Discussed but been a while: Existing #s of mega keys 1 1

[ender]

2 hours ago, bluechip said:

I don't understand the logic being employed by people who say that hit movies expanding a character's awareness to billions of people are not a contributing factor in the value of something that's valued over a million dollars.    What else, then?   There must be something factoring into that value because the value is there.   So, if the movies that make the character beloved and widely known have no impact, what does?    The comic books themselves, read by hundreds of thousands?  The old TV show seen my millions?    How could a person believe those things would have an impact but that films known by billions would not?  

I think it can certainly factor in to a singular sale or even multiple sales.  All you need is one motivated buyer.  I think the issues is more complicated when one looks at weekly comic sales that seem to spike at a movie release and then very quickly subside.  I think there are movie fans and comic fans and just because someone likes the movies they may not buy the comics.  I teach a class that uses graphic novels and every semester I will have multiple students say they are "comic book fans" and I ask them which titles they read on a regular bases and the most common answer is "oh, I just watch the movies."  Having said that I would go back to where I started it only takes two people to make the value of a book go up.  They just have to be motivated and have the funds.  And if you bought the Berk More Fun 54 at auction....I'm talking to you! 

[bluechip]

45 minutes ago, ender said:

I think it can certainly factor in to a singular sale or even multiple sales.  All you need is one motivated buyer.  I think the issues is more complicated when one looks at weekly comic sales that seem to spike at a movie release and then very quickly subside.  I think there are movie fans and comic fans and just because someone likes the movies they may not buy the comics.  I teach a class that uses graphic novels and every semester I will have multiple students say they are "comic book fans" and I ask them which titles they read on a regular bases and the most common answer is "oh, I just watch the movies."  Having said that I would go back to where I started it only takes two people to make the value of a book go up.  They just have to be motivated and have the funds.  And if you bought the Berk More Fun 54 at auction....I'm talking to you! 

The split between movie success and added sales of the original material is not a new phenomenon.  Lots of people love vampire movies and have never read "Dracula."   And what about the people who have read "Dracula" but don't read every vampire book?   Many superhero fans have read no comics, while many have also read them in the past but no longer do.  Or they've read just a few.   Some watch the movies without ever buying the toys or wearing the underoos.  And most will do all the above without ever spending, big money on vintage comics.   But the success of a character raises the number of people in all of those categories.    And that seems to me so obvious that I find it odd whenever somebody sees the world so thoroughly and exclusively through their own eyes, as comic collectors first and foremost, that they think worldwide exploitation of a character somehow isn't really a factor in the price of vintage comics.   It makes as much sense as saying that toy sales are not related, either.

[ComicConnoisseur]

3 hours ago, bluechip said:

I don't understand the logic being employed by people who say that hit movies expanding a character's awareness to billions of people are not a contributing factor in the value of something that's valued over a million dollars.    What else, then?   There must be something factoring into that value because the value is there.   So, if the movies that make the character beloved and widely known have no impact, what does?    The comic books themselves, read by hundreds of thousands?  The old TV show seen my millions?    How could a person believe those things would have an impact but that films known by billions would not?  

100 percent agree with you!

The perfect case is Superman and Batman as they have been big on TV and movies since the beginning.Superman with the radio show, Fleischer Superman cartoon,and George Reeves Superman tv show,while Batman had the serials, and Adam West Batman.

So during the 1940s to 1960s Superman and Batman had more Hollywood exposure than any other comic book characters. This probably had a lot to do with thier great breakout popularity over other comic heroes.

In other words even back then Hollywood had its hand in popularity of characters.

Imagine if there was a Sub-Mariner tv show in the 50s? Maybe, he be thought of as much bigger than he is now?

[sfcityduck]

Completely agree with Bluechip.  Many folks think it would be super cool to own Action 1 or D27 who are not comic collectors.  Why?  Because they are pop culture icons.  The bragging rights for owning such a significant book is obvious to all.

What shocks me more than the notion that movies impact comic values is the notion that someone would $200K+ for a comic with no pop culture significance at all.  Yet comic collectors have done it.  Why?  Because of the perceived coolness in the narrow segment of folks who run in that circle.  It's buying a bragging right aimed at a very very narrow audience. 

[ender]

12 minutes ago, bluechip said:

The split between movie success and added sales of the original material is not a new phenomenon.  Lots of people love vampire movies and have never read "Dracula."   And what about the people who have read "Dracula" but don't read every vampire book?   Many superhero fans have read no comics, while many have also read them in the past but no longer do.  Or they've read just a few.   Some watch the movies without ever buying the toys or wearing the underoos.  And most will do all the above without ever spending, big money on vintage comics.   But the success of a character raises the number of people in all of those categories.    And that seems to me so obvious that I find it odd whenever somebody sees the world so thoroughly and exclusively through their own eyes, as comic collectors first and foremost, that they think worldwide exploitation of a character somehow isn't really a factor in the price of vintage comics.   It makes as much sense as saying that toy sales are not related, either.

I would agree with you as there are many who only like the movies but the chance of a person spending big money on a GA comic who says, I have never seen any movies or played with any toys regarding the character seems slim at best

[ender]

4 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Completely agree with Bluechip.  Many folks think it would be super cool to own Action 1 or D27 who are not comic collectors.  Why?  Because they are pop culture icons.  The bragging rights for owning such a significant book is obvious to all.

What shocks me more than the notion that movies impact comic values is the notion that someone would $200K+ for a comic with no pop culture significance at all.  Yet comic collectors have done it.  Why?  Because of the perceived coolness in the narrow segment of folks who run in that circle.  It's buying a bragging right aimed at a very very narrow audience. 

Really interesting and I have never really thought of it in that way

[Chicago Boy]

Curious as to people's opinions on what constitutes/ is an example of  a "mega -key" besides the Action 1 & Tec 27 mentioned here already

[bluechip]

14 minutes ago, ender said:

I would agree with you as there are many who only like the movies but the chance of a person spending big money on a GA comic who says, I have never seen any movies or played with any toys regarding the character seems slim at best

Yeah, that number would be small.   It would have to be the kind of person who has obscene wealth and buys things that are valued by others and it's all about the numbers.   There are people like that, but not as many as one might think, outside of the cliched movie character billionaire.   Usually there is some connected to nostalgia (or nostalgia for someone they love) in addition to the one-upmanship.

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by bluechip

[Knightsofold]

56 minutes ago, Chicago Boy said:

Curious as to people's opinions on what constitutes/ is an example of  a "mega -key" besides the Action 1 & Tec 27 mentioned here already

Any book with an entry level of at least $5k?

 

[Pickie]

6 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

Because they are pop culture icons.  The bragging rights for owning such a significant book is obvious to all.

I think mostly the former. Not so much the bragging (bragging may happen, but, oh well ...). Mega-keys are icons.

They are the best "representatives" for all of that what's connected to the theme/topic up to today.

And IMHO collectors like to have the "written proof" in their hands of what that all came from first (-> first appearances etc.).

[Mmehdy]

6 hours ago, Chicago Boy said:

Curious as to people's opinions on what constitutes/ is an example of  a "mega -key" besides the Action 1 & Tec 27 mentioned here already

CAP 1- most undervalued key...

[Pickie]

And you would need a skillful and appealing cover for a true "icon". The right proportion of action on it. Not too simple and not too overlaoded.

For example, I would have difficulties in determining a "Mickey Mouse"/"Donald Duck" mega-key although there's no doubt in the importance of the Disney empire up to today.

[thehumantorch]

8 hours ago, bluechip said:

The split between movie success and added sales of the original material is not a new phenomenon.  Lots of people love vampire movies and have never read "Dracula."   And what about the people who have read "Dracula" but don't read every vampire book?   Many superhero fans have read no comics, while many have also read them in the past but no longer do.  Or they've read just a few.   Some watch the movies without ever buying the toys or wearing the underoos.  And most will do all the above without ever spending, big money on vintage comics.   But the success of a character raises the number of people in all of those categories.    And that seems to me so obvious that I find it odd whenever somebody sees the world so thoroughly and exclusively through their own eyes, as comic collectors first and foremost, that they think worldwide exploitation of a character somehow isn't really a factor in the price of vintage comics.   It makes as much sense as saying that toy sales are not related, either.

Agreed.  Media does indeed have a effect on comic sales.  Right now everyone is looking for Amazing Spider-man 361 and 300 because of the upcoming Venom movie.  There's even a thread complaining about Metropolis Comics selling all their copies of 361.  And you see the effect in a lot of other areas besides comic characters.  If a US athlete wins an Olympic gold in gymnastics you can bet there's an influx of children enrolling in the sport.

[rjpb]

16 hours ago, Chicago Boy said:

Curious as to people's opinions on what constitutes/ is an example of  a "mega -key" besides the Action 1 & Tec 27 mentioned here already

I'd say the definition is a book in which the importance can be explained and recognized by a simple declarative sentence that someone with no real appreciation of comic books can understand.

The first appearance of (universally recognized character)

The first issue of (universally recognized character)

I would add Marvel Comics #1 - as while The Human Torch and Sub-Mariner don't mean that much to non-fans, "The first Marvel comic" would be understood as significant.

It helps if the character in question appears on the cover. 

 

 

 

[N e r V]

17 hours ago, Chicago Boy said:

Curious as to people's opinions on what constitutes/ is an example of  a "mega -key" besides the Action 1 & Tec 27 mentioned here already

I think there was a time where maybe just those two and say Marvel comics #1 formed a holy trinity of what was a mega key in GA. The rest were important too but probably just regular keys in GA. First Superman, Batman and Marvel comic seemed to tower above the rest. 

It's not that those books don't still tower at some level but as prices on books have started going into orbit there seem to be (to me at least) a few more members into that club. Cap #1 and Whiz #2 don't exactly bring ho-hum sales in cash these days. And non traditional keys (don't know how else to say that) like Suspense Comics  #3 and Fantastic Comics #3 due to their rarity and new levels in the market might also now be a mega key.

If I had to place numbers on how I view books today it would be any book that could obtain six figures (or close to it) in its highest grade is a mega key. To those few hitting 7 figures it might be time to start calling those the super mega keys. Seven figures is currently the rarified territory in comics. 

Its just hard for me to put books like  Suspense #3, Fantastic #3, Cap #1, etc. in the same boat with another book that is also clearly a key but at the $5000.00 level.

I think you could open up a whole new debate too with what current collectors consider a key. A lot of them still think the word key can only be attached to superhero or character comics with origin or first appearances and others are fine using it for classic comics or covers (Suspense #3, Fantastic #3, Punch #12, Captain America WT #74, etc.).

 

 

Edited June 23, 2017 by N e r V

[PopKulture]

13 minutes ago, N e r V said:

I think there was a time where maybe just those two and say Marvel comics #1 formed a holy trinity of what was a mega key in GA. The rest were important too but probably just regular keys in GA. First Superman, Batman and Marvel comic seemed to tower above the rest. 

It's not that those books don't still tower at some level but as prices on books have started going into orbit there seem to be (to me at least) a few more members into that club. Cap #1 and Whiz #2 don't exactly bring ho-hum sales in cash these days. And non traditional keys (don't know how else to say that) like Suspense Comics  #3 and Fantastic Comics #3 due to their rarity and new levels in the market might also now be a mega key.

If I had to place numbers on how I view books today it would be any book that could obtain six figures (or close to it) in its highest grade is a mega key. To those few hitting 7 figures it might be time to start calling those the super mega keys. Seven figures is currently the rarified territory in comics. 

Its just hard for me to put books like  Suspense #3, Fantastic #3, Cap #1, etc. in the same boat with another book that is also clearly a key but at the $5000.00 level.

I think you could open up a whole new debate too with what current collectors consider a key. A lot of them still think the word key can only be attached to superhero or character comics with origin or first appearances and others are fine using it for classic comics or covers (Suspense #3, Fantastic #3, Punch #12, Captain America WT #74, etc.).

 

 

Good insights. The "trinity" is firmly ensconced, but I think Superman 1 and Cap 1 are close, but so were AA 16 and Detective 1 not so long ago. And once upon a time, even Motion Picture Funnies Weekly was nipping at their heels. The thing about the trinity is that they ruled back in the day even when the newspaper strip books were red hot like Single Series and the Feature books (Single Series Tarzan anyone?).

With books like Fantastic 3 and Suspense 3, a lot of people are chasing the cover. It's a matter of debate if a key and a classic cover are the same thing - sometimes they coincide, it seems. One shift I've noticed is that the new classic covers owe more to skulls than flags: it appears that the macabre has surged ahead of the patriotic. Books like Superman 14 and anything by Raboy with a flag or eagle, etc. once led the pack as far as classic cover kings. Me? I love all of them!

[circumstances]

18 hours ago, Chicago Boy said:

Curious as to people's opinions on what constitutes/ is an example of  a "mega -key" besides the Action 1 & Tec 27 mentioned here already

Besides Action 1 and Tec 27, if it's one of my key books, it's a "mega-key." Simple

[N e r V]

CGC (and others) have tried to clarify the term Key:

KEY ISSUE. An important issue in a comic book title's run.

But like a lot of things here people like to form their own (many times outside) opinions.

I say why can't a Superman #14 live in peace with a Punch #12?

Mega Key is open to interpretation currently since it's not an official term. It's kind of like what's expensive to one person may not be to another.

[sfcityduck]

The term "key" issue is so over-used it is almost meaningless.  When used as a verb, the term "key" means "the crucial factor in achieving."  Historically, the term key was used to point to a singular item, like the key stone of an arch without which the arch would collapse.  The "key" to a run used to mean the hardest and most important issue to obtain.  

But, as is usual in the comic book business, where the scholarly usage often gives way to a usage designed to maximize sales hype, the term has been eroded to mean just "a desirable issue."  Over and over again I'm a bit amazed and dismayed at how dealers and collectors succumb to hype.  "Keys" and "prototypes" being the most obvious examples.

Used correctly, the best analogy, I think, is to the term "crux."  The "crux" of an argument is the most important point at issue.  The crux of a rock climb is the most difficult portion of the climb.

 

Edited June 23, 2017 by sfcityduck

[N e r V]

Comic fans and collectors were always applying it in their own terms going back several decades ago. It never was matched up correctly as we use the word in English exactly but I always understood what and why comics used it as they did.

Times change and the market changed with it so we either go with the flow or we stay behind annoyed at the changes.