(attempted) Flip of the Day!
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On June 16, 2017 at 10:36 AM, SquareChaos said:

Every hobby I've ever been a part of has attached some form of social stigma to habitual flippers. People that just dabble in flippery will rarely see a reputation hit.

I just listened to a segment on NPR's Marketplace on the whiskey black market. Apparently one can buy certain premium whiskies at a store for about $100 and, according to a flipper they interviewed, one can sell sell it between $1200-$2500, usually through furtive Facebook groups since you can't sell liquor without a license. It got to a point where one frustrated retailer would sell a bottle to a customer on a "gentleman's agreement" handshake that the customer wasn't going to flip the bottle. On top of that, the retailer would make them break the seal in front of him. Geez.

A flip or not, I think 99.5 percent of the art on eBay is marked up. Even at its most innocuous, the mark-up is to cover fees to try to at least get one's money back. 

Edited by Jay Olie Espy

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On 6/16/2017 at 9:48 AM, Bobbyusc said:

I find this to be a ridiculous thread.  A lot of people, whether they will admit it or not, "flip" their stuff.  Since this is a hobby, people keep what they want by selling other things, big deal.  Ebay is full of things found at garage sales, flea markets and other venues.  Why is this any different?  Why call out the seller as if he is doing any thing unethical or not completely common place.  If it were my listing, I surely wouldn't want such negative attention, especially if I'm just trying to feed my family or fund my hobby.........

feed my family! please, cry me a river.  I have no problem whatsoever calling out egregious flipping, especially for ridiculous mark-ups.  It's mostly more the the benefit of others so that they don't get taken in by it.  If a $500 page won in an open auction, not a flea market find, or otherwise tucked away is suddenly $2500 mere weeks later, it's fair game for comment, if not outright ridicule.  I've sold and traded art with people over the years, and I've actively avoided dealing with certain people that I know to be flippers, especially if they try to haggle with me and give me some sob story about how much they are a fan of the page, and it's their grail etc, when I know full well they intend to flip it for more immediately.  And if some guys what to trade with me and values his art at his marked up price, not what the recent sale price was in HA or Clink, good luck with that. Don't waste my time.

on the flip side (pun intended) I've had collectors let me know they were going to sell or trade something they got from me ( years after the fact) in case I wanted it back, or had any issue with them doing so. That shows some class. Those are the guys I like to deal with.  I've made deals that were probably not to my personal advantage where I knew the other party genuinely wanted a particular piece of art, and I'm fine with that.  But when you have guys bidding up decent pages in HA and Clink only to flip them for ridiculous mark-up's before they even have them in hand, yeah, I'm gonna call it out. Its bad for the hobby in the long run.  

:sumo:

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2 hours ago, MYNAMEISLEGION said:

I've sold and traded art with people over the years, and I've actively avoided dealing with certain people that I know to be flippers, especially if they try to haggle with me and give me some sob story about how much they are a fan of the page, and it's their grail etc, when I know full well they intend to flip it for more immediately.

Yep. And I can give you at least one example of how it's bad for the hobby.

Late last year, I contacted someone through CAF on a page I was interested in. The owner didn't mince any words - he basically had his guard up over people (and named several dealers who are either active on these boards or are mentioned) who have been disingenuous about their intentions to buy art from this individual in the past, and didn't want to sell it to a "flipper." Having been my first encounter with this individual (and he is a reputable person), all I could do is provide references to him of people I dealt with, assure him that the piece was going into my collection (not some bs excuse to wriggle it free) and that I would not be selling it. Luckily he instantly recognized some of the names I provided. I should also mention that the initial discussion was significantly higher a price than what I ended-up paying, and I know it had to do with easing the owners concerns that I wasn't some lying sociopath with a flipping disorder, so anyone that thinks "flipping" activity doesn't unnecessarily complicate things for collectors and doesn't come with greater costs to all of us is deluded.

Edited by comicwiz

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On 13.6.2017 at 7:42 PM, comix4fun said:

And I always wonder why this piece is inked !

All Bagley cover were pencils only, so to me this was altered and should be worth less. In my opinion. 

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1 hour ago, wurstisart said:

And I always wonder why this piece is inked !

All Bagley cover were pencils only, so to me this was altered and should be worth less. In my opinion. 

That was one of the reasons I passed on it entirely. 

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4 hours ago, comicwiz said:

Yep. And I can give you at least one example of how it's bad for the hobby.

Late last year, I contacted someone through CAF on a page I was interested in. The owner didn't mince any words - he basically had his guard up over people (and named several dealers who are either active on these boards or are mentioned) who have been disingenuous about their intentions to buy art from this individual in the past, and didn't want to sell it to a "flipper." Having been my first encounter with this individual (and he is a reputable person), all I could do is provide references to him of people I dealt with, assure him that the piece was going into my collection (not some bs excuse to wriggle it free) and that I would not be selling it. Luckily he instantly recognized some of the names I provided. I should also mention that the initial discussion was significantly higher a price than what I ended-up paying, and I know it had to do with easing the owners concerns that I wasn't some lying sociopath with a flipping disorder, so anyone that thinks "flipping" activity doesn't unnecessarily complicate things for collectors and doesn't come with greater costs to all of us is deluded.

Amen brother! :golfclap:

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Here's the most annoying to me personally:

 

Avengers Infinity Gauntlet #2 Cover (Inks only, no pencils) by Lim/Florea

 

ComicLink Sep? 2015 $1,200 Full disclosure, no pencils

Pedigree Oct 2016 $5,150 no mention that it's inks only

Ebay seller collectors_comics currently $9,500 earlier, $8,500 today Buy it Now. :whatthe:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Avengers-Infinity-Gauntlet-2-MARVEL-Original-Art-Cover-by-Ron-Lim-Thanos-/381998987251?hash=item58f0e9f7f3:g:HOsAAOSwVctY5BG4

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7 minutes ago, Twanj said:

Here's the most annoying to me personally:

 

Avengers Infinity Gauntlet #2 Cover (Inks only, no pencils) by Lim/Florea

 

ComicLink Sep? 2015 $1,200 Full disclosure, no pencils

Pedigree Oct 2016 $5,150 no mention that it's inks only

Ebay seller collectors_comics currently $9,500 earlier, $8,500 today Buy it Now. :whatthe:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Avengers-Infinity-Gauntlet-2-MARVEL-Original-Art-Cover-by-Ron-Lim-Thanos-/381998987251?hash=item58f0e9f7f3:g:HOsAAOSwVctY5BG4

Someone should let the seller know that he's mis-attributed the credit on that cover. Given the dollars potential involved selling something as created by an artist when it was not could turn into a very sticky situation. 

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1 hour ago, comix4fun said:

Someone should let the seller know that he's mis-attributed the credit on that cover. Given the dollars potential involved selling something as created by an artist when it was not could turn into a very sticky situation. 

I did. The eBay seller changed the listing to "Ink over blue lines on Marvel Bristol board!"

 

but he he already paid thousands more than it's worth. It's too late. 

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1 minute ago, Twanj said:

I did. The eBay seller changed the listing to "Ink over blue lines on Marvel Bristol board!"

 

but he he already paid thousands more than it's worth. It's too late. 

I see that now. I appreciate that you gave it a shot. However his response/edits are really, REALLY, less than what this requires. 

His title lists Ron Lim.

His sub-title lists Ron Lim, 

His description reads as follows:

Quote

A Beautiful cover by Ron Lim and Sandu Florea - signed by both! This atmospheric and striking cover by Ron Lim is a real showcase for his artistic prowess! Incredible image of Thanos crushing Hulk, Spider-Man, Ms. Marvel, Dr. Doom, Wolverine and The Avengers! Logo and trade dress are a photostat on an acetate overlay! Ink over blue lines on Marvel Bristol board! The image area is 11.5” x 17.5". Beautiful Cover!

 

That's not enough. Frankly, it's not even close. 

He mentions Ron Lim four straight times between the titles and description and never mentions that the piece he's selling is all Florea beyond "ink over blue lines". 

 

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8 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

I see that now. I appreciate that you gave it a shot. However his response/edits are really, REALLY, less than what this requires. 

His title lists Ron Lim.

His sub-title lists Ron Lim, 

His description reads as follows:

That's not enough. Frankly, it's not even close. 

He mentions Ron Lim four straight times between the titles and description and never mentions that the piece he's selling is all Florea beyond "ink over blue lines". 

 

collectors_comics is clearly a subsidiary of coollines

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1 hour ago, comix4fun said:

I see that now. I appreciate that you gave it a shot. However his response/edits are really, REALLY, less than what this requires. 

His title lists Ron Lim.

His sub-title lists Ron Lim, 

His description reads as follows:

Quote

A Beautiful cover by Ron Lim and Sandu Florea - signed by both! This atmospheric and striking cover by Ron Lim is a real showcase for his artistic prowess! Incredible image of Thanos crushing Hulk, Spider-Man, Ms. Marvel, Dr. Doom, Wolverine and The Avengers! Logo and trade dress are a photostat on an acetate overlay! Ink over blue lines on Marvel Bristol board! The image area is 11.5” x 17.5". Beautiful Cover!

Quote

That's not enough. Frankly, it's not even close. 

He mentions Ron Lim four straight times between the titles and description and never mentions that the piece he's selling is all Florea beyond "ink over blue lines". 

 

The more I read that edited description the more annoyed I get. That one line "inks over blue lines" does almost nothing, in the face of the rest of the description, to truly inform the buyer. However, it does add a layer of "but, I provided disclosure" to the seller if any potential buyer discovers that Lim never touched this piece beyond laying a signature down on it. 

It's a self-serving non-disclosure/disclosure to me. 

 

Edited by comix4fun

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1 hour ago, comix4fun said:

The more I read that edited description the more annoyed I get. That one line "inks over blue lines" does almost nothing, in the face of the rest of the description, to truly inform the buyer. However, it does add a layer of "but, I provided disclosure" to the seller if any potential buyer discovers that Lim never touched this piece beyond laying a signature down on it. 

It's a self-serving non-disclosure/disclosure to me. 

 

I agree that this is the bare minimum. Someone new to the hobby won't understand at all.

I bought a page that is inks over blue lines without disclosure. it's a pretty big bummer.

I can't imagine if I paid $5k for a cover, then tried to flip it for $8-10k. absolutely heartbreaking.

Frankly, it's put me off buying more modern pages. I'm just always a bit suspicious. It sucks.

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Simonson X-Factor page sold on eBay for $965 on March 19 this year.

Was then consigned to HA and sold in the May auction for $1,673 (inclusive of the BP).

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11 hours ago, rotembk said:

Simonson X-Factor page sold on eBay for $965 on March 19 this year.

Was then consigned to HA and sold in the May auction for $1,673 (inclusive of the BP).

That's a good and legit flip in my eyes. From one no reserve auction to another (assuming there were no shill bids when it was moved to HA). Good on the buyer to pick up something they thought was undervalued on eBay and take a chance and consign without a reserve on HA with the associated fees. It's not like they won it then quickly re-listed it somewhere else with a ridiculous BIN price in multiples of what it originally sold for.

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1 hour ago, lobrac said:

That's a good and legit flip in my eyes. From one no reserve auction to another (assuming there were no shill bids when it was moved to HA). Good on the buyer to pick up something they thought was undervalued on eBay and take a chance and consign without a reserve on HA with the associated fees. It's not like they won it then quickly re-listed it somewhere else with a ridiculous BIN price in multiples of what it originally sold for.

$1673 with BP mind you. The juice really distorts peoples perceptions of price. Yeah, they only netted 1395 minus seller fees, so they netted what? barely $200.  Throw in some misc expenses for shipping the item they won, shipping to HA, and maybe some taxes and that's soon erodes to maybe $150?  In my eyes it was only marginally worth it for 15%.

Edited by MYNAMEISLEGION

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15 minutes ago, MYNAMEISLEGION said:

$1673 with BP mind you. The juice really distorts peoples perceptions of price. Yeah, they only netted 1395 minus seller fees, so they netted what? barely $200.  Throw in some misc expenses for shipping the item they won, shipping to HA, and maybe some taxes and that's soon erodes to maybe $150?  In my eyes it was only marginally worth it for 15%.

But this flipper was trying to feed their family! $200 = lots of food. :)

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7 hours ago, lobrac said:

minus the 10% fee, some shipping charges, and again, this works out to less than $200, maybe $150 to the seller/ Why bother?  

Edited by MYNAMEISLEGION

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