Batman 324 whitman 2 2

[PeterPark]

IMHO Batman 324 is definitely one of the toughest 8 Whitman variants...

[bellrules]

On 7/22/2017 at 7:57 PM, Brock said:

This is a rarer Whitman for sure, but I personally wouldn't make as big a deal of it as CBSI and others are suggesting. Maybe among the 30 toughest, but definitely not the top 8.

Still, like Donut says, take what you can find in NM for $16...

So what would make your top 8 for rarest? For me, I've found less of these than DCCP 22

[Brock]

Hi Bell -

This is a really tough question, so bear with me while I unload my current thinking... we have so little data on these, that it's all speculation and opinion. The main problem is that EVERYONE's experience is anecdotal. To take it away from the DC Whitmans for a minute, let's think about the scarce 8-12/1980 Whitman (Western/Gold Key) pre-pack issues. Doug Sulipa has been tracking these for years, and has taken a stab at quantifying them by scarcity. He has handled far more of these issues than I have, and he also uses the CGC census, but my experience differs dramatically... I have multiple copies (for example) of Uncle Scrooge 179, Super Goof 61, and Black Hole 4, which are widely regarded as some of the toughest Whitmans out there. At the same time, I just snagged my first Yosemite Sam 70 last week, which I've never seen before. Of course, it doesn't make most people's "scarce" list. So who's right?

The problem with these books is that supply is generally so low, accurate assessments of numbers or relative scarcity is really tough... Both Doug's list and mine are valid, but based on the limited sample of books we have each seen. Doug's sample may be larger than mine, but it is till limited.

The 2nd thing to keep in mind is the historically low collectability of Whitmans. The Western/Gold Key books were not heavily collected, and (for may years) the DC Whitman variants were regarded as reprints. In my current thinking, this has shaped perceptions of scarcity in three significant ways:

1. Many books were not initially "curated" by collectors - because they were not "collectible", they were not generally saved, and certainly not (generally) protected by bagging, boarding, and boxing. This in turn means two things:
   • the books are scarce in a traditional collecting context, in that the typical comic shop will not have copies available
   • the books are more frequently found in lower grades, which creates a disparity between "total number of copies" and "total number of high grade copies"
2. Rising awareness of the scarcity of these books has emerged unevenly, and created strange price variations that may not represent true indications of supply and demand. One of the earliest books identified as "scarce", for example, was Uncle Scrooge 179. The awareness has caused prices to rise substantially ($1500 in the most recent Overstreet), but it has also spurred increased supply. People now actively seek the book, and the high price prompts them to sell it, which makes it APPEAR more plentiful, when in fact it may simply be more recognized. I think that DC Comics Presents #22 is going through this process at the moment. First, we weren't sure it existed (Overstreet still doesn't list it). Then it's identified, and begins to attract attention, and some high prices ($1500 for a CGC 8.5, $590 for the most recent low grade copy). Then people start to find more (both you and I have found copies in the past 18 months). The PERCEPTION of supply has gone from 0 copies existing, to perhaps 20 copies known, but the ACTUAL supply has not changed.
3. Rising "collectability" ensures that supply accuracy becomes HARDER to understand over time. As the popularity of Whitmans rises, they are snatched up by collectors when they appear, and buried in collections. Issues "identified" as rare (by CBSI, by Sulipa, by Overstreet, etc.) are the FIRST to disappear, and the ones that people hold onto longest. Last week I found a copy of Super Goof 61, which seemed like just another tougher Whitman book to me, until I saw comicspriceguide.com's notation that this was "considered the rarest Whitman comic" with a valuation of $800. I'm much less likely to let go of this now, even though it's my second copy. And unless I posted this note, no one would ever know that another copy (or copies) had disappeared into my collection.

So what does all this mean? Here's my takeaways...

• Very few Whitmans are "impossible"... the supply is generally better than we think, but the distribution and visibility of these books is both random and poor
• Some Whitmans are EXTREMELY tough in high grade... It seems that DC Comics Presents #22 has an 8.5 as the best copy, for example
• Those who claim knowledge of actual Whitman scarcity are doing so based on limited (and, I would suggest) inaccurate personal assessments of incomplete data (though Canadian data may be slightly better than US data in these cases)

In my own guesstimates of scarcity, I reflect on the factors outlined (1-3) above and suggest the following, recognizing that I can't really make valid observations about TOTAL supply:

• Earlier Whitmans are easier to find in high grade than later Whitmans
• Whitman treasuries are generally easier to find that many regular issues, and presumably had a different distribution mechanism
• Traditionally collected titles (like Batman, Action or Superman) are easier to find in high grades
• Traditionally un-collected titles (like DC Comics Presents or New Adventures of Superboy) are harder to find in high grades
• #1 issues (such as DC Comics Presents #1 or New Adventures of Superboy #1) are generally easier to find than other issues of those titles, and are generally in higher grade
• Whitman "experiments" like Sgt. Rock #329 or Warlord #22 are tough in all grades, but especially in high grade

Ultimately, while I'd be hesitant to make a formal "list" of the scarcest books, I'd be leaning to things like DC Comics Presents #22, New Adventures of Superboy #6, or Warlord #22. Justice League of America #179 seems to be a tough book. I think that Sgt. Rock #329 is a sleeping giant, and a genuinely scarce book. I think DC Comics Presents #10 is very hard in high grade, though a little easier in low-to-mid grades.

This is probably waaaaay more than you wanted (and without an actual scarcity list, perhaps way less at the same time), but it would be great to spur a larger discussion about this. I'll be the first to admit that my knowledge is limited, so I look forward to more input...

And, if anyone's interested, I have some thoughts on how a crowd-sourced project to get a better measure of scarcity for DC Whitmans might be a possibility... 

[comicwiz]

You'll find a lot of the "demand" on issues such as Uncle Scrooge 179 relates to Scrooge focus collectors, and Black Hole 4, which crosses into spaceship and dinosaur cover collectors, as well as Whitman collecters for both. Super Goof 61 isn't the rarest Whitman from Sulipa's list, neither is Uncle Scrooge 179, and in my opinion, Black Hole #4 isn't either. I found 6 copies of Black Hole #4 in the space of approximately 6 months with an above average intent to find them, all in dealer inventory. At that time, it guided at $16 in NM, and VF or lesser copies were selling consistently for over $100 on eBay. The common thread they all share is that no dealer will spend time going through their inventory to pull this to sell for guide. A few are out there because dealers couldn't be bothered to fulfill my requests. Doug's inventory surpases practically any other dealers inventory I know, except maybe for Chuck's if we take him for his word. The difference is Doug was tracking these as they came through him before anyone here. Wild finds of these are more likely to occur in thrift shops (I made an exceptional find 2 years ago in London, Ontario, with a dozen from the rares list).

I'm with you on the spotty distribution, but the thing that you have overlooked (which I have always felt is important in niche markets such as these) is that the market, particularly the value dynamics of these low distribution comics, is a tendency similarly found with price variants. Collectors want to find them in the wild, pay next to nothing for them, but want to price them to the moon when they luck into one to resell. You can't effectively grow a market where collectors seemingly want them, but don't want to pay more than guide for it. Anybody with common sense would rather sit on them, or let their kids have at them rather than to allow some "collector" to cherry-pick it out of their collection for an eBay flip.

Doug's list is pretty darn good, nothing wrong with it in my opinion. It's how people use his information that is the problem.

Edited January 5, 2018 by comicwiz

[FlyingDonut]

I think another data point to use for these is mycomicshop - I have a want list with all the DC Whitmans on it and have never gotten a hit for the Sgt. Rock 329, while the other ones have popped up.

I have also always heard that the hardest of all Whitmans to find is Woody Woodpecker 191, just for what its worth.

I also think that Canada got a higher percentage of Whitmans than the USA did.

[comicwiz]

6 hours ago, FlyingDonut said:

I have also always heard that the hardest of all Whitmans to find is Woody Woodpecker 191, just for what its worth.

Yes, I'd have to agree. I've owned and seen far fewer copies than any of the others mentioned on the list.  I always liked the cover, so I scooped up the OA cover when it came up.

6 hours ago, FlyingDonut said:

I also think that Canada got a higher percentage of Whitmans than the USA did.

I would agree if they were Canadian Price Variants, but not as a general rule. As a multipack collector, I'm more inclined to think distribution was just as spotty here. I pick at least once a year from one of the biggest multipack collections I know, and over 90% of his Whitmans are sourced from the US.

Edited January 5, 2018 by comicwiz

[Brock]

This is really helpful insight, comicwiz... I appreciate the feedback, and share the following thoughts in response, in the interest of keeping the discussion going.

16 hours ago, comicwiz said:

You'll find a lot of the "demand" on issues such as Uncle Scrooge 179 relates to Scrooge focus collectors, and Black Hole 4, which crosses into spaceship and dinosaur cover collectors, as well as Whitman collecters for both. Super Goof 61 isn't the rarest Whitman from Sulipa's list, neither is Uncle Scrooge 179, and in my opinion, Black Hole #4 isn't either.

I think this is key... it is, to some extent, the non-Whitman collectors that drove the first price spikes. I guess I'm not necessarily convinced that "dinosaur cover collectors" are a thing any more (or at least, not a segment large enough to drive the market), but I certainly think Scrooge collectors drove the prices up on Uncle Scrooge #179. This is much the way that Star Wars collectors, rather than variant collectors, drove the initial price jumps on the 35 cent variant of Star Wars #1.

Doug's list has changed a lot over the years, but he currently (as far as I can tell) makes no claims about relative rarity. He does identify what he says are the 40 rarest books (including Black Hole #4, Super Goof #61, and Uncle Scrooge #179), but he only lists the 40 alphanumerically, without claims about individual books. The claim about Super Goof #61 (which, like you, I don't agree with) is from comicspriceguide.com, and not from Doug.

16 hours ago, comicwiz said:

Doug's inventory surpases practically any other dealers inventory I know, except maybe for Chuck's if we take him for his word. The difference is Doug was tracking these as they came through him before anyone here.

I think we owe Doug a huge vote of thanks for the first real attempt to track these, and now its important for us (if we're interested in these things, or preparing to make claims about relative scarcity) to build on that start.

16 hours ago, comicwiz said:

Wild finds of these are more likely to occur in thrift shops (I made an exceptional find 2 years ago in London, Ontario, with a dozen from the rares list).

I agree completely, and was trying to make the same point above by suggesting that most dealers do not have these books in their inventory, meaning supply is (generally) only available through non-traditional sources. Your London, ON experience also mirrors my growing conviction that Canada was a "primary distribution cluster" for these books.

16 hours ago, comicwiz said:

I'm with you on the spotty distribution, but the thing that you have overlooked (which I have always felt is important in niche markets such as these) is that the market, particularly the value dynamics of these low distribution comics, is a tendency similarly found with price variants. Collectors want to find them in the wild, pay next to nothing for them, but want to price them to the moon when they luck into one to resell. You can't effectively grow a market where collectors seemingly want them, but don't want to pay more than guide for it. Anybody with common sense would rather sit on them, or let their kids have at them rather than to allow some "collector" to cherry-pick it out of their collection for an eBay flip.

I agree completely. However, I think many scarce books begin this way. We certainly saw this with the 35 cent Marvel variants, and its now underway with the 30 cent variants. We may be seeing signs of this with 75 cent Whitman Canadian price variants, and even with Copper Age DCU variants. In my mind, this is a natural stage in the maturing process of a very scarce collectible.

I'll also say that I'm likely guilty of this to a certain extent. I'm fascinated by the 8-12/80 Whitman variants, and I buy  when I can scoop them cheap, but don't pay big for them, as it's not really a focus of my collecting. Having said that, I have and will pay good money for DC Whitman variants. I'm #1 on the registry right now with these, and it's taken a lot of work to get there, with a long way to go. And, in my experience, offering money doesn't tend to draw these out... I've posted 5 or 6 times in the WTB section here on the boards for example, seeking CGC-slabbed (9.0 or higher) DC Whitmans, but have NEVER had a response (barring a few offers of raw copies). Ironically, Doug Sulipa has become my major source.

17 hours ago, comicwiz said:

Doug's list is pretty darn good, nothing wrong with it in my opinion. It's how people use his information that is the problem.

Agreed, but with the caveat that his list is (essentially) 40 books listed in random order, without being ranked. (As an aside, he also identifies what he considers the 68 rarest and their numbers from the CGC census in a second list).

He also doesn't make any lists or claims about the relative scarcity of DC Whitmans at all...

[Brock]

13 hours ago, FlyingDonut said:

I have also always heard that the hardest of all Whitmans to find is Woody Woodpecker 191, just for what its worth.

Interesting... I haven't seen this referenced before, but it would make sense. If "hero titles" (Battle of the Planets, Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, etc) were the most collected, followed by Disney titles, and then Looney Tunes (and Bugs Bunny, Porky Pig, etc.), that would leave titles like Woody Woodpecker, Little Lulu and Popeye as the tough books. For a time, many considered Little Lulu #260 to be the toughest book.

I have a copy of Woody Woodpecker #191, so it hadn't jumped out to me as a tougher book, but it makes sense.

[bellrules]

On 04/01/2018 at 10:31 AM, Brock said:

Hi Bell -

This is a really tough question, so bear with me while I unload my current thinking... we have so little data on these, that it's all speculation and opinion. The main problem is that EVERYONE's experience is anecdotal. To take it away from the DC Whitmans for a minute, let's think about the scarce 8-12/1980 Whitman (Western/Gold Key) pre-pack issues. Doug Sulipa has been tracking these for years, and has taken a stab at quantifying them by scarcity. He has handled far more of these issues than I have, and he also uses the CGC census, but my experience differs dramatically... I have multiple copies (for example) of Uncle Scrooge 179, Super Goof 61, and Black Hole 4, which are widely regarded as some of the toughest Whitmans out there. At the same time, I just snagged my first Yosemite Sam 70 last week, which I've never seen before. Of course, it doesn't make most people's "scarce" list. So who's right?

The problem with these books is that supply is generally so low, accurate assessments of numbers or relative scarcity is really tough... Both Doug's list and mine are valid, but based on the limited sample of books we have each seen. Doug's sample may be larger than mine, but it is till limited.

The 2nd thing to keep in mind is the historically low collectability of Whitmans. The Western/Gold Key books were not heavily collected, and (for may years) the DC Whitman variants were regarded as reprints. In my current thinking, this has shaped perceptions of scarcity in three significant ways:

1. Many books were not initially "curated" by collectors - because they were not "collectible", they were not generally saved, and certainly not (generally) protected by bagging, boarding, and boxing. This in turn means two things:
   • the books are scarce in a traditional collecting context, in that the typical comic shop will not have copies available
   • the books are more frequently found in lower grades, which creates a disparity between "total number of copies" and "total number of high grade copies"
2. Rising awareness of the scarcity of these books has emerged unevenly, and created strange price variations that may not represent true indications of supply and demand. One of the earliest books identified as "scarce", for example, was Uncle Scrooge 179. The awareness has caused prices to rise substantially ($1500 in the most recent Overstreet), but it has also spurred increased supply. People now actively seek the book, and the high price prompts them to sell it, which makes it APPEAR more plentiful, when in fact it may simply be more recognized. I think that DC Comics Presents #22 is going through this process at the moment. First, we weren't sure it existed (Overstreet still doesn't list it). Then it's identified, and begins to attract attention, and some high prices ($1500 for a CGC 8.5, $590 for the most recent low grade copy). Then people start to find more (both you and I have found copies in the past 18 months). The PERCEPTION of supply has gone from 0 copies existing, to perhaps 20 copies known, but the ACTUAL supply has not changed.
3. Rising "collectability" ensures that supply accuracy becomes HARDER to understand over time. As the popularity of Whitmans rises, they are snatched up by collectors when they appear, and buried in collections. Issues "identified" as rare (by CBSI, by Sulipa, by Overstreet, etc.) are the FIRST to disappear, and the ones that people hold onto longest. Last week I found a copy of Super Goof 61, which seemed like just another tougher Whitman book to me, until I saw comicspriceguide.com's notation that this was "considered the rarest Whitman comic" with a valuation of $800. I'm much less likely to let go of this now, even though it's my second copy. And unless I posted this note, no one would ever know that another copy (or copies) had disappeared into my collection.

So what does all this mean? Here's my takeaways...

• Very few Whitmans are "impossible"... the supply is generally better than we think, but the distribution and visibility of these books is both random and poor
• Some Whitmans are EXTREMELY tough in high grade... It seems that DC Comics Presents #22 has an 8.5 as the best copy, for example
• Those who claim knowledge of actual Whitman scarcity are doing so based on limited (and, I would suggest) inaccurate personal assessments of incomplete data (though Canadian data may be slightly better than US data in these cases)

In my own guesstimates of scarcity, I reflect on the factors outlined (1-3) above and suggest the following, recognizing that I can't really make valid observations about TOTAL supply:

• Earlier Whitmans are easier to find in high grade than later Whitmans
• Whitman treasuries are generally easier to find that many regular issues, and presumably had a different distribution mechanism
• Traditionally collected titles (like Batman, Action or Superman) are easier to find in high grades
• Traditionally un-collected titles (like DC Comics Presents or New Adventures of Superboy) are harder to find in high grades
• #1 issues (such as DC Comics Presents #1 or New Adventures of Superboy #1) are generally easier to find than other issues of those titles, and are generally in higher grade
• Whitman "experiments" like Sgt. Rock #329 or Warlord #22 are tough in all grades, but especially in high grade

Ultimately, while I'd be hesitant to make a formal "list" of the scarcest books, I'd be leaning to things like DC Comics Presents #22, New Adventures of Superboy #6, or Warlord #22. Justice League of America #179 seems to be a tough book. I think that Sgt. Rock #329 is a sleeping giant, and a genuinely scarce book. I think DC Comics Presents #10 is very hard in high grade, though a little easier in low-to-mid grades.

This is probably waaaaay more than you wanted (and without an actual scarcity list, perhaps way less at the same time), but it would be great to spur a larger discussion about this. I'll be the first to admit that my knowledge is limited, so I look forward to more input...

And, if anyone's interested, I have some thoughts on how a crowd-sourced project to get a better measure of scarcity for DC Whitmans might be a possibility... 

Thanks for the insight. It is very spotty as to what books show up and where. For some reason, Flash 286 has been showing up for me lately. I have never seen a SGT Rock in my years of collecting these, but I have managed to find 2 copies of Warlord 22. (I hear the war collectors look for the 329 as well)

[Brock]

On 1/5/2018 at 12:37 AM, FlyingDonut said:

I have also always heard that the hardest of all Whitmans to find is Woody Woodpecker 191, just for what its worth.

I also think that Canada got a higher percentage of Whitmans than the USA did.

Say the name of a book three times in the mirror, and bingo... it appears.

Yesterday, I found a copy of Woody Woodpecker 191 in an antique mall just outside of Hamilton, ON.

That's my 2nd copy of that one... The more I try to figure out the scarcity question, the more it eludes me.

It might also be worth noting that several copies of the (allegedly) very tough Action 508 Whitman have popped up in the past couple of weeks, including 3 on ebay. 

Edit: It might be worth noting that all 3 Action 508s were from Canada (1 form Ontario, 2 from Manitoba)

Edited January 31, 2018 by Brock
Update

[Brock]

And for the sake of providing some further thoughts on relative scarcity of DC Whitmans, some additional thoughts:

• Earlier Whitmans are easier to find in high grade than later Whitmans
• Whitman treasuries are generally easier to find that many regular issues, and presumably had a different distribution mechanism
• Traditionally collected titles (like Batman, Action or Superman) are easier to find in high grades
• Traditionally un-collected titles (like DC Comics Presents or New Adventures of Superboy) are harder to find in high grades
• The most common Whitmans seem to be the exception to the previous point - DC Comics Presents 1, 2 and 3 are EXTREMELY common, and often found in higher grades; perversely, they are among the highest priced Whitmans in Overstreet
• #1 issues (such as DC Comics Presents #1 or New Adventures of Superboy #1) are generally easier to find than other issues of those titles, and are generally in higher grade
• Whitman "experiments" like Sgt. Rock #329 or Warlord #22 are tough in all grades, but especially in high grade

 As a final aside, since Whitmans were sold bagged, and the contents of each bag are fairly standard (i.e. the mix of books ion each bag was apparently not random), I'm really curious to know what DC Comics Presents #22 was bagged with.

[Warlord]

5 hours ago, Brock said:

And for the sake of providing some further thoughts on relative scarcity of DC Whitmans, some additional thoughts:

• Earlier Whitmans are easier to find in high grade than later Whitmans
• Whitman treasuries are generally easier to find that many regular issues, and presumably had a different distribution mechanism
• Traditionally collected titles (like Batman, Action or Superman) are easier to find in high grades
• Traditionally un-collected titles (like DC Comics Presents or New Adventures of Superboy) are harder to find in high grades
• The most common Whitmans seem to be the exception to the previous point - DC Comics Presents 1, 2 and 3 are EXTREMELY common, and often found in higher grades; perversely, they are among the highest priced Whitmans in Overstreet
• #1 issues (such as DC Comics Presents #1 or New Adventures of Superboy #1) are generally easier to find than other issues of those titles, and are generally in higher grade
• Whitman "experiments" like Sgt. Rock #329 or Warlord #22 are tough in all grades, but especially in high grade

 As a final aside, since Whitmans were sold bagged, and the contents of each bag are fairly standard (i.e. the mix of books ion each bag was apparently not random), I'm really curious to know what DC Comics Presents #22 was bagged with.

 

Two Batman 324s were sold on ebay too.  Both went in BINs with one in a lot of multiple rares that left plenty of money on the table.

To the question of what comics were in a pack with DCCP22, I would very much like to know that too!  Other packs with the later issues of DCCP that I've documented include these two:

Brave and the Bold 155, DC Comics Presents 15, Superman 341

Brave and the Bold 165, DC Comics Presents 19, Superboy & LSH 266

Curiously neither of these packs include three issues all from the same month.  The first includes comics from two consecutive months, but the second pack contains two issues from Aug 1980 together with the much older March 1980 DCCP 19.

Also if DCCP 19 is in a 3-pack with two other issues from Aug 80 (the last month for DCWs), then there are literally no other later Whitmans that could logically be packaged with DCCP22.  Both of these known packs include a B&B issue, but there are no DCW B&B issues that came after B&B 165.   I suppose it's even possible that DCCP22 was in a 2-pack, not a 3-pack.

All of which is to say that the known DC Whitman pack examples don't provide enough evidence to lead (me, anyway) to a conclusion about what might have been packaged with DCCP22

Edited January 31, 2018 by Warlord