File Copies In General 0

[szav]

Hi ... just had some questions about GA file copies in general and was hoping some of you old timers ...err wise veterans of the board ...might help educate a newbie.  As with my previous academic questions, if anyone wants to chime in or link me to previous threads on the subject I'd greatly appreciate it.

I've seen Harvey, Dell, and of course lots of Gaines file copies and I just had a couple assumptions about them, please correct me where I'm wrong.  Some of these seem pretty obvious so I'm just stating them so you don't have to repeat it to me.

a) these were essentially copies kept locked on hand by the publishers or their employees for years for business/legal/personal reasons.  It would seem most publishers would have kept file copies of their copyrighted material.

b) at some point these were sold/given/put up for auction to private collectors when these companies went out of business or when higher ups in the companies like Gaines decided to cash in on them/make them public? honestly not sure what his particular story was...saw in the EC fanatics thread there might be 12 of each book or something, I haven't had time to fully explore that thread.

c) file copies are identifiable by some sort of company stamp on the books? or pedigree paperwork?

My general questions are:

1) what other GA publishing companies' File copies are now in the hands of private collectors?

2) did most of this happen prior to encapsulation, and its safe to assume most of these are in unslabbed collections?

3) Is there any sort of accessible database on how many file copies there are for particular books?  In general was it even known to the public when these were released? or was there a slow trickle of file copies that came out over the years as company employees who may have copies as keepsakes slowly sold them...meaning it may not be easily determined how many are out there for particular issues?

4) It seems logical to assume Marvel and DC would have a lotta file copies....  Is there any direct evidence of existence or stories about what these companies might be hiding away?  Would sure suck for all the people paying 500k for AF 15 9.2's if one day 5...10...100 or more 9.8s showed up all the sudden one day.

Appreciate and look forward to your responses. 

Edited June 24, 2017 by szavisca
because

[AJD]

I've got quite a few Dell file copies. Some of them have the editorial department stamp on them, like this one:

 

 

And others don't. I don't know how GCG decided this was a file copy. I've cracked it out, and there are no marks inside:

[szav]

Guess to be a little more clear, I'm also looking to see if there's a particular story, for each of these publishers, exactly how their particular file copies went public.  In particular Dell and Harvey.

[thehumantorch]

28 minutes ago, szavisca said:

Guess to be a little more clear, I'm also looking to see if there's a particular story, for each of these publishers, exactly how their particular file copies went public.  In particular Dell and Harvey.

Heritage Auctions has had a series of file copies go through their Sunday night auctions for years.  Here's a link to their archived results sorted newest to oldest.  If you start at around March of this year and work your way back in time you'll find a lot of group auctions of high grade publisher copies.  Lots of Dells and Harvey.  I'd guess publishers picked Heritage to auction this stuff off but they could have gone from the publisher to a dealer and then on to Heritage.

https://www.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?No=72&Nty=1&Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&Ns=Time|1&N=790+231&Ntt=file+copies

 

[AJD]

1 hour ago, szavisca said:

Guess to be a little more clear, I'm also looking to see if there's a particular story, for each of these publishers, exactly how their particular file copies went public.  In particular Dell and Harvey.

I have no idea why they became public. There were at least two kinds of Dell file copies - the ones the editorial department kept (for whatever reason). But George Dellacort (hence 'Dell') had personal file copies, bound into handsome hardcover volumes. I guess they entered the market after his passing.

[szav]

8 hours ago, thehumantorch said:

Heritage Auctions has had a series of file copies go through their Sunday night auctions for years.  Here's a link to their archived results sorted newest to oldest.  If you start at around March of this year and work your way back in time you'll find a lot of group auctions of high grade publisher copies.  Lots of Dells and Harvey.  I'd guess publishers picked Heritage to auction this stuff off but they could have gone from the publisher to a dealer and then on to Heritage.

https://www.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?No=72&Nty=1&Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&Ns=Time|1&N=790+231&Ntt=file+copies

 

That helps largely answer question #3 thanks!  Dunno why I hadn't thought to search "file copy" on heritage, their database and search function is really nice...I'd mostly just been searching by comic name and number.   Hard to look through much of the 50,000 plus entries but it didn't take long to see that there'd even be 15+ file copies of individual Harvey comics.  I still wonder how it is all these ended up on Heritage and how many are still in the hands of the publisher or dealers/collectors just waiting for the day.  Kinda makes one nervous thinking about investing any money in any of these titles thinking one day more high grade copies of any of them could suddenly surface.

[Yorick]

I have several "Harvey File Copy" books, but not high grade at all.  They bear a stapled "book-mark" to the cover that indicates the filing location and genres.  It seems to me that they were used for reference material for the staff artists and writers.  Most of the ones I have were not even published by Harvey.

[catman76]

I remember seeing a video from the 70s or 80s of a tour through DC's offices and they showed the room where they keep all the comics they ever published, but they are all bound. The guy was flipping through bound copies of detective comics showing #1 and ones with Action comics and all that, all bound into books on shelves.

About 20 years ago I bought a bunch of personal file copies of Frank Carin, who did a lot of funny animal comics for Avon in the 50's and also some Charlton file copies of Atomic Mouse and stuff. I forget where I even got them from or how they got out and don't know really even if they are actual file copies, though they all were pristine and obviously never have been touched hardly so they probably were.

[Sqeggs]

15 hours ago, AJD said:

I've got quite a few Dell file copies. Some of them have the editorial department stamp on them, like this one:

 

 

And others don't. I don't know how GCG decided this was a file copy. I've cracked it out, and there are no marks inside:

Unfortunately, we seem to be stuck with two types of books both being labeled "file copies."  To my mind, the top book is a true file copy in the sense of a book kept in an editorial department file to be used for reference.  The bottom book is an example, I think, of the second type of "file copy":  a book that was unsold that the publisher kept around, possibly in a warehouse.  Those types of books aren't really "file copies" in the everyday sense of the term.

Heritage has sold Harvey "file copies" that are still tied together in bundles with paper wrappers.  Obviously, those copies were never in anyone's files.  To call them file copies is to say that the whole of the Mile High II collection was made up of file copies.

In other words, I wish CGC had drawn a distinction between true file copies and unsold publisher's copies (or unsold warehouse copies that may or may not have been held by the publisher).  Granted doing so would be difficult, and might require that only books with stamps like the first book here would get the file copy designation.  My two cents. 

Edited June 24, 2017 by Sqeggs
Typo

[szav]

6 hours ago, catman76 said:

I remember seeing a video from the 70s or 80s of a tour through DC's offices and they showed the room where they keep all the comics they ever published, but they are all bound. The guy was flipping through bound copies of detective comics showing #1 and ones with Action comics and all that, all bound into books on shelves.

About 20 years ago I bought a bunch of personal file copies of Frank Carin, who did a lot of funny animal comics for Avon in the 50's and also some Charlton file copies of Atomic Mouse and stuff. I forget where I even got them from or how they got out and don't know really even if they are actual file copies, though they all were pristine and obviously never have been touched hardly so they probably were.

Interesting, who knows what treasures those offices still hold...even bound copies of all those would be worth a fortune. 

5 hours ago, Sqeggs said:

Unfortunately, we seem to be stuck with two types of books both being labeled "file copies."  To my mind, the top book is a true file copy in the sense of a book kept in an editorial department file to be used for reference.  The bottom book is an example, I think, of the second type of "file copy":  a book that was unsold that the publisher kept around, possibly in a warehouse.  Those types of books aren't really "file copies" in the everyday sense of the term.

Heritage has sold Harvey "file copies" that are still tied together in bundles with paper wrappers.  Obviously, those copies were never in anyone's files.  To call them file copies is to say that the whole of the Mile High II collection was made up of file copies.

In other words, I wish CGC had drawn a distinction between true file copies and unsold publisher's copies (or unsold warehouse copies that may or may not have been held by the publisher).  Granted doing so would be difficult, and might require that only books with stamps like the first book here would get the file copy designation.  My two cents. 

Yeah would be nice if there had been a distinction made but I suppose CGC/the dealers/owners of these books are happy to have the 'warehouse overstock" called "file copies" because it increases their allure.  With regards to my question 4) I still have to wonder how many 'file' or 'overstock' copies Marvel/DC and all other modern publishers have kept...particularly in the years after comic books were really gaining value as collectables.  I mean....after 1970 or so why wouldn't Marvel keep an extra 1000 copies or so of everything?  How many 9.8-10.0 New Mutants 98 could they have sitting around waiting for the day.  Doesn't seem like people care much that there are already 2,000+ 9.8s...but my suspicion on this is one of the many things that keeps me from wanting to invest in any books any more recent than 1980 or so...there's cool stuff to collect but I'm wary of paying much for any of it.

[lou_fine]

1 hour ago, szavisca said:

I mean....after 1970 or so why wouldn't Marvel keep an extra 1000 copies or so of everything?  How many 9.8-10.0 New Mutants 98 could they have sitting around waiting for the day.  Doesn't seem like people care much that there are already 2,000+ 9.8s

I believe the answer is pretty obvious here. 

If the comic book publishers kept a thousand copies of everything they published, where in the world would they store the absolute billions and billions of comic book drek and garbage that no collector in their right mind would even want to touch, let alone put into their collection.   

Edited June 25, 2017 by lou_fine

[thehumantorch]

1 hour ago, szavisca said:

Interesting, who knows what treasures those offices still hold...even bound copies of all those would be worth a fortune. 

Yeah would be nice if there had been a distinction made but I suppose CGC/the dealers/owners of these books are happy to have the 'warehouse overstock" called "file copies" because it increases their allure.  With regards to my question 4) I still have to wonder how many 'file' or 'overstock' copies Marvel/DC and all other modern publishers have kept...particularly in the years after comic books were really gaining value as collectables.  I mean....after 1970 or so why wouldn't Marvel keep an extra 1000 copies or so of everything?  How many 9.8-10.0 New Mutants 98 could they have sitting around waiting for the day.  Doesn't seem like people care much that there are already 2,000+ 9.8s...but my suspicion on this is one of the many things that keeps me from wanting to invest in any books any more recent than 1980 or so...there's cool stuff to collect but I'm wary of paying much for any of it.

Well, we're seeing a lot of file copies from the 1950s so perhaps you should buy Copper and Modern books and sell everything older than 1980.....

[szav]

10 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

I believe the answer is pretty obvious here. 

If the comic book publishers kept a thousand copies of everything they published, where in the world would they store the absolute billions and billions of comic book drek and garbage that no collector in their right mind would even want to touch, let alone put into their collection.   

Fair enough maybe not 1000 each! Maybe 10-100 each? I get it it's a matter of cost of warehousing vs possible benefit ...who knows.  If Harvey had all this high grade overstock before it was even thought to be valuable...why wouldn't Marvel or DC have the same or more.  Probably need to ask someone who worked in shipping for these companies what happens with all the excess....dunno do they recycle it all?

Edited June 25, 2017 by szavisca
because

[szav]

5 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

Well, we're seeing a lot of file copies from the 1950s so perhaps you should buy Copper and Modern books and sell everything older than 1980.....

Gonna stick with my plan of only spending my limited funds on what I think is cool and rare ... got the what I think is cool part figured out mostly, though it's constantly evolving...just trying to get a grasp of what's actually rare, hence my questioning and philosophical rambling on file copies here.

[thehumantorch]

1 minute ago, szavisca said:

Gonna stick with my plan of only spending my limited funds on what I think is cool and rare ... got the what I think is cool part figured out mostly, though it's constantly evolving...just trying to get a grasp of what's actually rare, hence my questioning and philosophical rambling on file copies here.

It's a good plan.  Looking at that Heritage link most of the common file copies are 1950s Dell and Charlton and I'd generally avoid those.  You can also get a pretty good idea of rarity from the CGC census.  

[adamstrange]

10 hours ago, catman76 said:

I remember seeing a video from the 70s or 80s of a tour through DC's offices and they showed the room where they keep all the comics they ever published, but they are all bound. The guy was flipping through bound copies of detective comics showing #1 and ones with Action comics and all that, all bound into books on shelves.

 

They do a tour of DC Archive room.

 

 

[Yorick]

17 hours ago, szavisca said:

Yeah would be nice if there had been a distinction made but I suppose CGC/the dealers/owners of these books are happy to have the 'warehouse overstock" called "file copies" because it increases their allure.

I think you nailed it and set the appropriate terminology.  Overstock v File Copy.  All those high grade books are Overstock.

[lou_fine]

17 hours ago, szavisca said:

Interesting, who knows what treasures those offices still hold...even bound copies of all those would be worth a fortune.

The real question is:  Who knows what absolute worthless garbage these offices would hold if they kept multiple copies of every single book they ever published? 

After all, for every single hot book such as NM 98, BA 12, or WD 1, these guys are printing tens of thousand of other books which has absolutely no collectible value at all and not even worth the paper it's printed on.  They would have to spend a fortune to store all of these books and then to have somebody come in to haul them all away to the landfill or recycling plant. 

I believe these companies are here to print and sell comic books, as opposed to trying to speculate on them because they know a lot better than to try to play that fool's game with new books that's available in mass quantities. 

[jimjum12]

16 hours ago, thehumantorch said:

16 hours ago, szavisca said:

Gonna stick with my plan of only spending my limited funds on what I think is cool and rare ... got the what I think is cool part figured out mostly, though it's constantly evolving...just trying to get a grasp of what's actually rare, hence my questioning and philosophical rambling on file copies here.

It's a good plan.  Looking at that Heritage link most of the common file copies are 1950s Dell and Charlton and I'd generally avoid those.  You can also get a pretty good idea of rarity from the CGC census.  

....... However ................................................ on the other hand.................. if one truly likes a book and there were 25 or 30 overstock copies of it, the price might be especially "manageable". Also, the better material gets quickly absorbed..... try to find a Harvey File Copy of one of the first 10 issues of Hot Stuff, for example. GOD BLESS.....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[lou_fine]

On 6/24/2017 at 0:53 PM, Sqeggs said:

On 6/23/2017 at 9:15 PM, AJD said:

I've got quite a few Dell file copies. Some of them have the editorial department stamp on them, like this one:

 

 

And others don't. I don't know how GCG decided this was a file copy. I've cracked it out, and there are no marks inside:

Unfortunately, we seem to be stuck with two types of books both being labeled "file copies."  To my mind, the top book is a true file copy in the sense of a book kept in an editorial department file to be used for reference.  The bottom book is an example, I think, of the second type of "file copy":  a book that was unsold that the publisher kept around, possibly in a warehouse.  Those types of books aren't really "file copies" in the everyday sense of the term.

I've actually got some of the Poughkeepsie File Copies for Crackajack Funnies dating as far back as the late 30's and early 40's.  These copies either came with the "File Copy" notation scrawled across the front cover or with nothing at all on the copy. 

Sent one of them in for grading back when CGC first started up and it came back as a CGC 9.6 graded copy with the Poughkeepsie File Copy pedigree designation on the label.  Not bad for a book from 1939!