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(attempted) Flip of the Day!
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2,075 posts in this topic

On 8/6/2017 at 11:45 AM, batman_fan said:

I was contacted several times about a piece I had on my CAF page.  It wasn't something I loved but it was a Byrne splash page that had a ton of detail.  The potential buyer had two pages from the same issue (either right before or right after my page).  I finally agreed to sell it to him for a decent price.  He listed all three pages for sell shortly after.  Now maybe it was just one of those "life happens" things but since then if someone inquires about a piece that I may be willing to part with, they are going to pay way above market price if they really want it.  

Yep. The flippers are making it harder for the rest of us in this hobby to buy pieces for a fair price (for both sides).

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On 8/6/2017 at 11:45 AM, batman_fan said:

I was contacted several times about a piece I had on my CAF page.  It wasn't something I loved but it was a Byrne splash page that had a ton of detail.  The potential buyer had two pages from the same issue (either right before or right after my page).  I finally agreed to sell it to him for a decent price.  He listed all three pages for sell shortly after.  Now maybe it was just one of those "life happens" things but since then if someone inquires about a piece that I may be willing to part with, they are going to pay way above market price if they really want it.  

Greg – I am the real deal if you ever decide to move the Sal art brother! ;)

 

This is the type of story that is really frustrating as a collector. It reminds me of Adam Hughes throwing up his hands after he got conned into a piece for a “fan” that showed up on eBay almost immediately. The part that really stinks is that the true collectors suffer.

 

Anyone have success in weeding out the true inquiries vs the fake-fan that is just trying to buy low and sell higher?

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1 hour ago, JadeGiant said:

Greg – I am the real deal if you ever decide to move the Sal art brother! ;)

 

This is the type of story that is really frustrating as a collector. It reminds me of Adam Hughes throwing up his hands after he got conned into a piece for a “fan” that showed up on eBay almost immediately. The part that really stinks is that the true collectors suffer.

 

Anyone have success in weeding out the true inquiries vs the fake-fan that is just trying to buy low and sell higher?

You can execute a sales contract that stipulates if the piece is put up for resale within 12 months of purchase, you get 10% of the proceeds, etc. That way, if the guy really wants to flip it, at least you get a piece of the action on it. Otherwise, it creates an incentive to hold the piece.

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1 hour ago, JadeGiant said:

Greg – I am the real deal if you ever decide to move the Sal art brother! ;)

 

This is the type of story that is really frustrating as a collector. It reminds me of Adam Hughes throwing up his hands after he got conned into a piece for a “fan” that showed up on eBay almost immediately. The part that really stinks is that the true collectors suffer.

 

Anyone have success in weeding out the true inquiries vs the fake-fan that is just trying to buy low and sell higher?

It shouldn't really matter if they are paying what you are asking for the the OA.

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10 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

It shouldn't really matter if they are paying what you are asking for the the OA.

Well, for art listed for sale I would agree but that’s not really the discussion (at least in my eyes). This is about a buyer trying to obtain art not for sale – I suppose it could also be for someone trying to get a heavy discount on art for sale using the “true’fan” angle with the intent to flip all along.

 

I haven’t sold any art so I can’t really speak from that side of the equation. As a buyer, I have had people sell art to me that is less than they would likely get in the open market. These are good friends and ones that I have likely helped in some way as well. In these cases, I would not even consider flipping or even selling at all.

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I have conflicting feelings about this thread. On the one hand, I support everyone's efforts to discuss whatever aspect of the hobby they like.

However, I think many are failing to remember a few things...

1. Flipping is just a matter of timing. Eventually we are all selling. Even if you are sitting on an "inventory" piece for a few years that you have no attachment to, you are still flipping. I've had some of the top collectors in the hobby tell me, "If you see something undervalued, pick it up." It's either resale or trade bait for the stuff you really love. Because bargain opportunities are rare. And bargain opportunities for grail pieces are almost impossible. So you take the bargain opportunity and resell/trade your way to the grail. So, I don't buy into this "true collector" idea. Being a seller-collector makes you a better buyer-collector. It sharpens your eye. And if you've traded/resold your way to a grail piece while on a budget, you worked a lot harder for it than the so-called "true collector" who just wrote the check.

2. And this is the WAY more important point. Flipping is good for the market. It is an attempted sale after the "OMG, it's fresh to market! I MUST have it!" wears off. It acts as a much-needed price check when the flip isn't successful. When it is successful, it is usually a matter of marketing or a change of venue -- which is often useful in this age of art explosion. Someone on the boards rightly said a few months ago that between ebay, the auction houses, CAF, etc. you can live & breathe this stuff constantly. The high rollers are usually busy people. They only show up to event auctions and may ignore the in-between stuff.

3.It is up to the first seller to price fairly so they have no regrets when it is resold. Everything else is just nonsense. Adam Hughes knows now not to give away his art. That's a tough lesson for any artist in any field.

4. Finally, don't step on another man's hustle.

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37 minutes ago, BCarter27 said:

I have conflicting feelings about this thread. On the one hand, I support everyone's efforts to discuss whatever aspect of the hobby they like.

However, I think many are failing to remember a few things...

1. Flipping is just a matter of timing. Eventually we are all selling. Even if you are sitting on an "inventory" piece for a few years that you have no attachment to, you are still flipping. I've had some of the top collectors in the hobby tell me, "If you see something undervalued, pick it up." It's either resale or trade bait for the stuff you really love. Because bargain opportunities are rare. And bargain opportunities for grail pieces are almost impossible. So you take the bargain opportunity and resell/trade your way to the grail. So, I don't buy into this "true collector" idea. Being a seller-collector makes you a better buyer-collector. It sharpens your eye. And if you've traded/resold your way to a grail piece while on a budget, you worked a lot harder for it than the so-called "true collector" who just wrote the check.

2. And this is the WAY more important point. Flipping is good for the market. It is an attempted sale after the "OMG, it's fresh to market! I MUST have it!" wears off. It acts as a much-needed price check when the flip isn't successful. When it is successful, it is usually a matter of marketing or a change of venue -- which is often useful in this age of art explosion. Someone on the boards rightly said a few months ago that between ebay, the auction houses, CAF, etc. you can live & breathe this stuff constantly. The high rollers are usually busy people. They only show up to event auctions and may ignore the in-between stuff.

3.It is up to the first seller to price fairly so they have no regrets when it is resold. Everything else is just nonsense. Adam Hughes knows now not to give away his art. That's a tough lesson for any artist in any field.

4. Finally, don't step on another man's hustle.

I consider timing to be the at the very heart of what is defined as flipping. It creates inflated market values that breed tulipmania that will eventually bite you in the . 

If you buy a $200 random Sal Buscema Tarzan page for $200 from HA that really shows $240 with juice- tack on shipping and sales tax and you're in for about $275.  Then you try and flip that the minute you're grubby paws get it for even a meager 25% and you're at almost $350.  After fees you maybe net $50-60 bucks, but the next guy just paid 75% more just weeks after it first was in the market. Nothing nearly doubles like that overnight, not in a stable market. It's great if you aren't holding anything when it crashes but all the real collectors are screwed. For collectors that hold or trade up like real collectors are apt to do, you've potentially lost all liquidity. That $200 Tarzan page is still worth the same, but $150 went to HA, tax, shipping and PayPal fees. You're upside down on a flipped piece the minute you receive it. 

Edited by MYNAMEISLEGION
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53 minutes ago, BCarter27 said:

And if you've traded/resold your way to a grail piece while on a budget, you worked a lot harder for it than the so-called "true collector" who just wrote the check.

There certainly is something super satisfying in working hard to achieve a goal.  Seems part and parcel to America, makes one feel big and strong.  That said, I'd also assume that lots (not all, but lots) of people worked hard to attain a position in life to "just write a check".  I bet they feel pretty good in their achievements too.

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2 minutes ago, Andahaion said:

There certainly is something super satisfying in working hard to achieve a goal.  Seems part and parcel to America, makes one feel big and strong.  That said, I'd also assume that lots (not all, but lots) of people worked hard to attain a position in life to "just write a check".  I bet they feel pretty good in their achievements too.

I certainly wouldn't argue against that. But just look at the sour grapes thrown at the "Impossible Collection". We can't hate on the "true collector / check-writers" and also hate on the "blue collar collector" buying/selling/wheeling/dealing his way to the same goal. No cake and eating.

In my opinion, if you're not a seller at some point, you're playing this game wrong. And the evidence bears this out. Take the top 20 collections in this hobby. I bet most of them are dealers or heads of auction houses or reps.

27 minutes ago, MYNAMEISLEGION said:

That $200 Tarzan page is still worth the same, but $150 went to HA, tax, shipping and PayPal fees. You're upside down on a flipped piece the minute you receive it. 

I don't see it that way. It was always a $275 piece. The seller has to decide if at $350*0.87 (auction plus PayPal, say) the profit is worth the labor. If not, they will stop doing it.

And if it doesn't sell, we all see it too. Calling out an attempted flip before a sale feels like bad manners to me. Calling out a successful one would be useful market data.

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2 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

It shouldn't really matter if they are paying what you are asking for the the OA.

False pretenses in convincing someone to sell a piece or for an artist to create a piece for the person who used false pretenses to convince the artist to create the piece for them (instead of someone else) matters...A LOT.

Edited by comix4fun
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Setting aside that false pretenses are bad in general, how do you convince someone to sell a piece under false pretenses? (Buy, yes... You misrepresent the item.) Why are you giving them a deal in the first place if you don't know them? If you're not attached to a piece, you negotiate a number, close the deal, and move on. If they flip it successfully, they knew the correct venue for sale and you didn't. Lesson learned for next time.

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9 minutes ago, BCarter27 said:

Setting aside that false pretenses are bad in general, how do you convince someone to sell a piece under false pretenses? (Buy, yes... You misrepresent the item.) Why are you giving them a deal in the first place if you don't know them? If you're not attached to a piece, you negotiate a number, close the deal, and move on. If they flip it successfully, they knew the correct venue for sale and you didn't. Lesson learned for next time.

 

Happens in business transactions of all kinds all over the planet and every day. People use certain terms, promises and assertions to obtain advantage in a deal they would not have received otherwise...and those terms, promises and assertions turn out to be lies. 

"I've always wanted a piece from you in my collection, please get to my name on the sketch list so I can obtain my grail." -  On eBay the next day.

"Can you give me a discount on the piece because it's going in my personal collection??....." -For sale almost instantly.

"Can you make sure you get to my name on the sketch list? I am only at the show today and not coming back. I flew in just to see this artist and get this piece to present to my son/daughter/wife/father who's on their death bed/getting married/just beat cancer/fill in the blank." -He gets the commission that day. You see him at the show the next day. You check eBay the day after that and it's for sale at a healthy markup. 

It's people you may not have sold to, or people that used sob stories and false emotion to obtain a discount, or people who may not have obtained preference on a sketch list, people who had no problem lying to your face for their own person profit and gain. 

It's not about "correct value" as you're assuming the piece was unwittingly under-priced by the seller, it's about a discount obtained by lying or obtaining a valuable and desired spot on a sketch list by lying to immediately flip.

 

 

Edited by comix4fun
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5 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

 

Happens in business transactions of all kinds all over the planet and every day. People use certain terms, promises and assertions to obtain advantage in a deal they would not have received otherwise...and those terms, promises and assertions turn out to be lies. 

"I've always wanted a piece from you in my collection, please get to my name on the sketch list so I can obtain my grail." -  On eBay the next day.

"Can you give me a discount on the piece because it's going in my personal collection....." -For sale almost instantly.

"Can you make sure you get to my name on the sketch list. I am only at the show today and not coming back. I flew in just to see this artist and get this piece to present to my son/daughter/wife/father who's on their death bed/getting married/just beat cancer/fill in the blank." -He gets the commission that day. You see him at the show the next day. You check eBay the day after that and it's for sale at a healthy markup. 

It's people you may not have sold to, people who may not have obtained preference on a sketch list, people who had no problem lying to your face for their own person profit and gain. 

It's not about "correct value" as you're assuming the piece was unwittingly under-priced by the seller, it's about a discount obtained by lying or obtaining a valuable and desired spot on a sketch list by lying to immediately flip.

 

 

Well, never mind then. I've been going about this the wrong way! :-)

I guess what I meant to say is that I don't understand how people aren't factoring in shenanigans from the first time they are contacted to sell.

Edited by BCarter27
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Just now, BCarter27 said:

Well, never mind then. I've been going about this the wrong way! :-)

You should hear what comes out of people's mouths, at conventions especially. They throw the emotional book at artists to try and get what they want. 

When I managed Bolland's booths at shows over the years I'd keep accurate records of names and numbers and sketches and who got what. I was able to identify the show flippers right away (guys who attend shows to flip everything they can get their hands on) and try to guide the sketch list towards people who would appreciate the art, respect the artist, and really wanted something for themselves. This was important because most of the convention pieces were sought after and probably could sell for more than the artist was asking, intentionally, to try and make it easier for real fans to get a piece of his work. 

Only a few guys made it through my screen, but I remember almost all of them vividly. One guy, at one of the Toronto shows in 2008 ( I think ) was introduced to me by a mutual friend, my gut told me he was in it for the cash but the introduction from a friend prevented me from blocking him outright. Sure enough his claims of "for me to pass down to my kids one day, I love his work, lifelong fan, can't leave without a sketch...blah blah blah"....it was on ebay in less than 24 hours.  

People do crazy stuff to tip the scales in their favor. 

 

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7 minutes ago, BCarter27 said:

Well, never mind then. I've been going about this the wrong way! :-)

I guess what I meant to say is that I don't understand how people aren't factoring in shenanigans from the first time they are contacted to sell.

When you're a good person, an honest person, someone who enjoys this hobby as something outside of general commerce and just wants to see art for art and not for commodities it will come as a shock to the system that someone would, for example; 1) fake a heart condition to prevent a seller from saying no or negotiating back too hard (true story)..or..  2) Claim that the seller had bound himself to sell the artwork by inviting the potential buyer over to see the art in person. ..or.. 3) Try to obtain pieces for 1/4-1/3 of value using a combination of "I used to own this piece" and "you should give me a discount to bring it back home" (also true story...but didn't work).

Some people are amazing liars. You'll never know until your art is gone and up on eBay at twice the price. lol 

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1 minute ago, comix4fun said:

You should hear what comes out of people's mouths, at conventions especially. They throw the emotional book at artists to try and get what they want. 

When I managed Bolland's booths at shows over the years I'd keep accurate records of names and numbers and sketches and who got what. I was able to identify the show flippers right away (guys who attend shows to flip everything they can get their hands on) and try to guide the sketch list towards people who would appreciate the art, respect the artist, and really wanted something for themselves. This was important because most of the convention pieces were sought after and probably could sell for more than the artist was asking, intentionally, to try and make it easier for real fans to get a piece of his work. 

Only a few guys made it through my screen, but I remember almost all of them vividly. One guy, at one of the Toronto shows in 2008 ( I think ) was introduced to me by a mutual friend, my gut told me he was in it for the cash but the introduction from a friend prevented me from blocking him outright. Sure enough his claims of "for me to pass down to my kids one day, I love his work, lifelong fan, can't leave without a sketch...blah blah blah"....it was on ebay in less than 24 hours.  

People do crazy stuff to tip the scales in their favor. 

 

Just to play devil's advocate for a second... and I can't believe I am typing this, but since this thread is about money... this is a form of market manipulation.

You could raise prices and build in a monetary incentive not to resell, but you choose not to. You're effectively selling privately by screening your buyers.

The real question is whether he was able to flip them. If he was, then they went to a real lifelong fan who couldn't attend, but was willing to pay the premium instead of the flight, con fee, time spent getting on sketch lists, etc. So Bolland can rest easy knowing it shakes out in the end.

 

Another thing we haven't mentioned in this thread is the "I don't really want to sell it price". It is offered right away, but far enough above market that the seller knows it isn't a reasonable price. This is the "I use ebay as CAF." approach. Every once in awhile, I get my nerve up and try to negotiate with those $50K, really $2K pieces. You meet the most interesting people that way.

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5 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

1) fake a heart condition to prevent a seller from saying no or negotiating back too hard (true story)..or..  2) Claim that the seller had bound himself to sell the artwork by inviting the potential buyer over to see the art in person. ..or.. 3) Try to obtain pieces for 1/4-1/3 of value using a combination of "I used to own this piece" and "you should give me a discount to bring it back home" (also true story...but didn't work).

Wow. Now I know how short a time I've been doing this, comparatively. I should live so long.

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6 minutes ago, BCarter27 said:

 

The real question is whether he was able to flip them. If he was, then they went to a real lifelong fan who couldn't attend, but was willing to pay the premium instead of the flight, con fee, time spent getting on sketch lists, etc. 

 

The end doesn't justify the means of lying to the person you're dealing with to obtain the piece. 

There were dozens, hundreds, of real fans in attendance at every show...most of whom would get on those lists and would treasure that piece, but a liar got one in their place (or tried to), and resold it (or would have if he would have gotten his hands on one). There was never a dearth of real fans at those shows. 

Certainly there were enough real fans wanting sketches at prices they could afford, that someone willing to play mercenary-middleman was not in any way needed. 

Edited by comix4fun
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19 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

You should hear what comes out of people's mouths, at conventions especially. They throw the emotional book at artists to try and get what they want. 

When I managed Bolland's booths at shows over the years I'd keep accurate records of names and numbers and sketches and who got what. I was able to identify the show flippers right away (guys who attend shows to flip everything they can get their hands on) and try to guide the sketch list towards people who would appreciate the art, respect the artist, and really wanted something for themselves. This was important because most of the convention pieces were sought after and probably could sell for more than the artist was asking, intentionally, to try and make it easier for real fans to get a piece of his work. 

Only a few guys made it through my screen, but I remember almost all of them vividly. One guy, at one of the Toronto shows in 2008 ( I think ) was introduced to me by a mutual friend, my gut told me he was in it for the cash but the introduction from a friend prevented me from blocking him outright. Sure enough his claims of "for me to pass down to my kids one day, I love his work, lifelong fan, can't leave without a sketch...blah blah blah"....it was on ebay in less than 24 hours.  

People do crazy stuff to tip the scales in their favor. 

 

Interesting. I love your diligence in screening the list. Invariably, someone will find a way - it's the nature of the hobby (anywhere really when it comes to money/profit) so I don't think any system will ever be perfect - all you can do is your best - kudos. 

Question - did you contact the disingenuous buyer once you found out about the flip? I'd be curious to hear some stories about how these people respond when caught. 

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7 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

The end doesn't justify the means of lying to the person you're dealing with to obtain the piece.

It certainly does not. These people are out there so you have to take it into account with every sale.

 

I remember reading (somewhere) that even Kirby learned this lesson. He did a sketch for someone pestering him and they immediately walked out to the dealer's room barking out a price... right in front of Kirby.

Edited by BCarter27
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