Fingerprints? Scuffs? Fingerbends? 0

[jmagg73]

Fingerprints? Scuffs? Fingerbends?

I just got the grader notes for my walking dead issues that I dropped off at C2E2.  The grades are all inconsistent.  I thought 3 people graded each issue and compared notes?  I am also concerned about how my books were handled since 2 issues had bends throughout the top half of the books and 2 issues had crunches in the same corners.  I dont see how a fingerprint can pull a grade down to a 9.4 or another book grades at 9.6 but has fingerbends and stress line.  I spent over a thousand dollars getting 30 books graded.  I have lost faith in this process.

does anyone really believe all those 9.8 silver keys graded years ago didnt have fingerprints on them?  What is considered a scuff?... Laying the issue on a table? 

[Bomber-Bob]

Realizing you are venting here, I am not sure what you are asking from us ? It has been discussed before, a 9.8 with a fingerprint usually results in a  9.4 . Fingerprints probably contain oil from your skin, so the flaw is similar in nature to a stain. In hindsight you probably should have submitted these using a prescreen. 

Edited June 9, 2017 by Bomber-Bob

[jmagg73]

44 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Realizing you are venting here, I am not sure what you are asking from us ? It has been discussed before, a 9.8 with a fingerprint usually results in a  9.4 . Fingerprints probably contain oil from your skin, so the flaw is similar in nature to a stain. In hindsight you probably should have submitted these using a prescreen. 

Im referring to inconsistency.  There are 9.6s here with stress lines and fingerbends... thats worse than a 9.4 with fingerprints in corner?  There are 9.4s here with bends in the cover and stress lines. There is a 9.4 with 3 fingerprints and a scratch that breaks color.  All equal to 9.4 with a fingerprint?

How can you possibly be serious that it is acceptable to give a comic with flaws only seen through a magnifying glass a 9.4?!

This company has only its reputation to survive on.  The reputation that grading comics doesnt change year to year.  That a 9.4 with stress lines and fingerbends doesnt equal to a 9.4 with fingerprints.  I regret not using The other company.  9.8s still sell better through them than 9.4s with a fingerprint.  

Edited June 9, 2017 by jmagg73

[Tony S]

Lots of people are unhappy with their early submissions.  There is no asking "why?". CGC is harsher on fingerprints than they are on small bends and stress lines. I tend to agree that fingerprints are indeed a bigger defect than stress lines and very small bends -which finger bends usually are.  But there is no real purposed in arguing it. 

Another thing you allude to is a common misconception about grading. Collectors ask routinely "how much would xyz defect deduct from an otherwise 9.4 book?". That isn't an accurate way to think of grading. Defects are NOT all listed in a book somewhere with a "minus value" assigned to them. Instead the more accurate question is "what is the best grade a book could get with xyz defect?" Then the next step in understanding grading is the lower the grade, the more defects allowed. So once a book has been a fingerprint that limits it to a 9.4 grade  - it can most likely have a more than one fingerprint and another tiny defect and STILL stay a 9.4.  But the first fingerprint probably limits  a book to no better than 9.4

I understand your frustration. We have all been there. But that other grading company wasn't going to be any more generous (or reasonable, given how you are feeling now) on the grades. They downgrade for fingerprints too. . And it bears keeping in mind that the reason that other company has enjoyed a good deal of success is because of who owns and runs it.  Steve Borock was chief grader and President of CGC for their first eight years so it should come as no surprise that grades from the two companies are typically very similar.  
 

Someone else mentioned it. If you feel you need some minimum grade to make submitting the book worthwhile, prescreen is the way to go.  You had a enough books (25 or more) for a prescreen.  Of course if you had prescreened at 9.6 you wouldn't have received many slabbed books 

And no - those 9.8 silver age keys don't have fingerprints on them.  And those Silver age keys are a lot less prone to fingerprints than the Walking Dead books you sent in.  Moderns with their higher gloss papers and over saturated inks are far more prone to fingerprints. 

[jmagg73]

I believe all books should start out at 10 and go down.  This is obviously not the case anymore.  They start at 9.8.  You guys with thousands of posts are appologists doing damage control for cgc or have drunk too much of the kool-aid.

sorry.. my 2cents

[joeypost]

14 hours ago, jmagg73 said:

Fingerprints? Scuffs? Fingerbends?

I just got the grader notes for my walking dead issues that I dropped off at C2E2.  The grades are all inconsistent.  I thought 3 people graded each issue and compared notes?  I am also concerned about how my books were handled since 2 issues had bends throughout the top half of the books and 2 issues had crunches in the same corners.  I dont see how a fingerprint can pull a grade down to a 9.4 or another book grades at 9.6 but has fingerbends and stress line.  I spent over a thousand dollars getting 30 books graded.  I have lost faith in this process.

does anyone really believe all those 9.8 silver keys graded years ago didnt have fingerprints on them?  What is considered a scuff?... Laying the issue on a table? 

Todays moderns are printed on thicker stock (especially the early WD books), and in most cases the inks have more gloss. This combination makes defects like fingerprints and fingernail dents to be more prominent. I see this all the time with WD books. Some that say all they did was buy the book and stick it in a bag/board still have books with prints and dents. Not sure how many books you have submitted to be graded overall, but early on it is definitely a learning experience.

Regarding fingerprints I would have to agree that these are hit harder than small tress lines and bends. The oils in your fingers over time react to the inks and can cause smudging or even color loss. A small dent or crease left all alone will not get worse, the same cannot be said for fingerprints.

[Tony S]

20 hours ago, jmagg73 said:

I believe all books should start out at 10 and go down.  This is obviously not the case anymore.  They start at 9.8.  You guys with thousands of posts are appologists doing damage control for cgc or have drunk too much of the kool-aid.

sorry.. my 2cents

I sense you are angry... 

I actually understand. But your anger won't help you. People here have only shared knowledge. The "you guys are apologists doing damage control for CGC " is silly, In fact I think most of us that have commented thus far submit books to the other guys too. 

You....cannot...change....how the grading companies grade.  With experience, you'll realize there are no apologists doing damage control because there is no damage to control or apologize for.  You don't like the grades you got. Your name is Legion.  But you cannot change the grades you received and no amount of posting and lawyering the grading notes will change how CGC grades next month. What you can do is what most do. Try to learn from this experience. You now know that fingerprints, finger bends and very small stress lines have bigger than you would have expected impact on the grade of a comic book.  And that modern books with their glossy paper and inks are much more prone to such defects.  There is no knowledge that is not useful - and most knowledge costs something . 

Use that knowledge going forward when purchasing raw books and/or considering what raw books to send in. You might also - for your own piece of mind - send a couple of the books you are unhappy with to that other grading company.  If they get better grades you can feel vindicated. If they grade the same or worse - which is the likely outcome - then you'll have more reason to accept that agree or not, this is how the professional grading companies grade. 

[Bomber-Bob]

21 hours ago, jmagg73 said:

I believe all books should start out at 10 and go down.  This is obviously not the case anymore.  They start at 9.8.  You guys with thousands of posts are appologists doing damage control for cgc or have drunk too much of the kool-aid.

sorry.. my 2cents

Actually, you are correct, books start @ 9.8 and go down with defects. A 9.9 or 10 will exhibit extraordinary characteristics, like razor sharp corners, perfect centering, etc. You will see a 9.8 with a soft corner or a white stripe from being off center. That's because being off center is not considered a defect. Trust me, no one here is doing damage control for CGC. Look at it this way, what if they gave all your books a 9.8 and you sold them. The buyer would be coming on here and complaining that CGC was soft, giving books with fingerprints a 9.8 . You didn't get the grades you expected, learn from it. Been there, done that. 

[SteppinRazor]

On 6/9/2017 at 0:54 AM, Tony S said:

Another thing you allude to is a common misconception about grading. Collectors ask routinely "how much would xyz defect deduct from an otherwise 9.4 book?". That isn't an accurate way to think of grading. Defects are NOT all listed in a book somewhere with a "minus value" assigned to them. Instead the more accurate question is "what is the best grade a book could get with xyz defect?" Then the next step in understanding grading is the lower the grade, the more defects allowed. So once a book has been a fingerprint that limits it to a 9.4 grade  - it can most likely have a more than one fingerprint and another tiny defect and STILL stay a 9.4.  But the first fingerprint probably limits  a book to no better than 9.4

I'm sure cgc has such standards, but they aren't about to tell everyone exactly what costs what or no one would need them.  The rest is good advice, as it is rare that a book will have a sole flaw and flaws have different visual impacts to the book.

My guess is fingerprints get hit hard because they are easily visible.  Sometimes you have to hold a comic right up to your face to see a small bend, but fingerprints are easy to see.  Anything that visually obvious is going to cost you.

9 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Actually, you are correct, books start @ 9.8 and go down with defects. A 9.9 or 10 will exhibit extraordinary characteristics, like razor sharp corners, perfect centering, etc

I agree that grading should start at 10 and work down from there.  Obviously it's an extremely rare book that gets a 10, so the first ding won't be hard to determine.

[Bomber-Bob]

1 hour ago, SteppinRazor said:

I agree that grading should start at 10 and work down from there.  Obviously it's an extremely rare book that gets a 10, so the first ding won't be hard to determine.

If grading started @ 10, say you had two books with no defects. However, one was off center a little, or maybe a staple was not square on the vertex. How would you distinguish between the two from a grading perspective ? Grading should start @ 9.8 so you can give a 10 to that 'perfect' book. Grading should not just be mathematically deducting flaws.

[Tony S]

1 hour ago, Bomber-Bob said:

If grading started @ 10, say you had two books with no defects. However, one was off center a little, or maybe a staple was not square on the vertex. How would you distinguish between the two from a grading perspective ? Grading should start @ 9.8 so you can give a 10 to that 'perfect' book. Grading should not just be mathematically deducting flaws.

And grading is NOT just mathematically deducting flaws. If it were someone would make a grading program and all you would need is a good scanner and a computer.  

[joeypost]

4 minutes ago, Tony S said:

And grading is NOT just mathematically deducting flaws. If it were someone would make a grading program and all you would need is a good scanner and a computer.  

And one that could count pages, and one that could check for missing coupons, and one that could check for fading, and one that could check for trimming, and one that could check for color touch, and one that could check for married pages or covers, and one that could check for reproduced covers, and one that could check for broken or rusty staples, and one that could check for brittle/tan pages, and one that could check for foxing vs. water damage, etc. If it could be done, it already would have. IMO, there is no way to remove the human element from grading. 

[somewhereintexas]

Before getting too agitated, it seems like you should wait until you get the books back and see if you're still confused as to the notes or if they make more sense.  I've had plenty of times that I've thought there was no way the graders notes were right, but when I had the book in hand I reluctantly had to agree.  On the other hand, there have been times that the graders notes still didn't make sense, especially on a recent submission for a 9.6 book was pressed by CCS and yet still had a bend in the upper right corner.  

[SteppinRazor]

6 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

If grading started @ 10, say you had two books with no defects. However, one was off center a little, or maybe a staple was not square on the vertex. How would you distinguish between the two from a grading perspective ? Grading should start @ 9.8 so you can give a 10 to that 'perfect' book. Grading should not just be mathematically deducting flaws.

If it is off center just a fraction, then it receives a tiny ding, say from 10 to 9.8.  Non square staple, down to a 9.8.  Those are flaws from perfection.  If one can't find a flaw, even with more intense scrutiny, then there is nothing to deduct for and one has a 10 on one's hands.

We're talking about a subtle distinction in terms of where in the scale the grader starts, because going up .2pts v going down .2pts is a sort of either/or.  But I think it's an important one for the psychological effect it has.  Human nature is to start at the top and work one's way down.  If one starts at 9.8, then that is the standard, and then it becomes the default top of the scale - which it isn't, and yet is also a lament on the boards, that buyers are assuming 9.8 means perfect.

And to be fair, we don't know how CGC's process works, they may well start at 10.  Since perfection is tremendously elusive, finding that first imperfection is quick.

[SteppinRazor]

4 hours ago, Tony S said:

And grading is NOT just mathematically deducting flaws. If it were someone would make a grading program and all you would need is a good scanner and a computer.  

I wouldn't be surprised if game theory could be used to do just that, if someone had access to all graded slabs and their notes.

[Tony S]

4 hours ago, SteppinRazor said:

I wouldn't be surprised if game theory could be used to do just that, if someone had access to all graded slabs and their notes.

It's an interesting thought   , but would not work. For one, the grading notes are NOT a complete and absolute record of every single flaw on a book. They are nothing more than the defects the graders felt like writing down  A good number of 9.4-9.8 books have no grader notes. 

Then of course you really can't see a lot flaws once a book is encapsulated. 

Edited June 11, 2017 by Tony S