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(attempted) Flip of the Day!
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2,075 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, AnkurJ said:

We have all moved on including major auction houses who have looked the other way. The effect this can have on the hobby is significant, and I as well as many others can’t ignore what was done.

And the solution is to keep commenting on Burkey's buy low/sell high practice? The man is a dealer. 

If what he did meant so much to you, then don't buy nor deal with him.  Change the channel. 

 

Edited by Matches_Malone
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2 hours ago, AnkurJ said:

We have all moved on including major auction houses who have looked the other way. The effect this can have on the hobby is significant, and I as well as many others can’t ignore what was done.

I didn't realize he had admitted to it and I didn't want to accuse anyone, but I agree that shilling is harmful. Especially if it's done by someone who deals in large volume, and especially high end work, if someone is flipping a lot of work and shilling to bid up auction prices that can move the needle across the board. Everyone here could be paying inflated prices still today as a result of someone having done/doing that.

Edited by NC101
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1 hour ago, Matches_Malone said:

And the solution is to keep commenting on Burkey's buy low/sell high practice? The man is a dealer. 

If what he did meant so much to you, then don't buy nor deal with him.  Change the channel. 

 

I think the issue is, like I said, those actions don't occur in a vacuum. They affect everybody, not just immediately but in a lasting way as well. It's sort of like saying "I dumped poison in the reservoir, but I only did it in one spot."

Edited by NC101
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56 minutes ago, Matches_Malone said:

And the solution is to keep commenting on Burkey's buy low/sell high practice? The man is a dealer. 

If what he did meant so much to you, then don't buy nor deal with him.  Change the channel. 

 

I never once commented on it nor do I have any interest in what he does. What was done should mean enough for everyone but as any addict, a dealer is needed. I now look at every auction of Spider-Man art and wonder what the truth behind the price and bidding is. Most of the time, I choose not to bid.

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1 hour ago, Taylor G said:

Probably because they've got a closet full of paper that they haven't cashed out yet.

Absolutely; the vested interests in this hobby are the most silent (and some also party to). Except me (and a few others, but mostly me).

My seven (approaching eight) figures in art "value" can go all the back to the six figures I paid or even less and I wouldn't change my tune one bit.

Bad behavior is bad behavior, as Matches tells us (cuz he's the Boss of Us?) we can decide and move on...and I have. I've decided Mike is unethical and unapolgetic and I'd be very surprised if that lack of ethics is contained to only the one admitted unethical action(s actuall). So I don't do business with him and I do enjoy watching him squirm forever and always on the subject. Of course not everyone that missed reading that thread four years ago have been given the same chance I've had to react in accordance with Matches directive :(

Getting a thread blown away does not = total memory hole, as long as any of us are still around to remember and there remain HUNDREDS (heh heh) of other venues where the information was disseminated, discussed and ultimately found to be unacceptable (legal in Dallas, TX or not), especially by a full-time "professional" ;)

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39 minutes ago, vodou said:

That was such an informative thread about the workings of auctions.  Thanks for saving it.  David

Edited by aokartman
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17 hours ago, vodou said:

Yeah funny thing, Mike told us seven ways from Sunday that there was nothing wrong with what he and his friends did, even though he never gave us a list of lots shilled on...but anyway, still the entire thread was blown away. Too funny. Hey if you can't find it in the archives...must not have happened...right?

The Tiananmen Square protests of comic art...

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4 hours ago, vodou said:

 

I don't think anybody has to worry about the integrity of this thread for long, Mods will surely blow most/all of it away, surprised they haven't already as most/all references to D'Amico and Burkey (Romitaman Team-Up or it is Two-In-One lol ) are usually. It's enough for me to just point that out.

One thing further...a true apology would have included a list of all items Mike put up to auction that were "bought in (back)" by "friends" and traded back to him (lol, same old, same old, not even particularly creative :) ) and it would have also -in this world of "quid pro quo" lol- included a second list of all items consigned by MIke's "friends" that he "bought in (back") for them.

Both lists were requested by me and others at the time, no such lists were ever provided though. Sorry...no full apology, then not an apology ;)

Further, since only the Mods could have nuked that entire Mike Admission Thread...I wonder what they think of people discussing and/or sharing subject matter regarding it on the Board. Yes or No Mods...deleted thread material can be discussed without Mod deletion on that basis (discussing "deleted thread") specifically? The answer to this question, which is not already addressed in Board TOC/Rules...would dictate is a separate Shill Thread could/should be started and if it would survive ;)

Shilling is wrong, but it doesn't affect me too much because I won't pay more than I feel something is worth to me, even if I miss something I wanted. When someone shills, they still have to pay Heritage 20% on the sale, plus taxes and shipping, so they must think the bidding is really low to spend that kind of money for nothing. Do I regret not buying some things when they were cheaper? Not really; I had other things to buy and I have never regarded this stuff as an investment no matter how much some of it is now worth.

There is a reason why some pieces sit for years in dealer inventory. Maybe we are the break point on some areas, as many have predicted here.

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1 minute ago, Rick2you2 said:

Shilling is wrong, but it doesn't affect me too much because I won't pay more than...

You came here about a year late for that mess, but let's just say it was widespread enough that none of us have any sense of what the market would look like without it, so toss all comps (in a sense). Sort of like how China just up and changed their method of accounting re: coronavirus. All nice and good but you've got to just toss the previous chart in the trash then, when the metric changes so dramatically.

This is why some of us wanted a list - to identify which markets and to what extent were most affected. Maybe it wasn't Phantom Stranger, maybe it was. Whatever you're looking at to base your "fair or too much" conclusion on...those sands be shifting right under your feet.

What I can promise you is, re: flipping, that earlier mentioned Jusko SSOC ain't moving (in reality, not that the site manager can't pull it and mark it 'sold' as it trades 'the circuit' yet again :) ) for 6500 or anything close to it. I don't believe this will be of any help to you though.

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8 minutes ago, vodou said:

You came here about a year late for that mess, but let's just say it was widespread enough that none of us have any sense of what the market would look like without it, so toss all comps (in a sense). Sort of like how China just up and changed their method of accounting re: coronavirus. All nice and good but you've got to just toss the previous chart in the trash then, when the metric changes so dramatically.

This is why some of us wanted a list - to identify which markets and to what extent were most affected. Maybe it wasn't Phantom Stranger, maybe it was. Whatever you're looking at to base your "fair or too much" conclusion on...those sands be shifting right under your feet.

What I can promise you is, re: flipping, that earlier mentioned Jusko SSOC ain't moving (in reality, not that the site manager can't pull it and mark it 'sold' as it trades 'the circuit' yet again :) ) for 6500 or anything close to it. I don't believe this will be of any help to you though.

You may be right about sand shifting, but if it gets too pricey, I don't buy no matter what. There are two PS covers coming up on Heritage in March, and I don't expect to bid on either one of them. There are also two Aparo covers recently listed on CAF, as well as a whole story, but no thanks at those prices.

From what I have read, the majority of the market is priced below $500, and a large percent of the market is below $5,000. What with student loan debt, housing prices, and auto prices, let alone raising familes, why anyone thinks that the next generation has tens of thousands to casually spend--on our nostalgia--is beyond me. 

And by the way, I agree those Jusko works were awful.

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On 2/15/2020 at 6:16 PM, vodou said:

Tens of thousands to spend, no problem...in renminbi :)

To gauge market conditions, one of the items I am watching, not buying, is Phantom Stranger cover no. 11 (Second Series).  In August, 2015, it sold on Heritage for $ 8,365. At some point, I recall a sale or attempted sale of around $10,500, but I don’t recall where. Currently, the Owner has been trying to sell it for $15,000, but obviously without success. I don’t think it is a very good cover, but it is Adams in his prime. If it sells for 15,000 or above, then I would be suspicious about its price legitimacy. I am also wondering about market conditions right now for subprime Adams. My suspicion is around $11,000, but who knows?

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On 2/12/2020 at 7:14 PM, NC101 said:

I think one thing people may be reacting to, I know I am, is your apparently flippant attitude (and you may not intend it that way, I just know that that's how it comes across to me). I think you're right that you, along with anybody else, have the right to flip. It's perfectly legal and plenty of people do it. You've also very rightly pointed out that you wouldn't be able to flip without people on the other end who are willing to buy. The thing is, that activity, like all activity, doesn't occur in a vacuum. It does have consequences, much as you may or may not like it to. 

If there is a bubble and it bursts, flipping will have played a significant role in that. While that may be fine and well for those who have been profiting off the bubble all along, it's going to leave a lot of collectors with very devalued collections. I personally don't care if people who create a bubble then lose by it, and I'll be happy to buy work off them at much lower prices if the opportunity arises, but I don't think that that's the majority of collectors (maybe I'm wrong). If there is a bubble, and especially if there is a recession in the next couple of years which it looks more and more as though there might be, then when that bubble bursts I imagine there will be plenty of people who are still paying off work that they suddenly can't afford. I imagine there will be plenty of people who suddenly need to sell work they've bought, losing quite a bit of money on the transaction that they may not be able to afford to lose. And all the other problems that come along with a sudden devaluation of your assets.

Like I said, you've rightly pointed out that in any transaction it takes two to tango. But if there is a crash at some point (which I personally think there will be), you won't be able to rightly claim you don't bear any responsibility for that. Not just from flipping in itself, but also from encouraging a climate that makes it seem harmless. Like it or not, your actions have consequences, which I'm sure you know but it still bears repeating.

All that being said, I don't get the impression that this thread is intended to shame, just to cast humorous glances at what might seem like increasingly ludicrous activity.

YES NC101.... this "40 year" bubble you speak of above  will burst at some point..I have no doubt it will one day.

You can blame me if you want, for that happening....i'm a decent part of the market as i probably (and albert) sell more silver and bronze and copper age art than anyone..

 So directly or indirectly i'd be part of whatever happens people decide to sell and unload while other people decide to not buy anymore..

I'd say people's income or lack of income globally in their jobs would be more of a reason people stop buying comic art anymore.

it seems you re giving me very high status in our hobby (which I do appreciate) for you to say i'm responsible in some way for the day our market falters.

I will take that responsibility you want me to take as a badge of honor...as when that day happens i will most assuredly lose more than anyone reading this, for what art i have in my collection.

20 years ago I told a close art friend who has been in the hobby 15 years before I got in,  that 2025 would be when our market starts to go downhill...this was BEFORE the Marvel movies started coming out.....

now I feel it will be closer to around 2040 if and when things start to pan out when guys my age and a little younger start to seriously sell off their collections.....but like any market...stock or whatever.....time will tell.

flippant attitude Mike...LOL

 

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On 2/14/2020 at 9:07 PM, vodou said:

Even though he keeps telling us that's exactly what he's doing? (PS -we all know that's BS.) I don't need to quote him here, ya'll can just go back through the last five pages and read for yourselves lollollol

huh???

mr mike voodoo......you say i've posted here that I buy art to sell for the same price i pay?.......... i really said that? ;) 

I "have said"  in the past (and I will ALWAYS say today and in the future) that I ALWAYS trade and/or sell OLDER inventory...at value for value to get new inventory in to keep things fresh so I have more art to offer customers.

I feel this is a good business practice for me.......  that doesn't mean its good for others...as every dealer or collector has their own way the conduct business..... I never tell anyone what they should and shouldnt do..

But i know mr mike voodoo, you like telling EVERYONE your way of thinking on an almost daily basis ......its sort of your mantra here to tell other what to do... and so be it..... as this is a chat board.....

and it seems that since you post more than anyone here......You probably get enough people believing you know what's really going on in our entire hobby..........and good for you......

I will now leave here to put a LOT LOT more FRESH art to flip on my website, (at exactly what i paid for it according to mr mike)..or.... Do I  massively overprice it so i can burst our art bubble (according to a previous post)

........either way.....I'll do my best to figure it out........Happy Art Collecting folks!!!!  :)

ROMITAMAN 

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On 2/12/2020 at 7:14 PM, NC101 said:

 

If there is a bubble and it bursts, flipping will have played a significant role in that. While that may be fine and well for those who have been profiting off the bubble all along, it's going to leave a lot of collectors with very devalued collections. I personally don't care if people who create a bubble then lose by it, and I'll be happy to buy work off them at much lower prices if the opportunity arises, but I don't think that that's the majority of collectors (maybe I'm wrong). If there is a bubble, and especially if there is a recession in the next couple of years which it looks more and more as though there might be, then when that bubble bursts I imagine there will be plenty of people who are still paying off work that they suddenly can't afford. I imagine there will be plenty of people who suddenly need to sell work they've bought, losing quite a bit of money on the transaction that they may not be able to afford to lose. And all the other problems that come along with a sudden devaluation of your assets.

Like I said, you've rightly pointed out that in any transaction it takes two to tango. But if there is a crash at some point (which I personally think there will be), you won't be able to rightly claim you don't bear any responsibility for that. Not just from flipping in itself, but also from encouraging a climate that makes it seem harmless. Like it or not, your actions have consequences, which I'm sure you know but it still bears repeating.

All that being said, I don't get the impression that this thread is intended to shame, just to cast humorous glances at what might seem like increasingly ludicrous activity.

There are ways to enjoy this hobby without worrying about a future bubble—just adjust your field of vision. For example, some people happily collect commissions, art from independents, and Modern Age pieces. I also think parts of the market are not particularly appreciated by collectors. I find myself increasingly drawn to old romance comic pages with outrageously dated dialog. They just make me   grin from the silliness of them (“Oh why can’t Brad see how perfect we would be together? If only I could afford a better dress, like Debbie”). Then, there are all the War comics, which with some exceptions, don’t come with high prices. Just don’t get caught up in this cycle of pricing; it isn’t worth it.

 

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3 hours ago, romitaman said:

YES NC101.... this "40 year" bubble you speak of above  will burst at some point..I have no doubt it will one day.

You can blame me if you want, for that happening....i'm a decent part of the market as i probably (and albert) sell more silver and bronze and copper age art than anyone..

 So directly or indirectly i'd be part of whatever happens people decide to sell and unload while other people decide to not buy anymore..

I'd say people's income or lack of income globally in their jobs would be more of a reason people stop buying comic art anymore.

it seems you re giving me very high status in our hobby (which I do appreciate) for you to say i'm responsible in some way for the day our market falters.

I will take that responsibility you want me to take as a badge of honor...as when that day happens i will most assuredly lose more than anyone reading this, for what art i have in my collection.

20 years ago I told a close art friend who has been in the hobby 15 years before I got in,  that 2025 would be when our market starts to go downhill...this was BEFORE the Marvel movies started coming out.....

now I feel it will be closer to around 2040 if and when things start to pan out when guys my age and a little younger start to seriously sell off their collections.....but like any market...stock or whatever.....time will tell.

flippant attitude Mike...LOL

 

It looks to me like a bubble that's been forming since around 2010-2012 or so. I don't blame you alone for that happening, I think you probably share responsibility, particularly because I do think you have high status in this hobby. Flipping contributes to bubbles, especially when it becomes the norm. I phrased what I wrote about shilling as a hypothetical because I don't know the extent to which you use/used shilling, so I don't know the extent of the effect on the market. As far as when the market starts to go downhill, my guess is within the next two years, but that's a guess. If that's the case, I'd say you're a talented prognosticator. In any case, my original intent wasn't so much to assign blame as it was to point out to you a possible reason that you take so much s### in this thread.

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3 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

There are ways to enjoy this hobby without worrying about a future bubble—just adjust your field of vision. For example, some people happily collect commissions, art from independents, and Modern Age pieces. I also think parts of the market are not particularly appreciated by collectors. I find myself increasingly drawn to old romance comic pages with outrageously dated dialog. They just make me   grin from the silliness of them (“Oh why can’t Brad see how perfect we would be together? If only I could afford a better dress, like Debbie”). Then, there are all the War comics, which with some exceptions, don’t come with high prices. Just don’t get caught up in this cycle of pricing; it isn’t worth it.

 

Thanks, and I get that, and I'm personally sticking mainly to newer artists whose prices haven't exploded. I really enjoy the searching, it's fun and I feel doubly satisfied when I find someone I think is genuinely amazing who also hasn't gotten expensive. That's really becoming the fun of this hobby for me. I'm not worried for my own sake about a crash, because I don't buy for investment, and I stick to the shallow end of the pool (aside from a couple purchases early on that in retrospect I wish I hadn't made, but live n learn). The idea of a current bubble bothers me because it means inflated pricing and I don't like to pay too much.

Do you have a caf gallery of your romance pages? I'd be interested in seeing them :x

Edited by NC101
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18 minutes ago, NC101 said:

It looks to me like a bubble that's been forming since around 2010-2012 or so. I don't blame you alone for that happening, I think you probably share responsibility, particularly because I do think you have high status in this hobby. Flipping contributes to bubbles, especially when it becomes the norm. I phrased what I wrote about shilling as a hypothetical because I don't know the extent to which you use/used shilling, so I don't know the extent of the effect on the market. As far as when the market starts to go downhill, my guess is within the next two years, but that's a guess. If that's the case, I'd say you're a talented prognosticator. In any case, my original intent wasn't so much to assign blame as it was to point out to you a possible reason that you take so much s### in this thread.

I hardly call this taking S#### NC...It's more about 2 guys right now who have posted for many YEARS about one incident they have very little facts to back up, yet they use this exact forum as their way they can feel bigger by trying to bring me down. Both of these guys would never come up to me at a show or call me on a phone and voice these issues directly to me for honest answers, but they will do it here for everyone to read so they can get some people to side with them.........It's ok and I know the situation, as that's what a chat board is all about. :)

Edited by romitaman
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