(attempted) Flip of the Day! 12 12

[comix4fun]

Just now, JadeGiant said:

Interesting. I love your diligence in screening the list. Invariably, someone will find a way - it's the nature of the hobby (anywhere really when it comes to money/profit) so I don't think any system will ever be perfect - all you can do is your best - kudos. 

Question - did you contact the disingenuous buyer once you found out about the flip? I'd be curious to hear some stories about how these people respond when caught. 

I only sparingly would email and let people know I know what they did. The information was valuable to me as they revealed their true intentions to me. 

Knowing, and keeping track of the people that told you one thing and then did another, is valuable when the next convention rolls around and a new sketch list is created. 

[comix4fun]

5 minutes ago, BCarter27 said:

It certainly does not. These people are out there so you have to take it into account with every sale.

 

I remember reading (somewhere) that even Kirby learned this lesson. He did a sketch for someone pestering him and they immediately walked out to the dealer's room barking out a price... right in front of Kirby.

Yikes, makes you wonder what the person appreciated more...the artist or what the artist's work would buy them. 

 

[BCarter27]

False pretenses aside again... Couldn't you argue that the successful flipper is building the artist's market up by getting buyers to stretch a bit? Then, the unsuccessful one is showing where the limit is? This is why I think they can be a good barometer.

[comix4fun]

4 minutes ago, BCarter27 said:

False pretenses aside again... Couldn't you argue that the successful flipper is building the artist's market up by getting buyers to stretch a bit? Then, the unsuccessful one is showing where the limit is? This is why I think they can be a good barometer.

With an artist with an established 40 year career and OA sales of individual pieces that have hit six-figures? 

Regardless, a statistical analysis would probably find a handful of flipped eBay sales as far too small a sample to demonstrate anything helpful to anyone other than the guy pocketing the overage for himself.  

[BCarter27]

Also, has anyone tried to head off ill-will on a resale? Have you ever reached out to the previous owner to offer it back or to explain your (legit) reason for reselling it? (upgrading, over-committed on another piece, not as cool as I hoped, got put into a trade)

[comix4fun]

4 minutes ago, BCarter27 said:

Also, has anyone tried to head off ill-will on a resale? Have you ever reached out to the previous owner to offer it back or to explain your (legit) reason for reselling it? (upgrading, over-committed on another piece, not as cool as I hoped, got put into a trade)

I've done both. When I've run into something unexpected that requires selling a piece that I've recently acquired (a year, maybe two) I've, in two different instances, offered the piece back to its owner and given reasons why I am selling and offered my reasoning and hopes that they understand it wasn't my intention upon acquisition. 

In the case where I offered the piece back I knew the previous owner was a big fan/collector of that work and didn't want the piece to slip away without it going back to him should he wanted it. 

With the other piece I knew the previous owner wasn't in a position to buy the piece back, so I let him know what I'd run into and why I was moving it and what had changed since I bought it, just so he didn't feel as if I pried it from him only to resell. 

A little courtesy and deference goes a long way. I treated them as I hoped I'd be treated. Neither took me up on the offer. Both were surprised. Both pleasantly so. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by comix4fun

[BCarter27]

1 minute ago, comix4fun said:

With an artist with an established 40 year career and OA sales of individual pieces that have hit six-figures? 

Regardless, a statistical analysis would probably find a handful of flipped eBay sales as far too small a sample to demonstrate anything helpful to anyone other than the guy pocketing the overage for himself.  

But keep in mind, we are only sampling his con sketches in this example. They have their own price range.

But yes, I think it is another data point to add to the mix, at any price point - 6-figures or less. If a Swan Superman sells once at Heritage Sunday for $450 and a second time at ebay for $600, we know it's been pretty battle-tested. It's not an $800-1000 piece. It had it's chance, twice. This Heritage Sunday there was a Kaluta/Heath resold for $700 after being offered for $2500 at a dealer after being sold for $800 initially at Heritage. So, lots of info here. This is why this thread wouldn't bother me as much if it was about successful flips, not attempted ones.

I guess the timing of a resale just doesn't bother me as much. I consider the Kaluta/Heath a flip, but it was several years between sales.

[MyNameIsLegion]

Flipping published art and flipping new sketches by a hot artist are somewhat apples and oranges but they are both fruit in that they are both unique items or limited resources. 2 people can't own the same page of art outright at the same time, and an artist can only do so many sketches in a day. Manipulating the situation to your advantage doesn't really reflect true market value. This isn't simple supply and demand of reproducible widgets. Whether it's flipping art before you even have it in hand, creating a sob story to get a sketch, or pulling a Donnely to create new stats to call a prelim or sketch an unused cover, you have altered the buyers perception of value in a way that is false. Sure, caveat emptor and all that, but for the common good of fellow collectors I'd rather have access to info than not. I won't threadcrap on someone's for sale post (if done properly which a few of you do not do, and post FS items in the this week in you collection thread)

[BCarter27]

5 minutes ago, MYNAMEISLEGION said:

I won't threadcrap on someone's for sale post

Exactly. That's what this thread is if it is calling out items that haven't sold yet.

[comix4fun]

1 minute ago, BCarter27 said:

Exactly. That's what this thread is if it is calling out items that haven't sold yet.

Well, for it to be a "threadcrap" it's got to be a "" in their "thread"...meaning directly. 

This is a "CrapAbout" or "CrapAround". It's people on an entirely different thread and, really, a different site discussing the selling and trading habits of others that could be deemed something along the spectrum between short-attention-spanned (charitable)  to nefarious manipulation of artwork to create an uncorroborated claim that the art is more than it is. (naughty). 

"Threadcrap™" is a specific term of art. 

[batman_fan]

1 hour ago, BCarter27 said:

It certainly does not. These people are out there so you have to take it into account with every sale.

 

I remember reading (somewhere) that even Kirby learned this lesson. He did a sketch for someone pestering him and they immediately walked out to the dealer's room barking out a price... right in front of Kirby.

Back in the early 90s I knew a New Mexico comic shop owner who ran into Kirby at San Diego Con when he had an FF1 with him. He asked Kirby if he would sign it but Kirby politely declined. The dealer was pissed because he could have sold the book for more money with Kirby's signature. 

[MyNameIsLegion]

29 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

Well, for it to be a "threadcrap" it's got to be a "" in their "thread"...meaning directly. 

This is a "CrapAbout" or "CrapAround". It's people on an entirely different thread and, really, a different site discussing the selling and trading habits of others that could be deemed something along the spectrum between short-attention-spanned (charitable)  to nefarious manipulation of artwork to create an uncorroborated claim that the art is more than it is. (naughty). 

"Threadcrap™" is a specific term of art. 

Precisely Chris- many of the OA CGC posters are not as familiar with the rules and rituals of the CGC boards. As to the specific objection to calling out a recent sale of a current FS item, how in any way is that harmful? The seller may not like it, but the potential buyer may be inclined to negotiate a different price knowing what margin the seller is attempting to extract from the buyer. I have no allegiance or obligation to the seller to not publicly disclose information that may be useful.  A market that isn't transparent, that is skewed toward one party over the other is never good.

[comix4fun]

7 minutes ago, batman_fan said:

Back in the early 90s I knew a New Mexico comic shop owner who ran into Kirby at San Diego Con when he had an FF1 with him. He asked Kirby if he would sign it but Kirby politely declined. The dealer was pissed because he could have sold the book for more money with Kirby's signature. 

Doesn't surprise me that Kirby wasn't signing in the early 90's. My all accounts his hand wasn't very steady in those last few years before he passed. The last thing he wanted to do was put that on display in public. 

[BCarter27]

4 minutes ago, MYNAMEISLEGION said:

Precisely Chris- many of the OA CGC posters are not as familiar with the rules and rituals of the CGC boards. As to the specific objection to calling out a recent sale of a current FS item, how in any way is that harmful? The seller may not like it, but the potential buyer may be inclined to negotiate a different price knowing what margin the seller is attempting to extract from the buyer. I have no allegiance or obligation to the seller to not publicly disclose information that may be useful.  A market that isn't transparent, that is skewed toward one party over the other is never good.

How do you sort the good from the bad? As has been pointed out, not every flip is nefarious. Is everyone going to have to come on here to defend their reasons for selling? This thread creates a guilty until proven innocent mentality and is very negative press for a seller.

The buyers who are doing their proper market research on a piece before buying will know what's going on without a public shaming here. Nobody is going to come here and read this whole thread looking for flips before they pull the trigger. They are going to check HA and ebay results, old CAF listings, comps, ask their friends via PM, etc.

[MyNameIsLegion]

So far this thread has been more about debating the definition of flipping than examples of flipping. As most of the OA community is here, friends, enemies and otherwise. Having a public discourse leaves the judgement to the reader. The fear of negative perception to a seller as a reason not to call out potential bad actors, much less known bad actors is specious reasoning. Similar conversations have been on the comicart-l when some simply asked if an auction looked fishy or a piece of art looked fake and my god there's always one or 2 guys who go ape over the mere asking of the question because it could "hurt the seller" Jesus, I'm tired of coddling these precious snowflake sellers! Who knew they were soooo fragile? 

That said,I do see your point, and I think any collecting community or forum is self- regulating and if someone is unduly accused of something the group will make that known very quickly. 

For example, Lee, who started this thread contacted me about a page he bought from me that he was going to sell years after he bought it to see if I wanted it back or anything. I had offered it for sale with no strings and he still went out of his way to do that. He's the very opposite of the type of flipper discussed here.

 

[Lee B.]

On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 6:48 PM, MYNAMEISLEGION said:

So far this thread has been more about debating the definition of flipping than examples of flipping. As most of the OA community is here, friends, enemies and otherwise. Having a public discourse leaves the judgement to the reader. The fear of negative perception to a seller as a reason not to call out potential bad actors, much less known bad actors is specious reasoning. Similar conversations have been on the comicart-l when some simply asked if an auction looked fishy or a piece of art looked fake and my god there's always one or 2 guys who go ape over the mere asking of the question because it could "hurt the seller" Jesus, I'm tired of coddling these precious snowflake sellers! Who knew they were soooo fragile? 

That said,I do see your point, and I think any collecting community or forum is self- regulating and if someone is unduly accused of something the group will make that known very quickly. 

For example, Lee, who started this thread contacted me about a page he bought from me that he was going to sell years after he bought it to see if I wanted it back or anything. I had offered it for sale with no strings and he still went out of his way to do that. He's the very opposite of the type of flipper discussed here.

 

Thanks for the kind words Sean!  I appreciate the thoughtful and respectful debate that has occurred in this thread. 

I think if a "flipper" posted a recently acquired piece on eBay with a low opening bid and no reserve, then the flip would not be as galling to some, assuming that there was no shilling going on to create hidden reserves.  When a flipper assigns a price that is multiples of what it sold for quite recently, I find myself agreeing with folks who believe this behavior does not enhance the hobby. 

There are less obvious and obnoxious ways to flip art, for example, assigning a more reasonable price (e.g., 20% mark-up) to a truly "under-the-radar" piece that still allows you some profit, and offering the piece privately to a collector who has that kind of art on his or her want list.  Best, Lee

[lobrac]

Tim Bradstreet Punisher #30 cover, sold on eBay on Aug. 9 for $854:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Punisher-30-2006-Marvel-Max-Original-Art-Published-Cover-by-Tim-Bradstreet-/152648272035?rmvSB=true&nma=true&si=2uOR%2FNN6u%2FazXo4ky32ENeJso0A%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Now available for $1100:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=1414694&GSub=171439

[Panelfan1]

11 hours ago, lobrac said:

Tim Bradstreet Punisher #30 cover, sold on eBay on Aug. 9 for $854:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Punisher-30-2006-Marvel-Max-Original-Art-Published-Cover-by-Tim-Bradstreet-/152648272035?rmvSB=true&nma=true&si=2uOR%2FNN6u%2FazXo4ky32ENeJso0A%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Now available for $1100:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=1414694&GSub=171439

After fees and shipping costs at HA.. etc, looks less like a money making situation than a change of heart.

[Claudio]

On ‎8‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 4:28 PM, Panelfan1 said:

wow. is this a fast turn over or what? can't even imagine the art has been shipped to the new owner already? unless Erik E is MMM?

just ended on ebay by Make Mine Marvel $1500.75 aug 3rd

ebay

and now on CAF $1750 aug 5th.

erik e on caf

 

Definitely not the first time it happened between these two.

[lobrac]

Sold on eBay on Aug. 10 for $595

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GENE-COLAN-TOM-PALMER-ORIGINAL-ART-TOMB-OF-DRACULA-21-ACTION-PAGE-1972-/232436986650?rmvSB=true&ul_noapp=true&ul_ref=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F711-53200-19255-0%2F1%3Fcampid%3D5335806955%26toolid%3D10001%26customid%3DCAFMarketData%26mpre%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D232436986650%26srcrot%3D711-53200-19255-0%26rvr_id%3D1287536334691&nma=true&si=P0Ux18fRWKItf%2F%2FJe8WcIuXMsgU%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Now on CAF "considering offers"

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=1415976&GSub=171439

I don't think Erik E is MMM or in cahoots with him. Erik just lists a lot of art pages for sale (maybe) very quickly after winning them in various auctions.