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(attempted) Flip of the Day!
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2,075 posts in this topic

Mike

I have zero interest in trying to “bring you down.” I choose no longer to deal with you and many others in this hobby due to the fact that you feel your actions are excusable. Whether I speak to you here or at a show, I would hardly expect an honest answer. All things are taken with a grain of salt.

That being said, newcomers in the hobby should know the truth of all that has happened. Thank you for confirming it again here so we don’t have to dig up old threads, some of which are long gone.

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3 hours ago, NC101 said:

It looks to me like a bubble that's been forming since around 2010-2012 or so. I don't blame you alone for that happening, I think you probably share responsibility, particularly because I do think you have high status in this hobby. Flipping contributes to bubbles, especially when it becomes the norm. I phrased what I wrote about shilling as a hypothetical because I don't know the extent to which you use/used shilling, so I don't know the extent of the effect on the market. As far as when the market starts to go downhill, my guess is within the next two years, but that's a guess. If that's the case, I'd say you're a talented prognosticator. In any case, my original intent wasn't so much to assign blame as it was to point out to you a possible reason that you take so much s### in this thread.

its so easy and convenient to blame other people.    How about we all pay what we want to pay and take responsibility for what we do or don't buy?

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21 minutes ago, ThothAmon said:

If true, RomitaMan (and Heritage) shill bidding auctions definitely skews the market and is not harmless. As others have pointed out the long term health of the market is definitely jeopardized by these non-transparent cabals artificially setting market floors. 

I think you have to be naive to think it never happens.

I think you also have to be a conspiracy theorist to think its rampant.    A seller doesn't want to pay the selling fees and have a piece go stale after a public auction when they buy it back.   Its not in their best interest unless the piece really dive bombs.   Paying 10-40% depending on venue and arrangement just to make your art go stale?   That’s basically the scenario laid out on the podcast with Felix and Halperin. 

Edited by Bronty
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3 hours ago, NC101 said:

Thanks, and I get that, and I'm personally sticking mainly to newer artists whose prices haven't exploded. I really enjoy the searching, it's fun and I feel doubly satisfied when I find someone I think is genuinely amazing who also hasn't gotten expensive. That's really becoming the fun of this hobby for me. I'm not worried for my own sake about a crash, because I don't buy for investment, and I stick to the shallow end of the pool (aside from a couple purchases early on that in retrospect I wish I hadn't made, but live n learn). The idea of a current bubble bothers me because it means inflated pricing and I don't like to pay too much.

Do you have a caf gallery of your romance pages? I'd be interested in seeing them :x

Sorry, I am thinking of buying them. I only have one so far. I mostly stick to Phantom Stranger art. They are not hard to find. 

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27 minutes ago, Bronty said:

I think you have to be naive to think it never happens.

I think you also have to be a conspiracy theorist to think its rampant.    A seller doesn't want to pay the selling fees and have a piece go stale after a public auction when they buy it back.   Its not in their best interest unless the piece really dive bombs.   Paying 10-40% depending on venue and arrangement just to make your art go stale?   That’s basically the scenario laid out on the podcast with Felix and Halperin. 

Everyone is running their own internal "cup is half full or cup is half empty" on human nature and humanity. There's naive and there's paranoia (not conspiracy theory, as we're already at the fact stage here) at polar opposites of that running. Most fall somewhere in the middle, their view of cups and human/humanity nature, with a bias more positive or more negative. I run really negative - the assumption being that if I leave my wallet open and walk away, it probably won't come back to me at all, but even if it does - the cash will be missing. That is a self-protective bias that I've found more confirmed than denied by more personal experiences in life but especially in dealing with people in comic art; sadly, the cheatery runs hot in the hobby.

Nonetheless, on occasion I have been surprised by some few in the hobby as to ethics and the same in The Big World too. Not often, but on occasion. Those are the people I call out here positively, including yourself @Bronty, @Nexus, @BCarter27 and a few others. Not many though. That's my "informed" bias. Those that have floated through life either oblivious to the general shillery (of Life, not the hobby specifically) or somehow not been personally taken advantage of...their bias will be a lot more positive. But I think that may change once they get taken. I've seen many once-quite-positive folks change their tune dramatically to the opposite end, and in the case of the hobby - leave the hobby even, because reality smacking them (obviously or finally) in the face was just that demoralizing. Costly too.

I don't think it should be ignored then that historically the junk (let's say) is most prevalent in unregulated areas of the economy, places where caveat emptor rules but is not explicitly stated to be so (for the newbs and starry eyed). That would be hobbies for sure, where self-made collectors dealers can/will do anything to turn a nickel into a dime, to advance their collection or their bank account. Whether the methods employed are legal or not (a matter of law), ethical or not (a matter of opinion), I think the prudent person of limited means to employ into a passionate hobby area should have both eyes open that they are treading in places where those wishing to exploit loopholes (or worse) would have a greater likelihood of success in the matter.

In other words - comics and comic art markets = CAVEAT EMPTOR ;)

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2 hours ago, Bronty said:

its so easy and convenient to blame other people.    How about we all pay what we want to pay and take responsibility for what we do or don't buy?

Yes my brother! For all newbies this is how you should approach collecting. There are many collectors here that will share real honest opinions on FMV it’s not a total mine field. However be realistic. Buying from anyone, their motivation is to make as much as they can. 

At the end of the day you the individual are responsible for what you buy or sell and for how much. Have fun and buy what you love , that’s the best type of investment.

 

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1 hour ago, vodou said:

Everyone is running their own internal "cup is half full or cup is half empty" on human nature and humanity. There's naive and there's paranoia (not conspiracy theory, as we're already at the fact stage here) at polar opposites of that running. Most fall somewhere in the middle, their view of cups and human/humanity nature, with a bias more positive or more negative. I run really negative - the assumption being that if I leave my wallet open and walk away, it probably won't come back to me at all, but even if it does - the cash will be missing. That is a self-protective bias that I've found more confirmed than denied by more personal experiences in life but especially in dealing with people in comic art; sadly, the cheatery runs hot in the hobby.

Nonetheless, on occasion I have been surprised by some few in the hobby as to ethics and the same in The Big World too. Not often, but on occasion. Those are the people I call out here positively, including yourself @Bronty, @Nexus, @BCarter27 and a few others. Not many though. That's my "informed" bias. Those that have floated through life either oblivious to the general shillery (of Life, not the hobby specifically) or somehow not been personally taken advantage of...their bias will be a lot more positive. But I think that may change once they get taken. I've seen many once-quite-positive folks change their tune dramatically to the opposite end, and in the case of the hobby - leave the hobby even, because reality smacking them (obviously or finally) in the face was just that demoralizing. Costly too.

I don't think it should be ignored then that historically the junk (let's say) is most prevalent in unregulated areas of the economy, places where caveat emptor rules but is not explicitly stated to be so (for the newbs and starry eyed). That would be hobbies for sure, where self-made collectors dealers can/will do anything to turn a nickel into a dime, to advance their collection or their bank account. Whether the methods employed are legal or not (a matter of law), ethical or not (a matter of opinion), I think the prudent person of limited means to employ into a passionate hobby area should have both eyes open that they are treading in places where those wishing to exploit loopholes (or worse) would have a greater likelihood of success in the matter.

In other words - comics and comic art markets = CAVEAT EMPTOR ;)

Nailed it!

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On 2/17/2020 at 3:56 AM, romitaman said:

my personal inventory list of what I've bought and sold on site and at auctions to appease them.....

At the time, I emailed HA and requested they publicly post ALL of the lots you consigned with them. No reply. That would be the only way I think you could really put this to rest.

On 2/17/2020 at 9:43 AM, vodou said:

Finally, back to your own words and action as written four years ago:

Thanks for re-posting that. I know many of the long-term boardies here hate to re-hash such bad memories. It's not why we come here to commune about our hobby as an "escape" from work, stress, etc., BUT I was astonished to find the original thread zapped. Not cool mods. I know comics have dealt with this behaviour in the past and to a much greater extent, but this was a big eye-opener for the OA corner. So it is important that those coming in know what's transpired in case it happens again -- And not just from Mike Burkey, but to get an overall sense of how the art market can go awry.

Now, that being said, as much as I dislike this "flipping" thread -- and I've said earlier in it that I think it promotes a guilt-before-innocence mentality -- I have taken @Lee B.'s point (and others) that it does serve an information purpose to the otherwise uninformed. (I just operate on the baseline that you have to do due diligence on your own buys, but OK... we'll crowdsource it.)

*And on a deeper point, I agree with @AnkurJ that I dislike that dealers get a flipping pass while collectors who might resell get dinged. People, this is the flat-world internet age. The reality is that you are all dealers now because you have direct access to your buyers in a way you never had before. Hence, dealers are no longer necessary gatekeepers. And flipping is just a matter of a time line. I wish I could keep it all, but anyone trying to actively build their collection toward certain goals on a limited budget is going to have to sell/trade. But carry on with my least favorite thread.

Edited by BCarter27
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My hope is that new collectors will enter the hobby and not think of it as a mindfield. So I just want to offer again to any new people in the hobby... feel free to PM me if you have questions on something you are considering buying. If it is something I or my wife are interested in, I will let you know up front that it's a conflict of interest. My wife and I have been lucky to have met folks here and at cons to bounce potential purchases off of occasionally. I'd like to pay it forward.

And I'm sure there are other boardies here who are retired or semi-retired from buying who would be happy to comment via PM on your purchases too.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, BCarter27 said:

So I just want to offer again to any new people in the hobby... feel free to PM me if you have questions on something you are considering buying. I

Everyone should have at least one "friend" in the hobby to act in this manner, the more the better too. It's not just newbs to the hobby that can benefit either. When I was ready to spend five figures on a Jeffrey Jones oil, a market I was not previously familiar with, I was lucky enough to know (through CFA-APA) three collectors that know just about all there is to know on the artist, the body of work, and what constituted a fair price to pay for a particular piece i was visually drawn to. The result was a deal I was happy making and now I own the painting; I never would have moved forward without that assistance, even though I've been at this thing for nearly thirty years.

Speaking to @BCarter27's comment that we're all collectors; we're all dealers; we're all flippers. He is correct.

There is no essential difference and I enjoy reading this thread but I don't call people out or get excessively worked up on on the subject unless something else that's underhanded is occurring. Underhanded actions kill the fun, not talking/revisiting the subject of underhanded actions.

Part of the result of my doing my full due diligence on the Jeffrey Jones oil market, including consulting with those three SMEs, was that I won a Jeffrey Jones oil on ComicLink for what I felt was below fair market value. My education on the subject to that point had taught me enough to identify this. When I resold it six months later for more than 300% return, was I a flipper, a dealer, or..? What I was for sure was the guy that got that original ComicLink consignor, that I bought from, one extra bid at the end, where no other was coming, an extra real $100 (less CLink fee) in his pocket. I added liquidity to the market and directly to his pocket (and an extra $10 to ComicLinks too!) And when I resold it for more (much, much more :) ) somebody else was given the same chance to show me wrong, show my price wrong by buying for their own reasons something I was willing to let go of for a price. If nobody (not dealer, not collectors, not flippers) did then there would be no art market at all. Everyone of us has built our collections by purchasing art from someone else that's selling. It doesn't work any other way.

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22 minutes ago, BCarter27 said:

My hope is that new collectors will enter the hobby and not think of it as a mindfield. So I just want to offer again to any new people in the hobby... feel free to PM me if you have questions on something you are considering buying. If it is something I or my wife are interested in, I will let you know up front that it's a conflict of interest. My wife and I have been lucky to have met folks here and at cons to bounce potential purchases off of occasionally. I'd like to pay it forward.

And I'm sure there are other boardies here who are retired or semi-retired from buying who would be happy to comment via PM on your purchases too.

 

 

I second that. I promise to disclose if I have a personal interest in anything that is discussed. I am a collector not a dealer. But I’ve bought and sold comic art for 24 years now.

I will always give my best advice to try and help out. It’s in all of our best interest to participate in a healthy hobby.

1A845060-C7C4-4AE3-99A8-2AA7F4B8B59A.thumb.jpeg.ab7ebfbcce3db09cfd152a8127a6dfbb.jpeg

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On 6/13/2017 at 8:58 AM, Lee B. said:

Good morning!  I follow art sales fairly carefully and am constantly impressed by the ambitions of art sellers to turn a quick profit.  I admit to having done this in the past, but on other occasions my attempts to "flip" art have been disasters where I have lost money.  It's a fact of life, and I'm not passing judgement, but I think it might be helpful to less experienced collectors to highlight instances where art is being offered at multiple times of a recent sale price.  It's a free country (sorry Vodou!), and sometimes you do get a real bargain and can resell at fair market value to make a quick profit.  But not always.  So, I'd like to highlight a page that I normally would not be interested in, except for the disparity in pricing over an eight-month period.

$478 in November 2016:

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/fred-carrillo-the-savage-sword-of-conan-170-back-cover-original-art-marvel-1990-/a/7141-94184.s?ic4=OtherResults-SampleItem-071515

$1,800 today:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Savage-Sword-of-Conan-170-MARVEL-1990-Original-Art-Back-Cover-Fred-Carrillo/232232885875?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D41376%26meid%3D513b07248aa245e2a7a5ca7a1923c056%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D162543243450&autorefresh=true

Cheers, Lee

Amazing this thread all started less than 3 years ago with a humbly little Fred Carillo SSOC #170 back cover pin-up. Now over 75,000 views later. Impressive.

Edited by lobrac
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19 minutes ago, lobrac said:

Amazing this thread all started less than 3 years ago with a humbly little Fred Carillo SSOC #170 back cover pin-up. Now over 75,000 views later. Impressive.

Did the Carillo ever sell? If so, for what amount? The eBay link is dead.

Much more interesting to me than what people try to ask on a flip is what they actually get in cash (not "trade" lol ) on a flip.

I bought that aforementioned second Jeffrey Jones oil for $3k cash and re-sold it for $9,500 cash, not "trade". That right there is a real sale.

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14 minutes ago, vodou said:

Did the Carillo ever sell? If so, for what amount? The eBay link is dead.

Much more interesting to me than what people try to ask on a flip is what they actually get in cash (not "trade" lol ) on a flip.

I bought that aforementioned second Jeffrey Jones oil for $3k cash and re-sold it for $9,500 cash, not "trade". That right there is a real sale.

I don't believe the Carillo sold in that eBay auction. Not sure though. I do seem to remember it for sale elsewhere later, but not sure if it was a posted sale with a fixed price tag or public auction. It's all a blur. The Carillo did finally appear on CAF last year, so I would imagine the new owner knows for sure.

https://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=1549599

I remember initially liking the image when it was listed on HA. Considered bidding, but did not. Then I saw it not long afterwards on eBay with the mega-marked up BIN and sent those links to Lee. The rest is history.

Edited by lobrac
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To help this thread get back to sharing examples of art offered for sale or sold at one price and then soon offered for sale again by someone else at a higher price, I wanted to point to a Wrightson Swamp Thing example from 1990. 

$550 in February 1990:  http://www.comicartads.com/content/swamp-thing-4-page-13-0

$650 in December 1990:  http://www.comicartads.com/content/swamp-thing-4-page-13

 

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