The Anatomy of the Signature Fee 1 1

[nWo_22]

On 5/28/2017 at 10:18 PM, A-DONIS said:

The Anatomy of the Signature Fee

The anatomy of the Signature Fee, and how to alienate your fans.

Mega Con 2017 came and went, tons of comic fans, and artists alike shared a weekend in Orlando, FL where one was sure to meet creators, movie stars, and the occasional artist alley artist selling prints and original art.

The set up this year was the South Concorde, which is slightly smaller than the north, although no one noticed.  With plenty of isle space, you could almost walk without having to stop every five second, that is, until Saturday afternoon, where it seemed like attendees just kept pouring in as they were leaving.

One thing you may have noticed, if you’re comic book fan like me, was the unusual fees being asked for signatures.   At first it was odd that creators who one could normally walk up and get multiple books signed for free, were now asking payment for any signature (Yes raw books).  After carefully looking around the professional section, it seemed that every well-known published artist was now asking at least $5 per sig, higher if you wanted to get your book graded or “witnessed” as most advertised.

This got me thinking, why charge collectors? Are we not the reason why creators get to attend shows like these?

I spoke with a popular DC inker, who summarized his feelings about why he doesn’t charge at all. “If I were to charge for every book I signed, then fans would no longer come see me or buy my prints”, said the inker.  “To me it is ridiculous that some of these artists are charging the same fans that go out and buy comics every week from the local stores.”  He continued to say that, “creators/artists need to think carefully about this, because when you turn away fans because of your fees, you’re essentially alienating the same fans that buy our published books week after week, eventually putting yourself out of work.”

I never really paid attention until now, what if fans decided not to pay signatures fees?  Would the artists stop attending shows?  One will have to wait and see.  

As for me, I paid my fair share of fees because, hey, I’m a fan and a collector just like you.  However, there are some creators that I won’t give the time of day because of their ridiculous signature fee demands and picture fees (YES PICTURE FEES).

[chrisco37]

15 hours ago, Robot Man said:

We have kind of ruined it for our selves. Showing up with stacks of books and a CGC witness doesn't say "thanks, I'm a fan" it says: "I can make some money off this guy". I really can't blame the creator for being a little put off.

[comicwiz]

8 hours ago, tv horror said:

Comicwiz here is a quote from another forum I belong to and strange enough it mentions your airport, star autograph and even a plane ticket. I'd like to add what a nice man Sir Roger Moore was in life and he will be missed.

.

I've just seen this anecdote on Facebook and have stolen it to share with you all here. I didn't write it, the piece belongs, I believe, to a Marc Haynes;

 

As an seven year old in about 1983, in the days before First Class Lounges at airports, I was with my grandad in Nice Airport and saw Roger Moore sitting at the departure gate, reading a paper. I told my granddad I'd just seen James Bond and asked if we could go over so I could get his autograph. My grandad had no idea who James Bond or Roger Moore were, so we walked over and he popped me in front of Roger Moore, with the words "my grandson says you're famous. Can you sign this?" 
As charming as you'd expect, Roger asks my name and duly signs the back of my plane ticket, a fulsome note full of best wishes. I'm ecstatic, but as we head back to our seats, I glance down at the signature. It's hard to decipher it but it definitely doesn't say 'James Bond'. My grandad looks at it, half figures out it says 'Roger Moore' - I have absolutely no idea who that is, and my hearts sinks. I tell my grandad he's signed it wrong, that he's put someone else's name - so my grandad heads back to Roger Moore, holding the ticket which he's only just signed.
I remember staying by our seats and my grandad saying "he says you've signed the wrong name. He says your name is James Bond." Roger Moore's face crinkled up with realisation and he beckoned me over. When I was by his knee, he leant over, looked from side to side, raised an eyebrow and in a hushed voice said to me, "I have to sign my name as 'Roger Moore' because otherwise...Blofeld might find out I was here." He asked me not to tell anyone that I'd just seen James Bond, and he thanked me for keeping his secret. I went back to our seats, my nerves absolutely jangling with delight. My grandad asked me if he'd signed 'James Bond.' No, I said. I'd got it wrong. I was working with James Bond now.
Many, many years later, I was working as a scriptwriter on a recording that involved UNICEF, and Roger Moore was doing a piece to camera as an ambassador. He was completely lovely and while the cameramen were setting up, I told him in passing the story of when I met him in Nice Airport. He was happy to hear it, and he had a chuckle and said "Well, I don't remember but I'm glad you got to meet James Bond." So that was lovely.
And then he did something so brilliant. After the filming, he walked past me in the corridor, heading out to his car - but as he got level, he paused, looked both ways, raised an eyebrow and in a hushed voice said, "Of course I remember our meeting in Nice. But I didn't say anything in there, because those cameramen - any one of them could be working for Blofeld."
I was as delighted at 30 as I had been at 7. What a man. What a tremendous man.

 

What a great story and post! The airport I got from meeting Samuel L. Jackson. The restaurant, for a story I'd heard of a local comic shop owner who had met Crumb at a restaurant and got one of his doodles on a napkin. Unfortunately Crumb didn't speak very much so the napkin was a great momento. The event, an old co-worker of mine got her arm signed by a singer she admired when she was younger because she couldn't find her ticket, and later it was tattooed over to make it permanent. Unfortunately, as an adult she was convinced by others that it kind of looked wierd so she had it laser removed.

Edited May 31, 2017 by comicwiz

[joeypost]

1 hour ago, chrisco37 said:

Well said. I am certain some of these artists/creators follow books with their signatures on eBay, or on comic chat boards. It doesn't take much effort to see the difference in the final sale prices to realize that their signature does add value, and in some cases significant value. The way I see it, they can ask whatever they want. Same way I can choose to get a signature or not.

[fullerjason]

The problem with some of the artists/writers checking eBay or the selling forums here for their signatures is they see a BIN of $500 for a book and may assume that is what all of their books go for due to their signature on a book. Maybe that is a crazy BIN the seller posted but the artist/writer thinks all of them sell for that due to their signature on the cover. If the artist/writer sees a certain book has sold for a large sum over cover price they may not understand it was maybe for a hot variant, that graded high and just so happens to have their signature on it. Maybe it was a key issue with their signature on it and graded high? The bulk of that price paid may have been due to the book in question plus the grade and not their signature alone. Adam Hughes sees a signed Harley Quinn #1 variant SS graded 9.8 sell for $700 and think his signature is worth $670 dollars or so when it is not. I have no problem paying for a signature. Like Adonis I paid a lot of signature fees to celebrities, artists, and writers this past weekend at MegaCon Orlando but I hate getting lumped in with flippers. I submitted 6 Adam Hughes books to the CGC booth and paid the $60 ($10 a book) in total signing fees Adam Hughes requested. I then made a point to go tell Adam Hughes how much I love his work and try to buy everything he creates. I bought a print for $50 and had it signed which I always do when I meet him. I have 6 or 7 prints and his "How to Draw" DVD which fascinates me every time I watch it. He asked me if I had any books for him and told him yes that they were at the CGC booth. That earned me an eye roll and OK next look. I have yet to sell any CGC or CGC SS books. His signed books hang on a wall in my home. A window boarded book now means you are flipper too. It has nothing to do with me trying to protect the comic or anything....

Edited May 31, 2017 by fullerjason

[seanfingh]

What a fantastic story!!! (The Roger Moore one)

I thought I was responding straight away. 

 

Edited May 31, 2017 by seanfingh

[Robot Man]

13 hours ago, tv horror said:

Comicwiz here is a quote from another forum I belong to and strange enough it mentions your airport, star autograph and even a plane ticket. I'd like to add what a nice man Sir Roger Moore was in life and he will be missed.

.

I've just seen this anecdote on Facebook and have stolen it to share with you all here. I didn't write it, the piece belongs, I believe, to a Marc Haynes;

 

As an seven year old in about 1983, in the days before First Class Lounges at airports, I was with my grandad in Nice Airport and saw Roger Moore sitting at the departure gate, reading a paper. I told my granddad I'd just seen James Bond and asked if we could go over so I could get his autograph. My grandad had no idea who James Bond or Roger Moore were, so we walked over and he popped me in front of Roger Moore, with the words "my grandson says you're famous. Can you sign this?" 
As charming as you'd expect, Roger asks my name and duly signs the back of my plane ticket, a fulsome note full of best wishes. I'm ecstatic, but as we head back to our seats, I glance down at the signature. It's hard to decipher it but it definitely doesn't say 'James Bond'. My grandad looks at it, half figures out it says 'Roger Moore' - I have absolutely no idea who that is, and my hearts sinks. I tell my grandad he's signed it wrong, that he's put someone else's name - so my grandad heads back to Roger Moore, holding the ticket which he's only just signed.
I remember staying by our seats and my grandad saying "he says you've signed the wrong name. He says your name is James Bond." Roger Moore's face crinkled up with realisation and he beckoned me over. When I was by his knee, he leant over, looked from side to side, raised an eyebrow and in a hushed voice said to me, "I have to sign my name as 'Roger Moore' because otherwise...Blofeld might find out I was here." He asked me not to tell anyone that I'd just seen James Bond, and he thanked me for keeping his secret. I went back to our seats, my nerves absolutely jangling with delight. My grandad asked me if he'd signed 'James Bond.' No, I said. I'd got it wrong. I was working with James Bond now.
Many, many years later, I was working as a scriptwriter on a recording that involved UNICEF, and Roger Moore was doing a piece to camera as an ambassador. He was completely lovely and while the cameramen were setting up, I told him in passing the story of when I met him in Nice Airport. He was happy to hear it, and he had a chuckle and said "Well, I don't remember but I'm glad you got to meet James Bond." So that was lovely.
And then he did something so brilliant. After the filming, he walked past me in the corridor, heading out to his car - but as he got level, he paused, looked both ways, raised an eyebrow and in a hushed voice said, "Of course I remember our meeting in Nice. But I didn't say anything in there, because those cameramen - any one of them could be working for Blofeld."
I was as delighted at 30 as I had been at 7. What a man. What a tremendous man.

 

Awsome story! My best celebrity autograph story. I don't do it often but if I stumble upon some one I admire, I figure what the heck. I was 16 and too young to get into the Whiskey in LA. Me and my buddy were hanging around the back door after a Doors show and out walked the band. As they walked by us I walked up and asked Jim Morrison for an autograph. He said sure and scribbled on the small piece of paper I gave him. I even got my picture with the band (which I sadly long ago lost). After they left, I looked at it and it read "Madly, Jim". Jim? Not Jim Morrison? I couldn't believe it. But I have that great memory anyway...

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 5/30/2017 at 11:56 AM, Robot Man said:

We have kind of ruined it for our selves. Showing up with stacks of books and a CGC witness doesn't say "thanks, I'm a fan" it says: "I can make some money off this guy". I really can't blame the creator for being a little put off. Some one showing up with one book and an obvious appreciation for the creator is another thing. Goes way back to the dawn of fandom. I have had most every major GA and SA creator (even Stan) sign a book or two for me at no charge. I never approached them with a stack. I treasure those moments.

 

That's a presumption. Why does one have to limit oneself to one book, or they're not a "fan"...?

How many creators have only created one book...?

True story: in Boston last year, I was a witness for a collector who loves Sam Kieth. Brought his entire run of Maxx #1-35, plus a bunch of peripheral books...I think the total number was 52.

He brought a stack. He brought a witness. To my knowledge...and he's a friend of mine...he hasn't sold a single one of those books, nor would he.

But, by your reasoning here, he was just there to "make some money off this guy."

So, a collector can't get a complete run of a creator's work...? We create this amazing thing called "Signature Series", but because of the ignorance of some (and more and more) creators, and the unwillingness, for all sorts of reasons, of people to explain reality...and the reality is, A SIGNATURE BY ITSELF DOES NOT...repeat NOT..."add value", in the VAST majority of cases...then people can't enjoy that because...hell, there's $$$$$ to be made!

This is little more than an updated "what (and how) you collect sucks, what (and how) I collect rules."

There IS middle ground here.

[RockMyAmadeus]

9 hours ago, fullerjason said:

The problem with some of the artists/writers checking eBay or the selling forums here for their signatures is they see a BIN of $500 for a book and may assume that is what all of their books go for due to their signature on a book. Maybe that is a crazy BIN the seller posted but the artist/writer thinks all of them sell for that due to their signature on the cover. If the artist/writer sees a certain book has sold for a large sum over cover price they may not understand it was maybe for a hot variant, that graded high and just so happens to have their signature on it. Maybe it was a key issue with their signature on it and graded high? The bulk of that price paid may have been due to the book in question plus the grade and not their signature alone. Adam Hughes sees a signed Harley Quinn #1 variant SS graded 9.8 sell for $700 and think his signature is worth $670 dollars or so when it is not. I have no problem paying for a signature. Like Adonis I paid a lot of signature fees to celebrities, artists, and writers this past weekend at MegaCon Orlando but I hate getting lumped in with flippers. I submitted 6 Adam Hughes books to the CGC booth and paid the $60 ($10 a book) in total signing fees Adam Hughes requested. I then made a point to go tell Adam Hughes how much I love his work and try to buy everything he creates. I bought a print for $50 and had it signed which I always do when I meet him. I have 6 or 7 prints and his "How to Draw" DVD which fascinates me every time I watch it. He asked me if I had any books for him and told him yes that they were at the CGC booth. That earned me an eye roll and OK next look. I have yet to sell any CGC or CGC SS books. His signed books hang on a wall in my home. A window boarded book now means you are flipper too. It has nothing to do with me trying to protect the comic or anything....

And really, what business is it of there's anyways to be checking "BIN" prices on eBay, without bothering to understand the dynamics of what is actually at play, here...?

If Adam Hughes thinks his signature on that Harley Quinn #1 variant SS is worth $670....and I don't think he does, but he might...then he is mistaken. What does a 9.4 copy of that same book sell signed for...? The last sale was $285.

So, is Hughes' sig worth $670, or $255, or....?

Answer: the value is in the scarcity of the book (which Hughes had nothing to do with), the condition of the book (which Hughes had nothing to do with), and the demand for that cover (which is Hughes' contribution.)

The signature, in and of itself, doesn't add anything. If Hughes signed a print...and I have a poster signed by him, twice...guess what that adds...? 

$0. 

Ok, maybe $5.

Maybe.

If you're going to be offended...and CLEARLY, some of these creators are offended...at least bother to find out what the story is first. 

I see the same people making the same point, over and over again: "they can charge what they want. It's their right to, just like it's my right to not pay."

That's not the issue, never has been the issue, and never will be the issue. This discussion isn't about their RIGHT to charge, which no one disputes (well, at least no one seriously disputes.) 

It's about what they're charging, and why.

[SteppinRazor]

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

 

There IS middle ground here.

Agree, but to be fair, if your friend really loved Sam Keith, he wouldn't make him write his name 35 times.

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 minutes ago, SteppinRazor said:

Agree, but to be fair, if your friend really loved Sam Keith, he wouldn't make him write his name 35 times.

Kieth.

And have you seen how many times Sam signed in 1993...?

8,000.

At least.

Assuming he signed all of the ashcans, and there are only a handful I've seen unsigned.

 

[ADAMANTIUM]

I'm sure wherever Sam Keith was signing, I'm sure that was what he was there to do  I don't think that anyone stops someone on the street with 52 books and asks them to sign please......

Sam Keith was somewhere signing, meaning he was there to sign  

[chrisco37]

10 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

That's a presumption. Why does one have to limit oneself to one book, or they're not a "fan"...?

How many creators have only created one book...?

True story: in Boston last year, I was a witness for a collector who loves Sam Kieth. Brought his entire run of Maxx #1-35, plus a bunch of peripheral books...I think the total number was 52.

He brought a stack. He brought a witness. To my knowledge...and he's a friend of mine...he hasn't sold a single one of those books, nor would he.

But, by your reasoning here, he was just there to "make some money off this guy."

So, a collector can't get a complete run of a creator's work...? We create this amazing thing called "Signature Series", but because of the ignorance of some (and more and more) creators, and the unwillingness, for all sorts of reasons, of people to explain reality...and the reality is, A SIGNATURE BY ITSELF DOES NOT...repeat NOT..."add value", in the VAST majority of cases...then people can't enjoy that because...hell, there's $$$$$ to be made!

This is little more than an updated "what (and how) you collect sucks, what (and how) I collect rules."

There IS middle ground here.

I assumed he meant a stack of the same book (35 copies of Maxx #1, for example).  I think that would probably send a different message than someone with a 1-35 run. 

35 books is 35 books, so what's the difference?   Nothing really, other than the perception.   

[n3rdout]

Came to add my 2 cents after the end of HeroesCon yesterday. This is the first year that I'm seeing more and more creators having a fee or some sort of free book cap and then charging after that. 

The random prices are what drove me mad! The ones that have been charging for years, I already knew they would this year, but they ones that have never charged are what threw me completely off. Skottie Young had a 10 book for free cap and then each book after was $5. Charles Soule was 3 for free and then $5 after that. Then I get to Mike McKone and he is $10 per book, which nothing I have from him is worth that to me (tbf, he and some others would do it for free if it was personalized). To make matters worse, I only found this out at their booth. Meaning I had books for people that I ended up not even needing, due to not wanting to pay. The paying is not even the problem, the inconsistencies and not knowing beforehand are what drove me insane. The funny part is, I normally always tip if there is a jar or charity donation jar, but Mike McKone being $10 per book made me not want to even stop at his booth. I mean, I won't even bother going to his booth in the future either. When you have Mike Zeck charging $5 per book, then Mike McKone charging $10 is laughable. 

Skottie Young even had a dice game you could play at his booth to try and win the right to pay for a sketch, which is actually awesome since he doesn't take commissions anymore. Plus, they would allow me to get back in line to get more books signed. So, that and a combination of getting friends to stand with me, I was able to get all of my Skottie Young books signed. I still had a blast, but it was annoying having to deal with this from most of the people I needed signatures from. 

Realistically, we can all blame the resellers that roll in with their flatbed carts and 10 boxes, with stacks of 50-100 for each creator for all of this. 

[Jaxxon]

6 hours ago, n3rdout said:

Came to add my 2 cents after the end of HeroesCon yesterday. This is the first year that I'm seeing more and more creators having a fee or some sort of free book cap and then charging after that. 

The random prices are what drove me mad! The ones that have been charging for years, I already knew they would this year, but they ones that have never charged are what threw me completely off. Skottie Young had a 10 book for free cap and then each book after was $5. Charles Soule was 3 for free and then $5 after that. Then I get to Mike McKone and he is $10 per book, which nothing I have from him is worth that to me (tbf, he and some others would do it for free if it was personalized). To make matters worse, I only found this out at their booth. Meaning I had books for people that I ended up not even needing, due to not wanting to pay. The paying is not even the problem, the inconsistencies and not knowing beforehand are what drove me insane. The funny part is, I normally always tip if there is a jar or charity donation jar, but Mike McKone being $10 per book made me not want to even stop at his booth. I mean, I won't even bother going to his booth in the future either. When you have Mike Zeck charging $5 per book, then Mike McKone charging $10 is laughable. 

Skottie Young even had a dice game you could play at his booth to try and win the right to pay for a sketch, which is actually awesome since he doesn't take commissions anymore. Plus, they would allow me to get back in line to get more books signed. So, that and a combination of getting friends to stand with me, I was able to get all of my Skottie Young books signed. I still had a blast, but it was annoying having to deal with this from most of the people I needed signatures from. 

Realistically, we can all blame the resellers that roll in with their flatbed carts and 10 boxes, with stacks of 50-100 for each creator for all of this. 

"tbf, he and some others would do it for free if it was personalized"

That's good to know.

[Spidey 62]

If a writer charges a nominal fee, I can live with it.  What else can they sell at a show, other than books?  I do like the small number for free and x amount per book after.  But an artist?  A known artist, not even a big name, will make plenty of money drawing at a show.  I do not see why they have to charge for a sig, or a picture.  Though, if they believe the sgning will interfere with the drawing, they can limit signings to certain times..  I get that everything is a money grab, but I think it is getting out of control.

And, regarding celebrity autos...don't get me started.  I have been going to Trek shows for 20 years.  Mostly recently at Creation shows.  The part that gets me is not necessarily the Trek, but the Supernatural shows.  This show has been on for 10 years and these people have made a good amount of money. The 2 leads are charging over $100 per autograph and another $100+ for photo ops!  That is Shatner/Nimoy/Patrick Stewart money, and they have a lifetime of work to show.  It is disheartening to me.

[SteppinRazor]

5 hours ago, Spidey 62 said:

If a writer charges a nominal fee, I can live with it.  What else can they sell at a show, other than books?  I do like the small number for free and x amount per book after.  But an artist?  A known artist, not even a big name, will make plenty of money drawing at a show.  I do not see why they have to charge for a sig, or a picture.  Though, if they believe the sgning will interfere with the drawing, they can limit signings to certain times..  I get that everything is a money grab, but I think it is getting out of control.

And, regarding celebrity autos...don't get me started.  I have been going to Trek shows for 20 years.  Mostly recently at Creation shows.  The part that gets me is not necessarily the Trek, but the Supernatural shows.  This show has been on for 10 years and these people have made a good amount of money. The 2 leads are charging over $100 per autograph and another $100+ for photo ops!  That is Shatner/Nimoy/Patrick Stewart money, and they have a lifetime of work to show.  It is disheartening to me.

It's always easy to decide how much money someone else should have or charge for their work.

[RockMyAmadeus]

14 hours ago, n3rdout said:

 

Realistically, we can all blame the resellers that roll in with their flatbed carts and 10 boxes, with stacks of 50-100 for each creator for all of this. 

Resellers that roll in with their flatbed carts and 10 boxes have been around for...quite literally, now...decades.

That's not the issue, and never has been the issue.

The issue is that it has "gotten out" in the creative community that people are "making huge profits" off of their signatures through slabbing, and some...maybe a majority, now...are offended by that.

The sad thing is that they are offended about something they don't understand, and, in certain cases, don't want to understand (yes, I'm looking at you, Marv Wolfman, and I hope this gets to you.) Their offendedness isn't even based on reality. It's the worst kind of offendedness: offendedness at something that doesn't even exist.

So, no, the "flatbed cart" folks have been around since the 70's. That's not the issue. The issue is creator ignorance and offendedness based on that ignorance.

And no, McKone's signature isn't worth $10, but if that's what he wants to charge, more power to him. If he's not charging a different price based on where he believes the item may end up...which is discrimination...then great, knock yourself out McKone.

[Spidey 62]

8 hours ago, SteppinRazor said:

It's always easy to decide how much money someone else should have or charge for their work.

I reread my post several times and I still can't find where I did that. But I guess it's easier to throw out a quick snipe than to express an actual thought. 

[SteppinRazor]

9 minutes ago, Spidey 62 said:

I reread my post several times and I still can't find where I did that. But I guess it's easier to throw out a quick snipe than to express an actual thought. 

 

14 hours ago, Spidey 62 said:

If a writer charges a nominal fee, I can live with it.  What else can they sell at a show, other than books?  I do like the small number for free and x amount per book after.  But an artist?  A known artist, not even a big name, will make plenty of money drawing at a show.  I do not see why they have to charge for a sig, or a picture.  Though, if they believe the sgning will interfere with the drawing, they can limit signings to certain times..  I get that everything is a money grab, but I think it is getting out of control.

And, regarding celebrity autos...don't get me started.  I have been going to Trek shows for 20 years.  Mostly recently at Creation shows.  The part that gets me is not necessarily the Trek, but the Supernatural shows.  This show has been on for 10 years and these people have made a good amount of money. The 2 leads are charging over $100 per autograph and another $100+ for photo ops!  That is Shatner/Nimoy/Patrick Stewart money, and they have a lifetime of work to show.  It is disheartening to me.

Bolded the parts to which I was referring.  I've posted my thoughts already on this in this thread and the Starlin one several times, and I don't want to keep repeating.  I'll just throw out the saying about walking a mile in someone else's shoes before begrudging them anything.