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WONDER WOMAN 2 directed by Patty Jenkins (11/1/19)
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1,313 posts in this topic

43 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Actually, that is not an accurate statement concerning the history of the MCU. It was a very well laid out plan with the full backing of the Marvel Entertainment executive team after the massive success of the Blade, X-Men and Spider-Man movies. The gamble was going it alone rather than splitting the profits with studios that captured the bulk of the benefits.

Wait, the idea of creating a successful series of Marvel crossover movies was absolutely an experiment. Sure the plan was to make money, but nobody really knew how this whole thing was going to work. I've read that the idea of actually crossing over movies wasn't really taken seriously until after fan reaction to the Iron Man credits scene. But if Thor doesn't work, the Avengers doesn't really work. And if Avengers didn't work, we'd be in a whole different reality right now.

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2 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Wait, the idea of creating a successful series of Marvel crossover movies was absolutely an experiment. Sure the plan was to make money, but nobody really knew how this whole thing was going to work. I've read that the idea of actually crossing over movies wasn't really taken seriously until after fan reaction to the Iron Man credits scene. But if Thor doesn't work, the Avengers doesn't really work. And if Avengers didn't work, we'd be in a whole different reality right now.

They very much knew how well it could go over. Though nothing to the level it took off. Yet with the very positive box office and fan responses to the Blade, X-Men and Spider-Man films Marvel knew it had the keys to the kingdom if done right. Feige just took it much further by bringing his original proposal from Fox/Marvel to Disney/Marvel Studios and making it a reality. A huge miss on Fox's part.

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1 minute ago, @therealsilvermane said:

There sure is a lot of Marvel talk here in a Wonder Woman 1984 thread.

Due to you wanting to distract from the film. How about we focus more on the movie and less on your fantasy?

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Hmm. Mark Hughes from Forbes Dot Com collected up some interesting points, whether I agree with them or not.

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Now that we are several days into the release of Wonder Woman 1984, it is possible — indeed, necessary — to have a discussion about the film’s themes, and about the severe negative reaction it has generated from some viewers. Some of those reactions go beyond criticizing the film and expand into criticizing anyone who likes the film, asserting the film lacks any redeeming value and is evil to the point of staining the integrity of those who like it. So this is a spoiler discussion (you can read my non-spoiler full review here), and it is my own assertion of what the film means, what your reaction to it could mean, and the chance to bridge the gaps between us.

 

Wonder Woman 1984 started out with high praise from the roughly first 100 or so people who saw earlier preview screenings. There were a few negative reviews, but nothing erupting into controversy or making broader accusations against the film, its makers, and anyone who says they like it. Then came those angry reactions insisting anyone who liked it is defending horribly inhuman things and therefore tainted (to put it mildly) by their opinion of the film. Afterward came the rush of new negative reviews denouncing the film to increasingly absolutist degrees.

 

But despite the anger and accusations, despite the backlash and arguments, Wonder Woman 1984 is not what it’s accused of being by its harsher critics, and its message resonates powerfully for many people who feel trapped in this moment in history and who cannot see a way back from the abyss.

 

Questions of the film’s tone and action sequences are frankly of little interest to me, since most of the same folks offering up those complaints were eager to praise the silliness of many other superhero films. One day it’s “these films take themselves too seriously,” and the next it’s “this film is silly and should take itself more seriously.” Wash, rinse, repeat as necessary (or as clicks and payday necessitate).

 

Likewise, when men helm films we see far more willingness to weigh “that which works” as more important than “that which doesn’t work,” and allow them room to come back later and impress us. A woman, though? Not so much, as Patty Jenkins has been personally insulted and condemned by voices declaring Wonder Woman 1984 an inexcusable offense to humanity. If you think I’m being hyperbolic about the accusations hurled against the film and its defenders, go look around social media and press coverage for 30 seconds, and then come back to finish this article...

 

You either like this or that action scene in whatever film, or you don’t. You either feel the best elements of a particular film outweigh its flaws, or you don’t. I’m not going to debate such things because it’s pointless, as we all know inconsistencies exist in everyone’s subjective opinions about art — including my own views, as well as yours — and we all know some folks will give different performers or directors or characters or studios greater leeway to make mistakes and correct themselves or not. Inconsistencies in normal people are par for the course and we’d do well to get over the knee-jerk reaction of feeling upset to find out other people don’t always share our personal feelings about fairy tales and myths.

 

Those are never issues worth debating or requiring a follow-up article, either because they are correct or they are being ridiculous or it doesn’t matter. But a film’s themes, if they are important and speak to a moment in history and to lived experiences, if they resonate with us and touch us deeply in a way that causes us to rethink our perspective, then those are things worth debating and following up. Especially if the critiques of them rise to the level of denunciation of the existence of the thing, and denounce those who disagree that it represents the things it’s accused of representing.

 

That’s what I want to talk about here, and I hope I am able to give voice to ideas and feelings that desperately deserve to be recognized and talked about now, today, because they matter and can help inform where we go from here as a society amid so much loss, pain, division, and increasing inability to look at ourselves and others with a more honest and human appraisal. This has been a long lead-in, but I hope you will forgive me the attempt to clarify my position and my choice to discuss this here, because I am going to be very blunt and unflattering about myself and my own emotions now...

 

When I first saw Wonder Woman 1984, my elderly mother was lying alone in an isolation ward at an assisted living facility. She was infected with COVID-19, which made her already delicate health condition more fragile. She was confused more often, tired more often, couldn’t get out of bed. None of us could touch her or hug her. She didn’t answer the phone much anymore because everything became harder for her, even something as simple as talking to her children.

 

It didn’t have to happen. But it did. It happened because we live in a world where wish-fantasies lead short-sighted and selfish people to make terrible choices risking not only their own safety and lives, but also the safety and lives of those around them. Where wearing a mask in an assisted living home is too much of a “sacrifice” for some people, laying low a woman who sacrificed and survived World War II after Nazis bombed her home and gunned down her classmates as she fled into the forest.

 

I cannot adequately express my anger and sorrow over all of this. If COVID takes my mother or another of my family and friends, there will be no way for me to forgive those who perpetuated the falsehoods and conspiracies which convinced tens of millions of people that taking the simplest precaution to protect themselves and their fellow citizens wasn’t worth it. It would take a grace far greater than I carry within me to see my mother’s condition and have anything other than a singular focused desire to see those responsible pay for what they’ve done — to her, to me, and to all of us.

Yes, I judge. Yes, I blame. And yes, I want justice. Or I thought I did.

 

What I really want is retribution. I also want “justice,” but the truth — the hard, blunt, honest truth — is that I want justice to the extent it’s the manifestation of my desired vengeance; and to the extent justice falls short, I want more than justice can offer. And I know logically, rationally, it isn’t realistic or desirable for my intense anger-motivated revenge to match the limits and boundaries of real justice.

 

But suppose. Suppose for a moment I had the power to make them the same. Suppose justice could be whatever I wanted it to be — could be righteous (as I see it) divine retribution. Would I? Would I want it, would I make it so? And would I recognize how wrong it was to allow my personal sense of retribution to supplant the need for justice?

 

I hope so. And to that end, Wonder Woman 1984 came at a perfect time for me, because I cannot allow my boiling anger and deep sorrow to consume me anymore. I can be angry at injustice, I can speak loudly against threats to our populace and democracy, and I can stand up in unity with others to fight to preserve the people and their liberties — without confusing the need for real justice and accountability (which I absolutely support and believe is crucial) with the personal desire for raw retribution.

 

Grace, like mercy, is for those who need it. That’s what it is, after all, and sometimes those who need it are good people or ordinary people trapped in a terrible condition. Other times, they are bad people who brought a terrible situation upon themselves and/or other people. When the piper comes to play, grace and mercy are not earned because they (by definition) transcend the concept of weighted judgment with measured response. It is about holding fate in your hand and making a choice that defies other outcomes and expectations entirely.

 

Grace and mercy cannot and do not replace justice — they mustn’t, of course — but nor do they contradict it. When we are at our best, they strengthen one another and, in turn, strengthen us as a result. I am a stronger and better man when I let grace and mercy inform my responses, within the boundaries and demands of justice and equity, rather than allowing my anger and desire for revenge to inform my demands of justice.

 

The world is not whatever we wish it to be, nor can we demand reality change to suit our desires and desired outcomes. If it did, justice would become retribution and we’d all eventually find ourselves on the receiving end of angers and resentments devoid of true justice. And for many — perhaps most — of us, the realization of what we’re doing might come late, but as long as it comes then there remains a chance for grace and mercy to intervene. Not just for the people we have in our sites, but also for ourselves. Because there is a price we pay for the wrongs and harms we do against others. There is a price we pay when we refuse to admit the truth while it aches in our hearts.

 

This is the secret of grace and mercy. They save not only the recipients, but also the givers. We grant grace and mercy to ourselves when we choose to grant them to others. And sometimes, we are the ones most truly in need of that grace and mercy, even when we might not realize it.

 

If this sounds idealistic, if it seems to rely too much on presuming the angels of our better nature, that’s hardly grounds to hate the film. Don’t misunderstand me, I have heard plenty of folks say the idealized outcome in the climax of the film — everyone realizing they must sacrifice their selfish desire for the sake of not just the world but also themselves in a pure, honest sense as well — feels hard to accept right now when so many of our struggles are precisely because a lot of people are unwilling to make the simplest sacrifices (wearing a mask, staying home) and when such virulent animosity exists between ideological opponents. And I understand that completely, it’s frankly part of what I’m talking about in my own extreme feelings after my mother contracted COVID and as I watch the nightmare unfolding in the news every day. I get it, I do, and part of that feeling resides within me, too.

 

But that’s not the anti-idealism I’m talking about. I’m speaking more about the dismissal of the film and the seeming resentment toward it for projecting the idealism, among the harshest critics who insist its message is actually harmful, actually bad, actually hurtful, and so on. I am talking about the underlying issue of perception and belief, of wanting to feel better and being willing to admit we cannot feel better unless and until we are willing to accept hope and leaps of faith and unity of action to save ourselves. I’m talking about my mother, my anger, and the fact it is poisoning me and making me unable to imagine a better future unless I accept the possibility I can let go of it and hope — believe — in something better, for all of us.

 

The cynicism it takes to watch a superhero fantasy film about a character precisely invented and intended to be inspirational to the point of overcoming our worst impulses and teaching us all to be gentler and kinder to each other, and to complain about a story in which a God-on-Earth uses magic to appeal to the world to save itself, is a deeper level of pessimism and contempt than I can relate to.

 

Do you roll your eyes or say you are offended by storytelling in a family film with an appeal for transcending our shallow limitations so we can believe humanity will save itself? Are you angry that imaginary people facing an apocalypse were depicted listening to a superhero-God who asked them to look at the truth and see how their own selfish desires are not the same as the things they truly hold most dear, and are not a substitute for justice? Do you look at the world around you and decide we need LESS storytelling that appeals to our idealism and posits a world in which grace and mercy are transformative, in which people can look at the truth and make a choice in that moment to try to be better?

 

If you are convinced that idealism is undesirable and unbelievable here, that the concept of humanity saving itself in a moment of crisis is undesirable, that grace and mercy are offensive — to the point even a family film with magic people in super-costumes shouldn’t dare reflect such things — then how can you utter a complaint about real-world pain and suffering? How can you voice a single desire for any transformative change, for things to be better, and for people to improve in the real life? If you can’t tolerate idealism and the message of unity in a make-believe story about magic wishes, how can you possibly justify believing there’s value in trying to make the real world better?

 

That sounds harsh, and I used hyperbole to push home the point about hyperbole toward fantasy storytelling’s idealism. Because if we cannot tolerate or accept such transformative idealism in our myths, how can we ever hope to achieve it in our lives?

 

Yes, it’s magical thinking, and hopefully you already knew that when you sat down to watch the fantasy movie about a superhero whose father is Zeus. But I’d also point out the actual “magic” of the film, the thing too cheesy, the thing that stretches believability until some folks cannot tolerate the movie, is not a superhero punching wrongness until goodness wins out due to the power of their super-punches. The “magical thinking” of the film is that people decide to be honest with themselves and set aside selfishness to save the world. Not alien invasions, not flying people who wear underwear on the outside of their clothes, not fist fights to determine the fate of the universe — humans making the right choice is what has been declared too silly and too insulting to take seriously.

 

While there’s plenty of reason to look around and feel such a simple concept is beyond the capacity of far too many of our fellow humans (again, not wearing a mask to an assisted living facility during a plague?), the moment we stop believing it’s possible and the moment we stop asking people to make the right choice? That’s the moment change becomes impossible, because those who want it most stop believing in it.

 

Wonder Woman 1984 came to us in one of our worst modern moments, a time when we are battling selfishness and intolerance and greed and deep social fractures threatening the fabric of society itself. The film came and preached a simple message of kindness and of not being afraid to look at the truth — the truth about ourselves, about others, and about what we need to do if we want to save ourselves and leave a better future for other generations. It said however hard it is to forgive others, to forgive ourselves, to give each other a way out of the impasse and out of the conflict, to declare a cease fire so we may come to a lasting peace.

 

Kurt Vonnegut once wrote that veterans of World War I said when the armistice took effect on November 11th in 1918, the sudden silence was like the voice of God speaking. A world full of people who had spent so long trying to destroy one another (and themselves in the process) found a way to stop.

 

There are all sorts of “yes but” responses to this, ways to minimize and mitigate the importance of it, to look for the tainting of the silver lining, to be cynical instead of hopeful about the end of a massacre. There is time later for pessimism, as we dig through the rubble for answers and truths, as we apply judgment and seek justice, which we surely must do. But in the moment, for the killing and destruction to end, for a chance to keep our worst impulses at bay and find a path toward peace so that we can reach some measure of justice, we must first let grace and mercy exist. The battlefield must fall silent if we are to hear the voice of God.

 

This isn’t about excusing the wrongs committed and the deeds done, this isn’t about forgiving and “moving on” in a way that ignores responsibility for the suffering it caused, and it isn’t about denying justice to those who deserve it or holding the guilty accountable. It also isn’t about ignoring the truth of severe problems in our society, inequities and prejudices and dangerous violent forces among us.

It’s about an inward gaze, which is possible even while we also pursue external justice. It’s about our own choices that contributed to creating the world we’re living in, it’s about recognizing the truth of ourselves and what we have done or not done, it’s about the fact most of us feel like we were never on the battlefield willingly but how sometimes we contributed to the cynicism and anti-idealism leading to war without contributing to the idealism and optimism necessary for peace.

 

This isn’t true of everyone, and it’s not to blame victims as if they somehow contribute to their own suffering. It is certainly not true of the parents and children in cages at the border, or the COVID patients at my mother’s assisted living facility and elsewhere around the country and world, or the Black people who simply say their lives have value but who are met with an outraged responses of “no.” There are many specific individual contexts and situations where broad “we all need to step back” reactions have no place. Such nuances can be true alongside broader points about the need for humanity as a whole, our nation as a collective entity, and each of us as a person within that world and nation, to look at ourselves and recognize collectively where we needs to do better as individuals and as a civilization.

 

I’m talking about the simple and fundamental truth that our society is largely shaped by the decisions and actions of most of us, collectively and individually, and that most of us in some way or context contribute to some measure of how this society turns out — and at varying moments, to varying degrees, most of us participate in or contribute somehow to the problems we see affecting our world and our country and our neighbors and ourselves. And that’s where our cynicism and idealism matter most.

 

Belief can be hard, especially today. There are plenty of reasons to doubt, reasons we’ve given ourselves or that have been forced upon us. That’s true because it always has been and always will be true. It’s also true that transcendent moments happen. Change happens. Progress happens. Peace and love happen. But they only happen when we believe they are possible, when we act to make them real, because we are the only ones who can.

 

That’s the point of Wonder Woman 1984. And at no time — none, anywhere, whatsoever — does it suggest the wishes of the wealthy and powerful are good things, that only “they” deserve to have wishes fulfilled. The notion this is somehow about interpretation is exactly as true as any claim that other objective facts we experience with our senses are “open to interpretation.”

 

If you look at the screen and watch the images and hear the words in Wonder Woman 1984, then there is no factual basis for claiming it sends a message that rich and powerful people deserve their wishes and nobody else does. It’s a bizarre claim about a film where the world is about to be destroyed precisely because of the wishes of the rich and powerful. Every step of the way, the rich and powerful use their wishes to obtain more wealth and power, and it is not only their undoing but also the undoing of the entire world.

 

The film puts a rather fine and obvious point on all of this — including the fact Wonder Woman herself was wrong to make her wish, that no she did not deserve her wish any more than anyone else did, that people lie to themselves to pretend their selfishness is harmless or is deserved, but in the end only by looking at the truth and being willing to give up the selfish desires can we spare others from suffering for our choices and spare ourselves the pain such dishonesty and selfishness inevitably bring.

 

Wonder Woman 1984 believes that truth can lead to grace, and mercy; that grace and mercy can lead to understanding; and that, together, these things — truth, grace, and mercy — are the only path forward to peace and justice in any lasting sense. It speaks in broad terms, as well as in specific terms.

 

The message applies to our anger at those around us in daily life, it applies to how we see the world around us, and it applies to the abuses and wrongs of those with power who let greed and oppression guide their hand. Any particular moment and event can require nuanced, distinct applications of different degrees, but it always begins with truth, if we wish it to end in peace and justice.

 

And the film’s central premise, the hope and idealism at its heart, is that the wide space in-between a beginning of truth and an ending of peace and justice is full of grace and mercy. It merely asks us to try, to make a start with one simple step and then another, and to try to do this together.

 

I cried at the end of Wonder Woman 1984, as she lay beaten and defeated physically, speaking her message to the world, asking them to look at the truth until it’s all they can see anymore and choose to do what’s right. I cried for myself and for my mother, I cried for her brother — my uncle — Arnie who died in August from pneumonia while his wife was allowed near him but his children wept outside his isolation ward, I cried for family and friends struggling with loneliness and depression and sickness, I cried for 300,000 dead and the hundreds of thousands more who will yet die, and I cried for the millions who lost those loved ones while wishing for someone to save them.

 

Nobody is coming to save us — not a president, not a party, not aliens, and not Wonder Woman. We have to save ourselves, and that means saving each other. That’s why the film ended exactly the way it did, because it couldn’t afford to end any other way. That’s true for us and our real world, too, and it’s only possible with grace and mercy. So we must remind ourselves who grace and mercy are for. For you. For me. For us.

 

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Two different pieces detailing how WW84 abjectly failed Cheetah.

They focus primarily on her lack of independent agency and depth - esp. relative to her comic book backstory and origin - but to me it was simpler -- she's Wonder Woman's archenemy, the closet analog we have to her version of the Joker, and instead she's relegated to a mere henchman / sidekick to Max Lord - just as Bane was to Poison Ivy in Batman & Robin.

I don't understand the writers' logic there - let alone given that one of the writers was none other than Geoff Johns.

*Especially* given that Greg Rucka gave us an updated ("Rebirth") origin for Barbara Minerva in the 2016 Wonder Woman run. They literally had the storyboards to do it right...or, at least, do it far less wrong.

https://collider.com/wonder-woman-1984-why-cheetah-fails-kristen-wiig/

https://www.vox.com/culture/2020/12/29/22197476/wonder-woman-1984-cheetah-kristen-wiig

 

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2 hours ago, media_junkie said:

Geez, that review sucked.  Dude needs to get off his high horse.

Like he shared in the article, Mark was writing that out at a stage where his mother was dealing with COVID. So I guess a more emotional state as he reflected on how Wonder Woman 1984's message impacted him.

But I guess you can also say his review sucked. It's a point. I guess.

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12 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

Like he shared in the article, Mark was writing that out at a stage where his mother was dealing with COVID. So I guess a more emotional state as he reflected on how Wonder Woman 1984's message impacted him.

But I guess you can also say his review sucked. It's a point. I guess.

He's unhinged.

These critics are liars.  They'll say anything to make Wonder Woman seem great.

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