this was her camel's back moment.

I could buy into that if they had taken the time to build toward it more fully, but as the USA today article states, they spent so much time making Dany a hero, that they ultimately failed to address what would and could make her snap properly.  It just feels like they had to get her to this point so they are throwing it all out there as quickly as possible.

I liked the episode and have liked this season, but I do understand what people do not like about it...

However, I find it amusing that USA Today, a newspaper that serves to synthesize news down to easy-to-read-and-comprehend stories, is critiquing the final season as not being complex and sophisticated.

Edited May 13, 2019 by awakeintheashes

[Doc McCoy]

2 minutes ago, Flaming_Telepath said:

That USA Today review?

They haven't been watching the show.

Just one of many stupid observations...

'In a far more flagrant breach of character than Dany's rushed madness, Grey Worm, the most restrained man in Essos or Westeros, kills unarmed men in a rage.'

He may have been restrained, but that was before his entire world was stolen from him. As an Unsullied, he was previously an automatom but was given freedom by Dany and a reason to live by Missandei. He and Missandei have already concluded that there is nothing for them in Westeros, that they are viewed with distrust and hatred, and that they are going to leave. Kings Landing is where his life died, the soldiers of no consequence to him other than they serve the woman who slaughtered his love in cold blood.

These characters are not supposed to be paragons of virtue...that's not GoT and never has been...so why are 'reviewers' shocked when they act on base instincts?

I agree there, I can buy into his reaction because they properly built to it.  Daenery's reaction and motivations lacked the nuance that was given to Grey Worm.

3 minutes ago, Kon_Jelly said:

Agreed.  Except on the Clegane bros - while the fight was good it made no sense that the Mountain would all of a sudden gain agency and defy Cersei's instructions after no hint of that being inside of him.

If they fully embrace the Mad Queen arc I can see Dany killing Jon, cementing her spot on Arya's list. 

I just have to chalk that up to their mutual hatred for each other overriding whatever programing Qyburn had given him.  

[Bosco685]

12 minutes ago, Doc McCoy said:

I could buy into that if they had taken the time to build toward it more fully, but as the USA today article states, they spent so much time making Dany a hero, that they ultimately failed to address what would and could make her snap properly.  It just feels like they had to get her to this point so they are throwing it all out there as quickly as possible.

Oh, I get it.

But I wonder if that was the show-runners throwing many people off the trail by presenting a rosy picture for a period of time with breadcrumbs hinting at not all was as happy and trustworthy as the scenes appeared.

That I could see as a possibility to then hit us all with an explosive scene Dany was going to tear into King's Landing the entire time. It just took one bad life to get there.

[Kon_Jelly]

2 minutes ago, Doc McCoy said:

I just have to chalk that up to their mutual hatred for each other overriding whatever programing Qyburn had given him.  

Yeah that is one of the parts that I could easily forgive had it been my only issue with the episode. As it stands it's just another point in the bad writing column (albeit a minor one). 

[PunisherPunisherPunisher]

The Mountain is a zombie lol...The Hound did everything he could