Golden Age decline 1 1

[Ken Aldred]

29 minutes ago, rjpb said:

No love for Percival Popp, who went from comic sidekick, to starring character with a mere spectre of the Spectre tagging along?  At least Dr. Fate was only reduced to a generic wise-cracking crime fighter by the end of his run.

The earlier, darker stories had a lasting effect on me after reading some of them in the DC 100 pagers, back in the 70s.

Still my favourite parts of the Archive collections.

[catman76]

Are any of these really a decline? Sure I guess maybe personally to some modern collectors they are, but publishers were just doing whatever sold best and just changed things according to what sold and what didn't, that's all their motivation was. Like how people complain about Robin or kid sidekicks, well that is what sold and what the kids buying the comics wanted so that is what publishers gave them. All these ones that are given as examples of a decline, I am sure far outsold the other ones. People also seem to forget that 99 percent of people buying these comics and the target audience were preteen kids.

[RareHighGrade]

I doubt anyone would disagree that More Fun Comics declined when Dover and Clover became the cover feature.

[OtherEric]

13 minutes ago, RareHighGrade said:

I doubt anyone would disagree that More Fun Comics declined when Dover and Clover became the cover feature.

I'm actually a big fan of both Genius Jones and Jimminy and the Magic Book, and from what I've seen of the respective features, Superboy was a step up from the late episodes of Doctor Fate and the Spectre...

So, yeah.  I disagree.  I would even say that the book improved around the time Dover & Clover became the cover feature.

I will, however, grant that Dover & Clover had NOTHING to do with said improvement... worst thing Henry Boltinoff  ever worked on.

[tth2]

9 hours ago, sacentaur said:

11 hours ago, tth2 said:

is that the first face palm (cover) in comics?

An earlier issue had a text story that mentioned a palm tree and also had someone's hand on the cover, so I guess that's gotta be it!

Sorry Steve, but Bob Overstreet has given that the dreaded "cameo" notation.  So Hit #49 continues to be "First GA appearance of face palm".  

[rjpb]

8 hours ago, Ken Aldred said:

The earlier, darker stories had a lasting effect on me after reading some of them in the DC 100 pagers, back in the 70s.

Still my favourite parts of the Archive collections.

I loved reading those as a kid. The youngsters don't realize how tough it was to find cheap ways to read GA back then. Fantasy Masterpieces, DC 100 pagers and the 48 page quarter books, and the muddy B/W Alan Light flashbacks were it. 

[tabcom]

Having recently read the last days of the GA Wonder Woman , (issues #86-97 (56-57)), from a historian perspective, tenuous to read.

Recycled scripts, Harry Peter declining health resulting in sub-par artwork.

 

[Electricmastro]

Yeah, I think that by 1950, it was only really DC (Superman), Fawcett (Captain Marvel), and Quality (Plastic Man), who were still fully committed to regularly publishing superheroes, though even then, they had all taken an arguably more comedic direction to fit in better with the general popularity of comedy comics at the time, among other popular genres.

[Callaway29]

 

 

 

[Electricmastro]

I suspect the Korean War and Vietnam War had something to do with Barry Allen helping attract success for superheroes again, as was previously with World War II. The US wasn’t as involved in those wars in the 1950s, but you definitely saw a gradually renewed interest if the publishers were anything to go by, as publishers other than DC were noticeably publishing them in 1955, which was a year before Barry Allen’s debut:

Edited February 4, 2020 by Electricmastro

[Electricmastro]

Zoo Funnies didn’t set a particularly high bar to begin with, but I thought its art was at least decent near the beginning by issue 3. By late 1947 though, it had really degenerated into something else.

Issue 3 (January, 1946):

Issue 14 (December, 1947):

[Marty Mann]

Some very interesting observations posted here.

Marty

[L'Angelo Misterioso]

A profound drop in quality over the course of this series.

[1950's war comics]

first appearance of today's "Saggy Pants youth"

[sfcityduck]

What decline?  

So many artists peaked in the 1950s.  Maybe the best example is Bill Everett!  But all the famous EC guys (Kurtzman, Frazetta, Williamson, Krigstein, Craig, etc.) were hitting highs in the late 40s and 50s at EC and elsewhere (DC, Atlas, etc.), DC guys also were hitting highs in the late 40s and 50s such as (Toth, Infantino, etc.).  Romance books had incredible art by Baker and Toth others in that time period, PCH had so many interesting artists, War was becoming a genre that mattered, and some of the storytelling innovations used in that time period were literally decades ahead of their time. The SA was a decline in art compared to a lot of what you see in the 50s.

And then there were the Ducks. Barks also hit a high point in the late 40s and 50s.  And he's on the Mt. Rushmore of Comics as a result. Timeless stories that are still inspiring tv shows today.

Superheros never went away.  Aside from DC which was constant, Atlas had new titles and a revival in 50s pre-dating the SA, Quality never stopped, Fawcett would not have stopped but for lawsuits, Harvey, Charlton and lots of cool little publishers also put out superhero books.  For me, the late 40s to mid-50s was a high point for DC, with a lot of really fun superhero stories featuring the big 3 (Superman, Batman & Robin (who was a solo star)), as well as WW, Green Arrow, Robotman, Vigilante, Shining Knight, Wildcat, Aquaman, etc.).

[L'Angelo Misterioso]

On 5/11/2023 at 7:20 PM, sfcityduck said:

What decline?  

So many artists peaked in the 1950s.  Maybe the best example is Bill Everett!  But all the famous EC guys (Kurtzman, Frazetta, Williamson, Krigstein, Craig, etc.) were hitting highs in the late 40s and 50s at EC and elsewhere (DC, Atlas, etc.), DC guys also were hitting highs in the late 40s and 50s such as (Toth, Infantino, etc.).  Romance books had incredible art by Baker and Toth others in that time period, PCH had so many interesting artists, War was becoming a genre that mattered, and some of the storytelling innovations used in that time period were literally decades ahead of their time. The SA was a decline in art compared to a lot of what you see in the 50s.

And then there were the Ducks. Barks also hit a high point in the late 40s and 50s.  And he's on the Mt. Rushmore of Comics as a result. Timeless stories that are still inspiring tv shows today.

Superheros never went away.  Aside from DC which was constant, Atlas had new titles and a revival in 50s pre-dating the SA, Quality never stopped, Fawcett would not have stopped but for lawsuits, Harvey, Charlton and lots of cool little publishers also put out superhero books.  For me, the late 40s to mid-50s was a high point for DC, with a lot of really fun superhero stories featuring the big 3 (Superman, Batman & Robin (who was a solo star)), as well as WW, Green Arrow, Robotman, Vigilante, Shining Knight, Wildcat, Aquaman, etc.).

Yea I definitely would push back if anyone said comic book quality declined as the golden age progressed. I interpreted, perhaps incorrectly, the concept of this thread to be about how as golden age series (such as Boy Comics, Daredevil, Marvel Mystery, Submariner Comics) progressed, the covers became less inspired, less evocative, and sometimes just crappy. I've noticed that many of these action series' covers venture into a comedy route; some phase out the title hero entirely from the cover, like Daredevil and Black Cat. But regarding interiors: you've already talked about the Atlas and EC revolution of the early 50s, where interior art and stories were growing much more sophisticated, the industry more diverse, etc. Even in hero books, the art was getting better as the golden age was progressing. I have copies of Marvel Mystery 48 and 83. You can't even compare the interior art quality between the two. I always wonder how this medium would have progressed without anti-comic hysteria and the CCA. The early 50s was truly the "golden age" of comics, in my mind. 

Edited May 12, 2023 by L'Angelo Misterioso

[LDarkseid1]

On 5/11/2023 at 12:47 AM, L'Angelo Misterioso said:

A profound drop in quality over the course of this series.

Well now I know where current day anime came from.

[*paull*]

On 5/11/2023 at 10:20 PM, sfcityduck said:

What decline?  

So many artists peaked in the 1950s.  Maybe the best example is Bill Everett!  But all the famous EC guys (Kurtzman, Frazetta, Williamson, Krigstein, Craig, etc.) were hitting highs in the late 40s and 50s at EC and elsewhere (DC, Atlas, etc.), DC guys also were hitting highs in the late 40s and 50s such as (Toth, Infantino, etc.).  Romance books had incredible art by Baker and Toth others in that time period, PCH had so many interesting artists, War was becoming a genre that mattered, and some of the storytelling innovations used in that time period were literally decades ahead of their time. The SA was a decline in art compared to a lot of what you see in the 50s.

And then there were the Ducks. Barks also hit a high point in the late 40s and 50s.  And he's on the Mt. Rushmore of Comics as a result. Timeless stories that are still inspiring tv shows today.

Superheros never went away.  Aside from DC which was constant, Atlas had new titles and a revival in 50s pre-dating the SA, Quality never stopped, Fawcett would not have stopped but for lawsuits, Harvey, Charlton and lots of cool little publishers also put out superhero books.  For me, the late 40s to mid-50s was a high point for DC, with a lot of really fun superhero stories featuring the big 3 (Superman, Batman & Robin (who was a solo star)), as well as WW, Green Arrow, Robotman, Vigilante, Shining Knight, Wildcat, Aquaman, etc.).

I don't think that Bill Everett peaked in the 1950s... I actually think he improved in the 1970s and did the best work of his career on Sub-Mariner.

[fifties]

On 5/11/2023 at 7:31 PM, L'Angelo Misterioso said:

Yea I definitely would push back if anyone said comic book quality declined as the golden age progressed. I interpreted, perhaps incorrectly, the concept of this thread to be about how as golden age series (such as Boy Comics, Daredevil, Marvel Mystery, Submariner Comics) progressed, the covers became less inspired, less evocative, and sometimes just crappy. I've noticed that many of these action series' covers venture into a comedy route; some phase out the title hero entirely from the cover, like Daredevil and Black Cat. But regarding interiors: you've already talked about the Atlas and EC revolution of the early 50s, where interior art and stories were growing much more sophisticated, the industry more diverse, etc. Even in hero books, the art was getting better as the golden age was progressing. I have copies of Marvel Mystery 48 and 83. You can't even compare the interior art quality between the two. I always wonder how this medium would have progressed without anti-comic hysteria and the CCA. The early 50s was truly the "golden age" of comics, in my mind. 

I would offer that at least AFA Atlas horror titles, the interior artwork, and story lines as well,  seriously declined from 1950 to 1954.  Along with that we can throw in horror publications by Stanley Morse, who although did produce some awesome covers, had a miserable stable of story artists.  

[rjpb]

On 5/11/2023 at 7:31 PM, L'Angelo Misterioso said:

Yea I definitely would push back if anyone said comic book quality declined as the golden age progressed. I interpreted, perhaps incorrectly, the concept of this thread to be about how as golden age series (such as Boy Comics, Daredevil, Marvel Mystery, Submariner Comics) progressed, the covers became less inspired, less evocative, and sometimes just crappy. I've noticed that many of these action series' covers venture into a comedy route; some phase out the title hero entirely from the cover, like Daredevil and Black Cat. But regarding interiors: you've already talked about the Atlas and EC revolution of the early 50s, where interior art and stories were growing much more sophisticated, the industry more diverse, etc. Even in hero books, the art was getting better as the golden age was progressing. I have copies of Marvel Mystery 48 and 83. You can't even compare the interior art quality between the two. I always wonder how this medium would have progressed without anti-comic hysteria and the CCA. The early 50s was truly the "golden age" of comics, in my mind. 

I expressed in my opening post that "arguably the overall quality of art and perhaps even storytelling actually improved towards the later years", but there is little argument that more than a few titles, principally Superhero ones, became less interesting as the decade progressed, particularly the covers. The end of WW2 played a role in this, as the genre seemed to flounder a bit after the Axis Powers no longer provided an obvious foil, and the violence in many titles got toned down a bit, returning in force in the crime and horror books in the late forties and early fifties. Of course DC began toning things down early, as I recall The Joker stopped murdering people after only a few appearances.