GAME OF THRONES Rules Thread 7 7

[fantastic_four]

The historical and strategic case for burning King's Landing to the ground:

Quote

To appreciate what happened to King’s Landing, we need to move beyond the tactical and operational levels and think strategically. At the Army War College we think about strategy within an “Ends-Ways-Means” framework. Team Dragon’s Means include the army and the dragon; its Ways involve a siege or assault to destroy Cersei’s forces. But its Ends are not just the capture and defeat of Cersei Lannister: They are installing Daenerys Targaryen on the Iron Throne and giving her the ability to rule all of Westeros.

Political considerations necessarily infuse strategic calculations. For Queen Daenerys Targaryen, seizure of King’s Landing and the deposition of the usurper Cersei no longer cuts it. Aegon Targaryen (Jon Snow) has a better claim to the throne; he has a base of operations, a narrative of legitimacy, and his own army. Even if Jon doesn’t want to be King, people who dislike Daenerys will fight in his name. Dany is no longer the presumptive Targaryen heir and can no longer rely on her family’s right to the throne.

She can rely on Drogon, however. Her claim to the throne rests on demonstrating the power of her dragon. With Rhaegal—the dragon Jon had ridden—dead, she is uniquely capable of making such a claim. Daenerys need not be “mad” in order to see political value in burning King’s Landing to the ground. We impute a desire to burn things to hereditary mental instability in the Targaryens, but rational political calculation can lead her (and perhaps her Targaryen forebears) to the same conclusions. In terms that Thomas Schelling would surely appreciate, the destruction of King’s Landing represents a message of commitment on the part of Daenerys Targaryen to the Seven Kingdoms. It also represents her political maturation insofar as she is willing to do to King’s Landing what she could not imagine doing to the slaver-cities of Astapor and Yunkai.

 

Edited May 14, 2019 by fantastic_four

[jaybuck43]

2 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

More than a few. So I can see why GRRM recommended HBO go for so many more seasons. Mine I want to know more about:

• Who was the First Man that was transformed into the Night King, and what was his backstory and final goal (other than to destroy all men)?
• With all those baby boys from Craster converted to Whites, were they the generals of the White Army or was there something else going on? How did that deal even come about between them?
• What's the deal with the entire Azor Ahai prophecy, and was it only concerning The Others or is it for any threat to the world? If the latter, could this be Dany now turning evil, so therefore she is the threat?

There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.

• What's with Sandor having fire-visions? Was he meant for something more, or was there the possibility his brother had been consumed by a darker influence and through Qyburn's tampering had opened the door for a new threat to the world that the Lord of Light empowered Sandor to overcome and save the world?

The night king creation was a D&D fake thing. 1) the night king is not the leader of the Others, he was a nights watch commander (believed to be a stark) who was seduced by an Other (never stated explicitly but talked about her pale white skin and cold touch etc) he ruined the nights watch until he was killed. 2) the children of the forest did not create the others. The war between the first men and the children of the forest had been settled and they were living in harmony for hundreds of years before the long night. They, along with the Andles worked together to fight back, and with Azor Ahai stopped the long night. 

The motivation of the others, white walkers, night king etc has been mentioned. They are there to bring death. They are the flip side to light, birth etc. their goal is to kill everything and snuff the light of the world out.

crasters children were turned into generals, not the wights. Those are mindless beings raised from the dead. “The generals” aka actual white walkers were the children from Crasters. Craster is the child of an oath breaker of the nights watch. He (for several reasons) did not want his sons. He left them out in the elements for them to die, I don’t even know if there actually is a deal between craster and the walkers other then the fact that they see value in letting him live so they can turn the babies.  In the books they never turn any babies, the old wives of craster mention that the others take the babies and they become one of them but the scene in the show is pure fan service and even a nod to the books (the craster baby who is turned in the show becomes the 13th general of the night king, who in the books is the 13th lord commander of the nights watch.)

The Azor Ahai prophecy pertains to the long night so yes it’s entirely tied to the walkers. Things like worging, magic, resurrection, prophecies etc have largely been dropped in the show. The dropped the most important part of cercei’s Prophecy (go back and watch it in season 5, they never mention the most important part of her dying with her little brothers hands wrapped around her neck). They dropped Azor Ahai for the most part other then for plot reasons (Melisandre backing Stannis and killing his daughter, Dany thinking she’s the worlds savior etc) worging has been entirely dropped from the show (it’s super duper important for Arya in particular) they’ve only used the greensight to advance plot lines. 

[Bosco685]

56 minutes ago, jaybuck43 said:

The night king creation was a D&D fake thing. 1) the night king is not the leader of the Others, he was a nights watch commander (believed to be a stark) who was seduced by an Other (never stated explicitly but talked about her pale white skin and cold touch etc) he ruined the nights watch until he was killed. 2) the children of the forest did not create the others. The war between the first men and the children of the forest had been settled and they were living in harmony for hundreds of years before the long night. They, along with the Andles worked together to fight back, and with Azor Ahai stopped the long night. 

The motivation of the others, white walkers, night king etc has been mentioned. They are there to bring death. They are the flip side to light, birth etc. their goal is to kill everything and snuff the light of the world out.

crasters children were turned into generals, not the wights. Those are mindless beings raised from the dead. “The generals” aka actual white walkers were the children from Crasters. Craster is the child of an oath breaker of the nights watch. He (for several reasons) did not want his sons. He left them out in the elements for them to die, I don’t even know if there actually is a deal between craster and the walkers other then the fact that they see value in letting him live so they can turn the babies.  In the books they never turn any babies, the old wives of craster mention that the others take the babies and they become one of them but the scene in the show is pure fan service and even a nod to the books (the craster baby who is turned in the show becomes the 13th general of the night king, who in the books is the 13th lord commander of the nights watch.)

The Azor Ahai prophecy pertains to the long night so yes it’s entirely tied to the walkers. Things like worging, magic, resurrection, prophecies etc have largely been dropped in the show. The dropped the most important part of cercei’s Prophecy (go back and watch it in season 5, they never mention the most important part of her dying with her little brothers hands wrapped around her neck). They dropped Azor Ahai for the most part other then for plot reasons (Melisandre backing Stannis and killing his daughter, Dany thinking she’s the worlds savior etc) worging has been entirely dropped from the show (it’s super duper important for Arya in particular) they’ve only used the greensight to advance plot lines. 

I had no idea the Night King wasn't even in the books until a few episodes went by after his appearance. It surprised me they introduced a major character like that which deviated so much from the source. But I had read something about the books' reference to a NIGHT'S KING that lived thousands of years before these stories, with his White Queen.

The Craster babies were all the generals. Interesting. Though I guess that means with their transformation they were gifted with instant knowledge and awareness of an adult to serve the Night King. I guess that meant they became an adult instantly?! 

On the Cersei prophecy (Maggy the Frog is the actress from Last of the Mohicans).

"The king will have 20 children, and you will have three. Gold, their crowns. Gold, their shrouds."

A shame how they gave up on these of these details.

[jaybuck43]

14 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

I had no idea the Night King wasn't even in the books until a few episodes went by after his appearance. It surprised me they introduced a major character like that which deviated so much from the source. But I had read something about the books' reference to a NIGHT'S KING that lived thousands of years before these stories, with his White Queen.

The Craster babies were all the generals. Interesting. Though I guess that means with their transformation they were gifted with instant knowledge and awareness of an adult to serve the Night King. I guess that meant they became an adult instantly?! 

On the Cersei prophecy (Maggy the Frog is the actress from Last of the Mohicans).

"The king will have 20 children, and you will have three. Gold, their crowns. Gold, their shrouds."

A shame how they gave up on these of these details.

We have no idea how many generals there actually are, or if they age instantly.  I don't believe they do.  Here is the Night King in S4E4.

Like I said, 12 Generals behind him (out of focus) and Craster's last son becomes #13.  However, we see at least 4 White Walkers killed on screen between this episode and the Battle of Winterfell/Battle of Ice and Fire, I believe all in Season 6 and 7 (I'm not 100% sure on this, but I know it's after this episode).  When the Night's King enters the gods' wood to kill Bran, he has.... 12 generals.  So either this is a REALLY BAD oversight by D&D,  and he should have only had 9 (or 8 if Craster's last son hasn't aged yet).. or there are way more than 13 generals, and they just showed a few on screen at any given time.

[Bosco685]

14 minutes ago, jaybuck43 said:

We have no idea how many generals there actually are, or if they age instantly.  I don't believe they do.  Here is the Night King in S4E4.

Like I said, 12 Generals behind him (out of focus) and Craster's last son becomes #13.  However, we see at least 4 White Walkers killed on screen between this episode and the Battle of Winterfell/Battle of Ice and Fire, I believe all in Season 6 and 7 (I'm not 100% sure on this, but I know it's after this episode).  When the Night's King enters the gods' wood to kill Bran, he has.... 12 generals.  So either this is a REALLY BAD oversight by D&D,  and he should have only had 9 (or 8 if Craster's last son hasn't aged yet).. or there are way more than 13 generals, and they just showed a few on screen at any given time.

Remember at Hardhome, Jon kills one of the generals (the actor that next season takes over as the Night King). So your count seems right.

 

[jcjames]

38 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

A shame how they gave up on these of these details.

They gave up on a lot of things.

 

[drotto]

In principle, I have nothing wrong with what has been happening in season 8.  The main issue is GOT has always been a show where the battles were offset by cleaver people manipulating people from behind the scenes.  It has been a complex show, with complex people with complex motivations. Nothing has ever been easy or simple.  All of a sudden things have become very simple,  seemingly easy, and abrupt.  Plus, formally smart people are suddenly stupid or have been sidelined. 

 

By the pace set earlier in the series, the events of this season should have taken 2 or even 3 seasons to develope and get resolved. Now an issue is brought up in the first 10 minutes of an episode and resolved by the end. Complex character arcs are obviously accelerated and truncated. The pacing and complexity of the show, the deep characters, the rich world and cultures were what made this show special. Not the big battles and spectacle,  but the loving care and meticulous detail in each scene. That has been lost this season in the seeming rush to the finish.

 

Finally the game becomes meaningless, as a abruptly mad girl uses a neclear weapon to throw a temper tantrum. Thus rendering all the complexity of the show pointless. It is the pinicle of simplicity and abruptness. 

[Catwomancomics]

3 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

 

[RedRaven]

Well, I went and read the spoilers from the reddit thread where they had been spot on with what transpired in episodes 8.1->8.5, God almighty if they are correct on 8.6, prepare for utter disappointment. 

[Catwomancomics]

59 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

On the Cersei prophecy (Maggy the Frog is the actress from Last of the Mohicans).

"The king will have 20 children, and you will have three. Gold, their crowns. Gold, their shrouds."

A shame how they gave up on these of these details.

She is the blonde sister that jumps from the cliff at the end.

[Bosco685]

I had never seen this Season 7 special feature video before, narrated by John 'Samwell Tarly' Bradley.

Prophecies of the Known World

But when I was a boy, I overheard the cook whispering to a maid about a woods witch camping outside Horn Hill who was called "Maggy the Frog". Now I realise it was probably a corruption of the Eastern word for wizards; Maegi. One day my father rode out hunting, though no game was in season, and whatever power she had likely didn't save her.

But then the site notes where the video and the books differ in details concerning Maggy.

Quote

The detail given here that Randyll Tarly killed Maggy the Woods witch is an invention that doesn't happen in the novels. Maggy never even operated near Horn Hill, but in the outskirts of Casterly Rock. Nor have the novels revealed what ultimately happened to her.

 

The extra information Samwell gives about Maggy is from the books: Cersei knew "Maggy" wasn't her real name, but some sort of nickname or title, as her real name was foreign and difficult to pronounce. Later she asked Qyburn, who speculated that it was a slurred Westerosi pronunciation of the Valyrian title "Maegi", someone who practices blood magic. In this case, "Maggy" probably wasn't just a common Woods witch (who are basically mere apothecaries who know a bit of herb-lore), but an actual magic practitioner. When Maggy made her live-action appearance in the Season 5 premiere, of course, no one actually called her "Maggy" on-screen.

 

[Bosco685]

7 minutes ago, Catwomancomics said:

She is the blonde sister that jumps from the cliff at the end.

Exactly!

[jaybuck43]

40 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

I had never seen this Season 7 special feature video before, narrated by John 'Samwell Tarly' Bradley.

Prophecies of the Known World

But when I was a boy, I overheard the cook whispering to a maid about a woods witch camping outside Horn Hill who was called "Maggy the Frog". Now I realise it was probably a corruption of the Eastern word for wizards; Maegi. One day my father rode out hunting, though no game was in season, and whatever power she had likely didn't save her.

But then the site notes where the video and the books differ in details concerning Maggy.

 

Maegi is not the eastern word for wizard.  It is the eastern word for wise.  A maegi is a female who practices blood magic.  "Maggy the frog" did exactly this by tasting Cercei's blood.  

[Bosco685]

14 minutes ago, jaybuck43 said:

Maegi is not the eastern word for wizard.  It is the eastern word for wise.  A maegi is a female who practices blood magic.  "Maggy the frog" did exactly this by tasting Cercei's blood.  

Interesting how even those detailed people that pull together all those book & TV shows together to keep it straight can get these minor details wrong. Gotta give them credit for the massive work they do in attempting to maintain the content.

But also interesting on the Maegi page, they get it right.

GoT Wiki: Maegi

Quote

Maegi are female practitioners of blood magic from Essos. The Dothraki hate and mistrust maegi. According to Mirri Maz Duur, the word means "wise", although in Dothraki, the most appropriate translation is "sorceress".

 

n the A Song of Ice and Fire novels, Maegi are distrusted and hated by the Dothraki, who claim they lay with demons. Some of them have the capability of foretelling a person's future by tasting a drop of their blood.

 

According to Mirri Maz Duur, the word "Maegi" means "wise". "Maggy", who in the books is stated to be Essosi, probably gets her name from a Common Tongue attempt at pronouncing "maegi".

 

[jcjames]

1 hour ago, drotto said:

In principle, I have nothing wrong with what has been happening in season 8.  The main issue is GOT has always been a show where the battles were offset by cleaver people manipulating people from behind the scenes.  It has been a complex show, with complex people with complex motivations. Nothing has ever been easy or simple.  All of a sudden things have become very simple,  seemingly easy, and abrupt.  Plus, formally smart people are suddenly stupid or have been sidelined. 

 

By the pace set earlier in the series, the events of this season should have taken 2 or even 3 seasons to develope and get resolved. Now an issue is brought up in the first 10 minutes of an episode and resolved by the end. Complex character arcs are obviously accelerated and truncated. The pacing and complexity of the show, the deep characters, the rich world and cultures were what made this show special. Not the big battles and spectacle,  but the loving care and meticulous detail in each scene. That has been lost this season in the seeming rush to the finish.

 

Finally the game becomes meaningless, as a abruptly mad girl uses a neclear weapon to throw a temper tantrum. Thus rendering all the complexity of the show pointless. It is the pinicle of simplicity and abruptness. 

Exactly.

Rewatch the series and you'll see multiple episodes of (now-pointless) story-arcs dealing with all sorts of (apparently) waste-of time dead-ends (like Qarth for example). They had time for that and many other drawn-out story-arcs that really led to next-to-nothing (but actually did sloooowly develop the characters), but now they're scarfing through all these hugely significant character-events of this season like it's a fracking hotdog eating contest.

 

[zhamlau]

It would have been fun if they had the needed 20-30 more episodes it would take to tie up all lose ends and plot devices/stories from earlier. To bad they couldn't get the actors/producers/production company to all agree to the 3-4 years extra needed to make all the fans happy. Such is the way of Hollywood I guess.

[drotto]

4 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

It would have been fun if they had the needed 20-30 more episodes it would take to tie up all lose ends and plot devices/stories from earlier. To bad they couldn't get the actors/producers/production company to all agree to the 3-4 years extra needed to make all the fans happy. Such is the way of Hollywood I guess.

This again points to the inexperience and possible failure of the show runners.  Once it was clear the show was a success, they should have developed a clear roadmap on where they were going and exactly how much time they needed to get there. 

 

They did an amazing job on adapting the 1 st three books, but by the end of season 4 they were confronted by three massive realities. Books 4 and 5 while dense were not as strong. They were going to get ahead of the books. Finally, I think they knew season 8 was going to be the end.

 

So in retrospect what should they have done? These are just thoughts...

 

1. Not taken 2 seasons for book 3. Used 1 1/2 seasons for book 3 then taken 1 1/2 for books 4 and 5.

2. Stayed with the 10 episode format for the final 3 seasons.

3. Really sat down with JRRM and fleshed out the outline. Allowing him to cut his involvement was a mistake. Stay with him writting at least one episode per season. I know it was reportedly Martin that pulled back, but everyone has a price.

4. They needed a long term game plan.  From interviews it seems like they were winging it at times, and had a rough idea where they were going. It is clear now they needed an extremely detailed approach. Lay out plot points that would carry through they rest of the series.

5. They lost track of what was special and became enamored with big expensive spectical moments. This is rumored to be one of the reasons seasons got shortened. Expensive shoots became more important than story.

 

I think the show could have been wrapped up well in 8 full seasons, but for whatever reason d and d dropped the ball.  It may be as simple as they lost interest, and got in over their heads.

[Antpark]

13 minutes ago, drotto said:

This again points to the inexperience and possible failure of the show runners.  Once it was clear the show was a success, they should have developed a clear roadmap on where they were going and exactly how much time they needed to get there. 

 

They did an amazing job on adapting the 1 st three books, but by the end of season 4 they were confronted by three massive realities. Books 4 and 5 while dense were not as strong. They were going to get ahead of the books. Finally, I think they knew season 8 was going to be the end.

 

So in retrospect what should they have done? These are just thoughts...

 

1. Not taken 2 seasons for book 3. Used 1 1/2 seasons for book 3 then taken 1 1/2 for books 4 and 5.

2. Stayed with the 10 episode format for the final 3 seasons.

3. Really sat down with JRRM and fleshed out the outline. Allowing him to cut his involvement was a mistake. Stay with him writting at least one episode per season. I know it was reportedly Martin that pulled back, but everyone has a price.

4. They needed a long term game plan.  From interviews it seems like they were winging it at times, and had a rough idea where they were going. It is clear now they needed an extremely detailed approach. Lay out plot points that would carry through they rest of the series.

5. They lost track of what was special and became enamored with big expensive spectical moments. This is rumored to be one of the reasons seasons got shortened. Expensive shoots became more important than story.

 

I think the show could have been wrapped up well in 8 full seasons, but for whatever reason d and d dropped the ball.  It may be as simple as they lost interest, and got in over their heads.

I agree. They've gone with spectacle over substance.

[comix4fun]

1 hour ago, jcjames said:

Exactly.

Rewatch the series and you'll see multiple episodes of (now-pointless) story-arcs dealing with all sorts of (apparently) waste-of time dead-ends (like Qarth for example). They had time for that and many other drawn-out story-arcs that really led to next-to-nothing 

Dear Lord...subtract the swords, magic and dragons and it's The Sopranos.   

[comix4fun]

3 hours ago, drotto said:

 Plus, formally smart people are suddenly stupid or have been sidelined. 

 

Sweet Baby Jeebus, so much this!

It's the biggest clue that the team guiding the narrative have either run out of ideas, painted themselves in a corner with the ideas already used, or just aren't very good at their job. It's a cheat, a dodge, a shortcut. 

When they take established characters with painstakingly developed manners of decision-making, ethics, and priorities and suddenly make them act as if they've been lobotomized, all towards the purpose of making "X" plot point occur it's not just an insult to fans who've paid attention but also to the quality material that's preceded it.