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(attempted) Flip of the Day!
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2,075 posts in this topic

49 minutes ago, vodou said:

Blah blah blah.

You brought this tale to the Board, nobody forced you to, perhaps you were expecting sympathy? Collecting* is always personal and relationships often form on the basis of a single good-for-all-involved transaction. Run roughshod over that all you want but don't be surprised when some collectors find that attitude and your actions impersonal and disagreeable.

By your own admission you experienced a liquidity event that you lacked preparation for. You figured wrong (duh).

Private property rights works both ways. Just as you can do whatever you want with your property, so can the rest of us. And some of us, reading a story like yours, will do business with just about anybody but now not you. It's not like there's only one buyer (you) out there for most of this stuff. Actions have consequences.

But I mean...you probably already know all this consequences stuff having run similarly roughshod all over Comicart-L for years.

*as opposed to dealing

As far as I know, I have never had any dealings with you, but I knew from your previous response that you had a personal vendetta against me and you prove that by your statement above. Like I have said about you and others who hid behind a screen name, I just wish that would put your real name up on here or on Comicart-L. Whatever your problem is with me, please, feel free to contact me via PM on here or at greatonefrommatewan@yahoo.com and lets talk about it.

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23 minutes ago, Michael Browning said:

As far as I know, I have never had any dealings with you, but I knew from your previous response that you had a personal vendetta against me and you prove that by your statement above. Like I have said about you and others who hid behind a screen name, I just wish that would put your real name up on here or on Comicart-L. Whatever your problem is with me, please, feel free to contact me via PM on here or at greatonefrommatewan@yahoo.com and lets talk about it.

You're correct, no dealings. (Well actually one on eBay but it went just fine.) But you're also wrong - no personal vendetta. I just think you're a jerk. This through years of observation where in every case I can remember when there's conflict involving you, it's always somebody else's fault (not to mention that you're some sort of magnet for regular conflict too!) And you just rage about like a bull in a china store. Rage. Rage. Rage. Likewise any constructive criticism (such as I initially gave) and out comes the smarmy repartee and defensiveness. Lately you've tried to tone the aggression down a bit by raging for a while then when public opinion doesn't side with you, you take the passive tack of being (somewhat) humble and kumbaya but not really (as you're back to your old tricks soon enough). This whatever your problem is with me, please, stuff is that passive-aggressive weirdness at work right in front of us all. You don't even know me (so my name would mean nothing to you) and yet your moods are flipping on and off like a light switch.

Some people are simply jerks. Occasionally one grows up. Hey takes (a former) one to know one, and I did grow up, so I also know it can happen. There is hope for you yet. The key for me was embracing The Golden Rule ;)

Not a bit of this has anything to do with where this all started though. My previous comments on that still apply.

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22 hours ago, SquareChaos said:

This is what I was going to say. I don't sell anything - I'm also not a big money player, this is a hobby to me in every sense of the word - but when I've purchased or traded items with other collectors, this is how I go about it. Some times it is literally mentioned as part of the transaction, but even if it isn't, I keep a list of where the art came from and would absolutely reach out to the previous owner first.

respectfully wondering - if you can share your experience with this? when you went back and offered to sell the art months or years later - did any original buyers take you up on it? and how did you handle the increase in price if any? art has been going up for the past few years - so its hard to imagine a person selling a piece of art and asking to buy it back at a substantially higher amount (although it could happen.)  In speaking to other collectors - a lot of them, have a hard time paying current market for stuff that was available to them previously for much less.  In my mind, that is analogous to a situation where they have to buy a piece back at a higher price.  just interested in your thoughts.

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53 minutes ago, Panelfan1 said:

respectfully wondering - if you can share your experience with this? when you went back and offered to sell the art months or years later - did any original buyers take you up on it? and how did you handle the increase in price if any? art has been going up for the past few years - so its hard to imagine a person selling a piece of art and asking to buy it back at a substantially higher amount (although it could happen.)  In speaking to other collectors - a lot of them, have a hard time paying current market for stuff that was available to them previously for much less.  In my mind, that is analogous to a situation where they have to buy a piece back at a higher price.  just interested in your thoughts.

I've only collected for a handful of years, I don't spend a large percentage of my income on it, larger sums of money always make interactions more complicated so I'm certain that plays into my personal experiences... I'm a hobbyist in every sense of the word.

 

The fact of the matter is that I don't own a single piece worth what I consider a significant sum of money... certainly nothing that may lift me out of some nebulously defined 'financial trouble'. Since I experience the market through that framing, perhaps it provides me with the luxury of considering each transaction as a 'mine forever' at best, and a 'maybe I'll trade that some day' at worst - in other words, I likely have a far simpler time considering these scenarios than those of you that are much more deeply leveraged. Having said that, I do keep a spreadsheet that holds information on every page that I own. If I ever do decide to let a page go - and if the circumstances dictate it; I'm not emailing Heritage - I'll absolutely reach out to that original source and ask if they're interested in owning the piece again. I imagine everyone in this hobby understands that prices fluctuate and are often very subjective, so I don't anticipate a difficult price discussion if this should occur - I certainly never give anyone the impression that they'll get the piece back for whatever I paid for it, nor would I ever expect that should the roles be reversed.

 

At it's core, this is really nothing more than a gentleman's agreement - it's just a little sign of (hopefully) mutual respect between two people that share a similar interest. 

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9 hours ago, glendgold said:
I've been run down and I've been lied to.
And I don't know why, I let that mean dealer make me a fool.
He took all my money, flips my old Byrne.
Now it's sold to one of my good time buddies,
They're drinkin in some inky tavern.
Sometimes I feel, sometimes I feel,
Like I been tied to the flippin' post.
Tied to the flippin' post, tied to the flippin' post.
Good Lord, I feel like I'm dyin'.
 
 

Ha. I prefer their lesser know hits. Blue line Sky and In Memory of Reed Richards

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Kirby TTA #40 page with Ant-Man, sold in the HA Signature this past Friday, Nov. 17.

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/jack-kirby-and-sol-brodsky-tales-to-astonish-40-story-page-9-original-art-marvel-1963-/a/7169-93127.s?ic4=OtherResults-SampleItem-071515&tab=ArchiveSearchResults-012417

Now “offers” on CAF:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=1436763&GSub=186745

Quite a nice page though. And you can make offers via HA as well. So maybe this isn’t exactly why this thread started. But since it was just listed on CAF, figured I’d post to keep the thread alive.

Edited by lobrac
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1 hour ago, lobrac said:

Kirby TTA #40 page with Ant-Man, sold in the HA Signature this past Friday, Nov. 17.

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/jack-kirby-and-sol-brodsky-tales-to-astonish-40-story-page-9-original-art-marvel-1963-/a/7169-93127.s?ic4=OtherResults-SampleItem-071515&tab=ArchiveSearchResults-012417

Now “offers” on CAF:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=1436775&GSub=11327

Quite a nice page though. And you can make offers via HA as well. So maybe this isn’t exactly why this thread started. But since it was just listed on CAF, figured I’d post to keep the thread alive.

Second link goes to an Evil Ernie cover? (shrug)

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4 hours ago, SquareChaos said:

Interesting, Steve Borock's CAF.

What's interesting about that? Steve's flipped lots over the years. So have I. And so have many others.  This isn't some frowned upon practice. It's only interesting  when the attempted flip is Donnelly level outrageous. 

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I think the quick turn-around on this flip is of at least slight interest, as is the fact that some collectors I know were fairly interested in owning this great-looking page.  I guess they have another chance now!  

There have always been flippers.  I have flipped, you have flipped, we have all flipped.  I don't frown upon it, but trying to flip a piece that was auctioned in a high-profile manner, as opposed to a piece you got from a seller's ill-advised BIN, so soon after the auction, usually gets my attention for a second or two.  As we see more and more nice pieces being offered up 24-48 hours after the conclusion of a major auction, this will become less interesting, I'm sure.  Best, Lee  

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9 hours ago, Khazano said:

What's interesting about that? Steve's flipped lots over the years. So have I. And so have many others.  This isn't some frowned upon practice. It's only interesting  when the attempted flip is Donnelly level outrageous. 

Just interesting as it is the first time I've run across his CAF. It is of course quite a nice collection. It is interesting to run across a semi-famous persons CAF.

 

And flipping does seem to be frowned upon by some number of collectors - so depending on who you ask it may be frowned upon.

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18 hours ago, lobrac said:

Kirby TTA #40 page with Ant-Man, sold in the HA Signature this past Friday, Nov. 17.

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/jack-kirby-and-sol-brodsky-tales-to-astonish-40-story-page-9-original-art-marvel-1963-/a/7169-93127.s?ic4=OtherResults-SampleItem-071515&tab=ArchiveSearchResults-012417

Now “offers” on CAF:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=1436763&GSub=186745

Quite a nice page though. And you can make offers via HA as well. So maybe this isn’t exactly why this thread started. But since it was just listed on CAF, figured I’d post to keep the thread alive.

Wasn't this page on Mitch's site, and at San Diego, just a few months ago at (I believe) $9500? If it didn't sell there, why does someone buy it for an extra $650+ on Heritage and expect someone to pay even more on top of that?  Mitch's site is very well known so it wasn't exactly hidden....... Great page BTW. 

--Mark T.

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5 hours ago, Lee B. said:

I think the quick turn-around on this flip is of at least slight interest, as is the fact that some collectors I know were fairly interested in owning this great-looking page.  I guess they have another chance now!  

I generally avoid these types of discussions, but I think you captured the essence of why I am not a fan of this specific practice.

It's hard to side with any practice which has the direct causal effect of driving up the price of a piece by pure greed, while simulatenously acting to obstruct a collector from owning it.

I wasn't interested in this piece. I'll also concede that reselling is not something I completely begrudge, although this falls into the area of a tactic for which I do take exception. I also respect Steve and do not direct any of this toward him, as there may well be a reasonable explanation. 

However, if this had been one of the pieces I was making a run for this past weekend, my view on this is if you have the cajones to try to flip something that quick, be prepared to hear the noise.

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2 hours ago, SquareChaos said:

Just interesting as it is the first time I've run across his CAF. It is of course quite a nice collection. It is interesting to run across a semi-famous persons CAF.

 

And flipping does seem to be frowned upon by some number of collectors - so depending on who you ask it may be frowned upon.

Funny story about Steve that I think is relevant to this discussion. He and I both Made and Offer on a Ultimate Spidey cover back in the day for the same amount. The seller chose his offer over mine. Steve then put it up for sale at double the price on CAF like that night.  I emailed him, told him my story, showed him my ultimate spidey collection, and he sold it to me for a 200 dollar markup (vs 800). Which was still less than its FMV at the time.  In selling it to me less than at FMV but still making a profit. Is that flip? Is that greed? Should he have just yielded it to me at his cost price out of the kindness of his heart cause it was my collecting focus? (As some would seem to think was the morally right choice.)   Or is that playing his cards just right? To me, it's playing his cards right. He made money and an ally in the hobby who ten years later is still singing his praise.  

 

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1 hour ago, Khazano said:

Funny story about Steve that I think is relevant to this discussion. He and I both Made and Offer on a Ultimate Spidey cover back in the day for the same amount. The seller chose his offer over mine. Steve then put it up for sale at double the price on CAF like that night.  I emailed him, told him my story, showed him my ultimate spidey collection, and he sold it to me for a 200 dollar markup (vs 800). Which was still less than its FMV at the time.  In selling it to me less than at FMV but still making a profit. Is that flip? Is that greed? Should he have just yielded it to me at his cost price out of the kindness of his heart cause it was my collecting focus? (As some would seem to think was the morally right choice.)   Or is that playing his cards just right? To me, it's playing his cards right. He made money and an ally in the hobby who ten years later is still singing his praise.  

 

I personally do not hold a flat black and white opinion on flipping, I try to look at the context.

 

I would hazard to guess that most here that hold a poor view on flipping would find someone buying a cover and then immediately listing it again for twice what they paid a little distasteful. I mean, at the end of the day, all that happened here is that you had to pay some third party a surcharge to get a hold of the cover. Was it nice of him to let you have it for less than he listed it as? Sure, I guess... but wouldn't it have been even more nice of him not to bid on something he obviously didn't want? I think that is the real quandary of the story you've told.

Edited by SquareChaos
Clarity
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8 hours ago, Lee B. said:

I think the quick turn-around on this flip is of at least slight interest, as is the fact that some collectors I know were fairly interested in owning this great-looking page.  I guess they have another chance now!  

There have always been flippers.  I have flipped, you have flipped, we have all flipped.  I don't frown upon it, but trying to flip a piece that was auctioned in a high-profile manner, as opposed to a piece you got from a seller's ill-advised BIN, so soon after the auction, usually gets my attention for a second or two.  As we see more and more nice pieces being offered up 24-48 hours after the conclusion of a major auction, this will become less interesting, I'm sure.  Best, Lee  

I'm a flipper,  he's a flipper, she's a flipper, we're all flippers, wouldn't you like to be a flipper too?

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52 minutes ago, SquareChaos said:

I would hazard to guess that most here that hold a poor view on flipping would find someone buying a cover and then immediately listing it again for twice what they paid a little distasteful.

I have no problem with flipping, in any way, this is a matter of property rights and the free market. Let's try to remember the word 'free', eh? But doing so because you can doesn't mean you won't suffer some reputation backlash. That's the free market (of opinions) at work too. I don't flip comic/illustration art. There isn't enough arbitrage room netting out the friction of fees and taxes to make it worth it. To me. But I flip the you-know-what out of things people on this board are generally ignorant of and do not collect, but because I understand that reputational backlash aspect...I wait a minimum of six months before offering things for re-sale. As a rule. The key to doing this is maintaining proper liquidity levels such that you can wait it out and cover your living expenses* and carrying costs. The kids that max out all their credit cards to buy the hot new sneaker** drop and then must flip before the next bill comes in...they are the example to follow ;) Anyway, doing it this way you can flip all day long, but instead of today's score it's the stuff you bought back in May. Funny thing...I've found that in the stuff I'm doing this with, I tend to get even more ROI by waiting that six months vs. insta-flipping lol

 

*If you make a living at it, as I do.

**I don't deal in sneakers. Don't understand that market and never, ever bet (speculate) on something that I don't understand.

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