(attempted) Flip of the Day! 12 12

[Flambit]

I mean, WTF, dude.  How am I lying?

I can understand the rationale about filpping the 163.  Hey, this thread about people doing short term flipping.  Stuff like flipping the 163 is gonna get posted here; some people agree with your flip, and some don’t, and I’m totally cool with that - 100%.  That’s just a matter of opinion.  I have no hard feelings there.  You’re a business man, you're here to make money.  All good.

But you’ve me called a liar.  Twice.  That I take pretty seriously.   Got some hard feelings about that.  Hope to hear your reply about how I lied.

-Sam

Edited July 27, 2018 by Flambit

[MyNameIsLegion]

5 hours ago, romitaman said:

FIRSTLY..all people should get pissed at ANYONE who REFUSES to put any VISUAL price on art at a show or online.........

that should be the #1 thing collectors get pissed about as that is someone who is trying to take advantage of all possible buyers...but you can start that thread up later...LOL

 

OK, I think Flamebit has clearly explained himself, he didn't lie, his comments started before San Diego, and then he did see Mike at San Diego, and that should be sufficient for Mike. I have every reason to believe that @romitaman will retract calling him a liar. No need for a flamewar over it. BUT, this little nugget from Mike is worth mining.  Imagine a thread where every time the Donnely's quoted a price on a piece, since nothing is ever priced online or at a show, and it was posted here.  THAT would very interesting.  

[romitaman]

10 hours ago, MYNAMEISLEGION said:

OK, I think Flamebit has clearly explained himself, he didn't lie, his comments started before San Diego, and then he did see Mike at San Diego, and that should be sufficient for Mike. I have every reason to believe that @romitaman will retract calling him a liar. No need for a flamewar over it. BUT, this little nugget from Mike is worth mining.  Imagine a thread where every time the Donnely's quoted a price on a piece, since nothing is ever priced online or at a show, and it was posted here.  THAT would very interesting.  

So after i read  Sam's last post i do stand corrected....

So sam says NOW he came by my booth TWICE.....not once.....ok ......

 he also now says he did ask for a price  (A DAY LATER) all well and good... and I will take him at his word there as well. 

 

BUT.....my main issue here is.....which legion didnt seem to notice is......Sam posted that i quoted him 85k on the cover which never...EVER HAPPENED .....therefore....ITS A LIE or he mis-spoke!

and then making a smart alleck comment about me about that higher price also..... 

i'd bet my 10 thousand dollars to his 1 dollar he lied about what i quoted him on the cover,  if he truly did ask about the price on it in San Diego.

Maybe he just said that 85k price he claims I quoted him to get a rise out of others on this board  to unknowingly Besmirch me and my business in some way...not thinking i'd call him out on it?

 And Maybe it doesnt bother you if someone lies about you LEGION in your business you do for a living whatever that may be.....but i'm gonna take a stand when someone lies here about prices i quoted them at the San Diego show...sorry.

 

and i will say Again.. I dont know sam personally..... and sam doesnt know me.........it's nothing personal.....I just wanted the facts out and to correct the misinformation said about me on the prior page...

nothing more.

Edited July 27, 2018 by romitaman

[Rick2you2]

21 hours ago, MagnusX said:

Still is a Flip
and that is what this particular thread is about.

I don't see Flambit doing anything wrong.
He put his name and information on the open...

There is nothing "wrong" with the post. I just don't think the quoted sales price is outrageous in terms of the price which was paid for it. Some of the other stuff on this thread, however, is pretty stiff. 

[comicwiz]

12 hours ago, romitaman said:

it's fun and all to put people down when we don't understand their pricing

I do understand pricing fairly well. Most people that use comparables can arrive at a value for something. Although it isn't perfect, comparables research is the way it's done when art is appraised.

What I don't understand is how something can sell for X at auction, and be priced immediately soon after auction at near double, or over double the price. I realize there must be a glimmer of hope in that strategy that you underpaid, but values don't increase on a mark-up strategy without some form of price resistance. It's not so much about putting people down as it is natural for people to question something that sells that soon after a well publicized auction, particularly if they feel the cover already sold for a strong price. I would also remark that the true test of whether the price was too low would be to put it up for auction again, but I think we all know the likely outcome would be a depreciation.

It's also worth pointing out market resistance has a number of outcomes, being questioned in the open might be one of them. But it is far from being the worst. Being this is a community of collectors, I don't think anyone is particularly talking openly about this practice because they are anti-capitalist, but because we tend to all relate to the sting of overpaying for something. When a practice like this is openly discussed, it's verly likely because it does create a market condition where the likelihood of someone overpaying for art increases more dramatically than if the art being purchased ended up in a collection, rather than a dealer who is unwilling to give away their markup strategy.

Edited July 27, 2018 by comicwiz

[romitaman]

4 hours ago, comicwiz said:

I do understand pricing fairly well. Most people that use comparables can arrive at a value for something. Although it isn't perfect, comparables research is the way it's done when art is appraised.

What I don't understand is how something can sell for X at auction, and be priced immediately soon after auction at near double, or over double the price. I realize there must be a glimmer of hope in that strategy that you underpaid, but values don't increase on a mark-up strategy without some form of price resistance. It's not so much about putting people down as it is natural for people to question something that sells that soon after a well publicized auction, particularly if they feel the cover already sold for a strong price. I would also remark that the true test of whether the price was too low would be to put it up for auction again, but I think we all know the likely outcome would be a depreciation.

It's also worth pointing out market resistance has a number of outcomes, being questioned in the open might be one of them. But it is far from being the worst. Being this is a community of collectors, I don't think anyone is particularly talking openly about this practice because they are anti-capitalist, but because we tend to all relate to the sting of overpaying for something. When a practice like this is openly discussed, it's verly likely because it does create a market condition where the likelihood of someone overpaying for art increases more dramatically than if the art being purchased ended up in a collection, rather than a dealer who is unwilling to give away their markup strategy.

Comicwiz........ my post has nothing to do with how people price things... and what they price art at.......you can price a perceived 50k piece at 250k and it doesnt bother me a bit.....

if that's how you choose to do your business.....all fine and well......and the people who have that extra time to point these flip art pieces here in this thread can do as they wish.....

but you cant post publicly that someone quoted you a higher price than what you actually DID and get upset when you are called out on it....that's called LYING... (if LYING is too harsh of a word...then i'll say he just mis-spoke publicly)

my posts have nothing to do with pricing strategies and how we all derive values on art we offer for sale......... My postings here are about CORRECTING a post here by a collector about me, at the San Diego con,  that was not truthful...that's all.

Mike

Edited July 27, 2018 by romitaman

[delekkerste]

On 6/13/2018 at 9:31 PM, Panelfan1 said:

not a quick flip - or possibly not a flip at all if this item was traded in - but either way - price is almost 2x in a short time.

Neal Adams - Batman stacked deck

 

Albert Moy $25,000

HA.com Nov 2017 $13,145

 

Well, given that another one of these Adams Batman record covers went for $31K in the last auction, I'd say the $13K last November is looking like a bargain and that the price should be somewhere in the $20Ks. 

[AnkurJ]

So a question to everyone. What mark up do you feel is reasonable for a dealer or collector to put on a piece? I’ve sold pieces to dealers which were marked up by 100%. When you sell or trade it should it bother you? Or when you see a piece sold and then see it for much higher? 

So what would you say is reasonable? (Other than the few things that fall through the cracks)

[Bird]

2 minutes ago, AnkurJ said:

So a question to everyone. What mark up do you feel is reasonable for a dealer or collector to put on a piece? I’ve sold pieces to dealers which were marked up by 100%. When you sell or trade it should it bother you? Or when you see a piece sold and then see it for much higher? 

So what would you say is reasonable? (Other than the few things that fall through the cracks)

Maybe my opinion is illogical, but as the dollar amount grows the % should decrease. $50 to $100, have at it but $5000 to $10000 I have no interest. (That is my range of experience so I won't speak to higher amounts.) $5000 to $7500, yeah I've paid that % and even a bit more (on my BWS Rune/SS and I was the underbidder once even as it moved around frequently for a few years) but rarely and that is stretching my tolerance.

[Sideshow Bob]

6 hours ago, comicwiz said:

I do understand pricing fairly well. Most people that use comparables can arrive at a value for something. Although it isn't perfect, comparables research is the way it's done when art is appraised.

What I don't understand is how something can sell for X at auction, and be priced immediately soon after auction at near double, or over double the price.

It's funny. I just offered a piece to someone who said they paid for $500 for X, so wouldn't pay more than that for Z (same artist, totally different book). I pointed out that Z had two auction results at $1,000 each, so I would need that much for them. And that was the end of that. Moral of the story is, the market will bear what the market will bear. No one is forcing anyone to buy art from anyone. Comparables research can be helpful to get an idea of how much cold, hard cash a given person might be willing to part with for a given piece, but it doesn't have to justify how much someone needs to charge, and someone needs to pay. I have no problems with dealers marking up immediately after an auction...if I wanted it, I should have bought it then. If I want it now, I'd better pay someone for the privilege on buying it the first time while I dithered. 

When I first saw a piece I sold at Heritage (four years ago) show up on a dealer wall at NYCC for 3x what it sold for, I got a little miffed. But its was still there at the OA Con at the Penn Hotel this year and no one is buying it at that price, so the market is working as efficiently as it can. That works just fine for me.

Bob

[Flambit]

On 7/27/2018 at 2:29 AM, romitaman said:

So after i read  Sam's last post i do stand corrected....

So sam says NOW he came by my booth TWICE.....not once.....ok ......

 he also now says he did ask for a price  (A DAY LATER) all well and good... and I will take him at his word there as well. 

 

Ok Mike, since you want to be very specific, and you seem to be in a position where you're having to retract your slander about me lying, here are my three posts.  (you can check the dates if you wish).

--t's at Burkey's booth but I didn't ask him about it

--Well the good news is he was willing to come all the way down to 85k!  So please keep your lines orderly.   

--What am I lying about?  
Mike, my name is Sam.  I saw the 163 cover on your wall at SDCC a few days ago.  I asked you about it, either Friday or Saturday afternoon, and you said it was 90k, but you would do 85k.  I guess my comment was overly snarky, sure, but the whole point of this thread is about flipping pieces at extreme prices in very short periods of time, and since that piece sold for 59k in May and you're asking 90k, I feel like that qualifies for inclusion in this thread.  
Honestly, I think your prices otherwise aren't that bad!  
 

Here's a question: when did I EVER say I came to your booth only once?   Or twice?  Or a dozen times, for that matter?

Because, according to the above posts, I never SAID how many times I was at your booth.

More lies?  Or do you stand corrected yet again?

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by Flambit

[Rick2you2]

17 hours ago, AnkurJ said:

So a question to everyone. What mark up do you feel is reasonable for a dealer or collector to put on a piece? I’ve sold pieces to dealers which were marked up by 100%. When you sell or trade it should it bother you? Or when you see a piece sold and then see it for much higher? 

So what would you say is reasonable? (Other than the few things that fall through the cracks)

I agree with Bird. Let me also add that I think you will also find wider variations here because it is a "thin" market--there are a small number of interested parties, as compared to, say, used cars or sports memorabilia.  

[AnkurJ]

17 hours ago, Bird said:

Maybe my opinion is illogical, but as the dollar amount grows the % should decrease. $50 to $100, have at it but $5000 to $10000 I have no interest. (That is my range of experience so I won't speak to higher amounts.) $5000 to $7500, yeah I've paid that % and even a bit more (on my BWS Rune/SS and I was the underbidder once even as it moved around frequently for a few years) but rarely and that is stretching my tolerance.

So basically the lower the price a higher markup is more acceptable than a higher priced piece. So when dealers buy, it seems they want a huge margin on all pieces of at least 50%. Is this the market norm?

[comicwiz]

6 hours ago, AnkurJ said:

So basically the lower the price a higher markup is more acceptable than a higher priced piece. So when dealers buy, it seems they want a huge margin on all pieces of at least 50%. Is this the market norm?

Here is a real life situation to add a perspective to this discussion. Take away from it what you will, but I think it's application is pertinent.

I recently had two appraisal assignments, both with only example items, and one assignment a full story of OA. With one of the appraisals, the client wanted to underinsure because their carrier was (in their opinion) charging them a permium "beyond their budget." The strategy was to insure parts of the collection rather than the whole. My advice to them was that fire and water don't discriminate, and make up the higher statistic in post loss claims. The other was on the other end of the continuum, wanting to possibly insure it for more, and I explained the market fluctuations that have occured in the past year weren't conducive to this line of thinking, that their carrier might refuse to cover for that amount, or even worse, deny coverage on that amount in a loss scenario, and that an update in a year or two would be a better way to go, hoping by then to see a return to values from 2-3 years ago.

I'll explain my reasoning on the latter point. While it is the norm for people to put a replacement cost coverage that is usually double the value, I want to put it out there that this methodology is mostly used to accomodate an heirloom or never before seen piece on the open market. It doesn't apply as well in cases where items have already sold in the past, particularly with past sales that have occured less than a single calendar year. Rather, as an only example work, you are mostly leanining on "similar works" by the artist, with the same characters, same type of page, with as close to the same condition.

However, in a situation where a cover sold less than two months prior, with a past sale of $59K, in the hypothetical scenario where a loss event occurs, do you really think an insurer is going to pay $90K? I'm not a betting man, and this will vary from carrier to carrier, but I could not see them paying out that $90K amount.

To your question, if there is any normative practice, it should be more closely aligned to real world practices and principles. Comparables may be imperfect, but there are industries who use this information to make rather exacting choices and decisions.

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by comicwiz

[Pete Marino]

21 hours ago, AnkurJ said:

So a question to everyone. What mark up do you feel is reasonable for a dealer or collector to put on a piece? I’ve sold pieces to dealers which were marked up by 100%. When you sell or trade it should it bother you? Or when you see a piece sold and then see it for much higher? 

So what would you say is reasonable? (Other than the few things that fall through the cracks)

I don't think there is any answer to that.  What the market will bear vs auction results can fluctuate wildly.   So something may hammer at 3k, but there might be a few collectors that were not aware / interested in bidding, but would buy it for 3x that amount.  Then there are other times where auctions go nuts and the under bidder got their "example" so the next person that would put money up for it is at 60% of the hammer.  I think it is about looking at the art, figuring out the market and your timeline.

I'm firmly in the camp of if you own it, you can price it at whatever you want.  No one is entitled to anything they don't own.  It's not like we're talking about food, shelter and medical care here.

[Get Marwood & I]

[romitaman]

10 hours ago, Flambit said:

Ok Mike, since you want to be very specific, and you seem to be in a position where you're having to retract your slander about me lying, here are my three posts.  (you can check the dates if you wish).

--t's at Burkey's booth but I didn't ask him about it

--Well the good news is he was willing to come all the way down to 85k!  So please keep your lines orderly.   

--What am I lying about?  
Mike, my name is Sam.  I saw the 163 cover on your wall at SDCC a few days ago.  I asked you about it, either Friday or Saturday afternoon, and you said it was 90k, but you would do 85k.  I guess my comment was overly snarky, sure, but the whole point of this thread is about flipping pieces at extreme prices in very short periods of time, and since that piece sold for 59k in May and you're asking 90k, I feel like that qualifies for inclusion in this thread.  
Honestly, I think your prices otherwise aren't that bad!  
 

Here's a question: when did I EVER say I came to your booth only once?   Or twice?  Or a dozen times, for that matter?

Because, according to the above posts, I never SAID how many times I was at your booth.

More lies?  Or do you stand corrected yet again?

 

10 hours ago, Flambit said:

 

10 hours ago, Flambit said:

 

AGAIN you keep lying sam.....

i already said if you changed your tune and came by twice and asked for a price a second day then fine and i take you at your word.

i'm not sure why i have to explain this now for the 4th time why i posted here to correct your false statements....but i will again for you.....

 

you said i quoted you 85k on the dd 163 cover...that is a LIE!!!!!!

that entire weekend...anyone who asked about the cover....... i said i have 90k on it but i can come down to 80 if you have serious interest.

that was my quote to EVERY SINGLE PERSON during the 5 days at the show.

Then you post here to say i  quoted you from 90k to 85k with the little dig remark at me of....better hold those lines (because he came down a whopping 5k.)

Bottom line here is......if you cant do the honorable thing  when you weren't being truthful in your earlier post and get called out for it...........that's your choice..

do you stand corrected yet again?

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by romitaman

[Michael (OML)1]

I'll just add that I have had great dealings with Mike (Romitaman) and that I've bought several items from him shortly after auctions and paid more.  Mostly, I kick myself that I should have bought it and I don't begrudge Mike one iota -- buying undervalued assets is very smart.  I smile every time I buy it from him but, hey, I'm often glad to know it is still for sale. 

 

For what it is worth, I asked Mike about the DD cover and he told me exactly what he said here -- "Had $90 and could let it go for $80" -- I don't want to get dragged into this but I felt compelled to say that I did here the 90/80 from Mike and heard it a day or two later when he reiterated it to a friend of mine at his SDCC booth.

M

[eewwnuk]

Isnt 85 right in the middle of 90 and 80?   Seems like a silly back and forth to me 

[Rick2you2]

54 minutes ago, eewwnuk said:

Isnt 85 right in the middle of 90 and 80?   Seems like a silly back and forth to me 

Not only that, it just makes the people even madder.