Value of Spawn 1 UPC variant? 0

[jsilverjanet]

 

[1Cool]

1 hour ago, Aweandlorder said:

OMG please tell me that this is happening:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SPAWN-BATMAN-1-IMAGE-NEWSSTAND-VARIANT-COMIC-1ST-PRINT-MCFARLANE-MILLER-1994-/122462230853?hash=item1c83515945:g:0QgAAOSwRUhY9lLz

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spawn-Batman-No-Number-NN-Newstand-Scarce-Yellow-Returnable-Barcode-On-Back-/382035157114?hash=item58f311e07a:g:0xYAAOSwpP9Y6E-G

I'm going to start putting Newsstand in all my listing for those pesky 1970s books that have not sold.

[1Cool]

Anyone have an idea what the 1st direct book would have been?  You would think the 1st direct editions in 1980 or whenever they started designating direct vs newsstand would be rare.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

22 hours ago, GM8 said:

 

Well we're all eyes and ears waiting for your sufficiently thoughtful analysis disproving his expert (yup, nearly 40 years selling comics) opinion on Spawn newsstand numbers.

The burden of proof is on those making claims. This especially holds true when the claim is that a product one has for sale at outrageous prices is so rare. Where is Chuck's evidence of the 1:100 rarity?

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

2 hours ago, Logan510 said:

I find it amusing that some of the same people you see here besmirching Chuck for what they call his incorrect information about newsstand copies are benefiting from selling newsstand copies at a premium 

I'd say there's a difference between benefitting from a growing desire to own newsstand versions of comics and artificially creating that desire through the spread of unsupported information and/or misinformation. If those in the former group are not trying to reinforce the unsupported perception created by the latter, I don't necessarily think that they are doing anything wrong.

[Aweandlorder]

58 minutes ago, 1Cool said:

Anyone have an idea what the 1st direct book would have been?  You would think the 1st direct editions in 1980 or whenever they started designating direct vs newsstand would be rare.

Very rare!!! 

[jsilverjanet]

Didn't you buy a case of it?

[Logan510]

45 minutes ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

I'd say there's a difference between benefitting from a growing desire to own newsstand versions of comics and artificially creating that desire through the spread of unsupported information and/or misinformation. If those in the former group are not trying to reinforce the unsupported perception created by the latter, I don't necessarily think that they are doing anything wrong.

An artificial market has been created because of a UPC barcode, there are people benefiting from this, some more than others. I have no problem with this at all, but lets call it what it is and not try and skirt the issue.

[Get Marwood & I]

During my completist years I attempted to get a full set of ASM newsstands up to issue 700. I had a friend in the US to help me from ASM issue 690, and he got me the Superior Spideys up to issue 20 when the newsstands then stopped. My experience was that the later issues (500-700) were nigh on impossible to find. I searched for years and never managed to get certain issues (e.g. ASM #694 for which some on these boards have offered $500 bounties).

I spent a lot of time gathering info on newsstands and found that, whilst it was clear that the print run reduced significantly year by year up to the point of cancelltion, I never found that key expert who had the figures.

Many of Chucks claims seem to be generalisations, but the spirit of his argument is sound in my experience, i.e. newsstands become harder to find as you move up the years. Because he is a business man, Chuck knows that a late modern newsstand exists in comparably tiny quantities. He knows that if you look up ebay for, say, ASM #694 or 559, you will not find it. He also knows that the mad collector will pay a ridiculous premium for it. This is why, right or wrong, his newsstand prices are eye watering. One day, people (e.g. mad completists) probably will start to pay $100 or more for a newsstand copy of an ASM book on which the direct sells for $5.

I know nothing about Spawn. But the newsstand position interests me, so I have dived in here. I looked up Spawn #1 on Ebay. 346 results and I counted over 100 directs before I hit a newsstand. At the London Fair on Sunday, multiples of Spawn #1 directs. No newsstands. So whether Chuck is right or wrong, the actual process of trying to find the book bears out his overall position. Yes, you will find a Spawn newsstand. But will you in 5 or 10 years time?

I challenge anyone reading this to put together an ASM newsstand run of 600-700. See you in 10 years time.

I personally put information out on these boards to try to draw out experts who have the answers to my questions (see my threads on Pence, L Miller, 1999 Newsstand Price Variants, Early Marvel Font Variants etc). I never say I have the definitive answers. Only that my research has shown X and that ties in with Y so unless anyone knows better....and I end with 'happy to be proven wrong'. Too many people on these boards talk in certainties. Chuck is a recognised industry figure with an amazing comic history behind him. Lazyboy is a bloke on a chat forum. If I had to put my money on who knows the most, I would probably pick Lazyboy. I have spoken to countless dealers over 30 years. I mention a comic thing that interests me and they start to lecture me. I fire a question or two back - civil and friendly - and they clam up, when they realise you know more than them. It's natural for dealers to do that - they want to impress you. 

Chuck has ventured a set of % data for newsstand print runs. My collecting experience generally bears out his position. Does anyone have actual industry data to disprove his general position? I don't, which is why I try to avoid pounding everyone into submission who poses an alternative position.

 

 

[Aweandlorder]

13 minutes ago, jsilverjanet said:

Didn't you buy a case of it?

Yes!

Sold most at 20 x cap

[ygogolak]

3 hours ago, Aweandlorder said:

OMG please tell me that this is happening:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SPAWN-BATMAN-1-IMAGE-NEWSSTAND-VARIANT-COMIC-1ST-PRINT-MCFARLANE-MILLER-1994-/122462230853?hash=item1c83515945:g:0QgAAOSwRUhY9lLz

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spawn-Batman-No-Number-NN-Newstand-Scarce-Yellow-Returnable-Barcode-On-Back-/382035157114?hash=item58f311e07a:g:0xYAAOSwpP9Y6E-G

New Dimension has had that on their shelf for years. I'm sure they have multiple copies though.

[1Cool]

36 minutes ago, Aweandlorder said:

Very rare!!! 

That may be the 1st book that was designed for the direct market but 100% of the copies are direct.  Will there be a time when the books with the slash thru the price tag be considered rare since most copies were newsstand at that point?

[Lazyboy]

28 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

An artificial market has been created because of a UPC barcode, there are people benefiting from this, some more than others. I have no problem with this at all, but lets call it what it is and not try and skirt the issue.

Who created the market? Who is benefiting from this artificial market? Who is benefiting from this artificial market more than others? Who is attempting to counter the misinformation surrounding newsstand editions?

[cranky's]

43 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

An artificial market has been created because of a UPC barcode, there are people benefiting from this, some more than others. I have no problem with this at all, but lets call it what it is and not try and skirt the issue.

Unapologetic newsstand collector here.  Outside of the odd copper key and later truly HTF books I don't see much price difference with regard to newsstands.  Especially so at dealer booths.  It's not hard to find e-bay listings trying to capitalize but I don't think they're realizing sales. 

[GM8]

1 hour ago, Marwood & I said:

Many of Chucks claims seem to be generalisations, but the spirit of his argument is sound in my experience, i.e. newsstands become harder to find as you move up the years. Because he is a business man, Chuck knows that a late modern newsstand exists in comparably tiny quantities. He knows that if you look up ebay for, say, ASM #694 or 559, you will not find it. He also knows that the mad collector will pay a ridiculous premium for it. This is why, right or wrong, his newsstand prices are eye watering. One day, people (e.g. mad completists) probably will start to pay $100 or more for a newsstand copy of an ASM book on which the direct sells for $5.

I know nothing about Spawn. But the newsstand position interests me, so I have dived in here. I looked up Spawn #1 on Ebay. 346 results and I counted over 100 directs before I hit a newsstand. At the London Fair on Sunday, multiples of Spawn #1 directs. No newsstands. So whether Chuck is right or wrong, the actual process of trying to find the book bears out his overall position. Yes, you will find a Spawn newsstand. But will you in 5 or 10 years time?

 

Chuck has ventured a set of % data for newsstand print runs. My collecting experience generally bears out his position. Does anyone have actual industry data to disprove his general position? I don't, which is why I try to avoid pounding everyone into submission who poses an alternative position.

 

 

Thanks for your insight.  It is plain to see for anyone who disbelieves the numbers.  Go look for Spawn #1 newsstand and you'll see that sure enough there is about 1 for every 100 direct, give or take.  The number gets even more ridiculous as you get higher up as you state.  All it takes is a little investigation.   But no, we have to be "saved from ourselves" by the quixotic gestures of some armchair experts.

2 hours ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

The burden of proof is on those making claims. This especially holds true when the claim is that a product one has for sale at outrageous prices is so rare. Where is Chuck's evidence of the 1:100 rarity?

See above.

[newshane]

Here are some cold numbers...but unfortunately they offer little help.

Just a snapshot from one outlet, but there are currently 37 CGC graded copies of Spawn 1 at 9.8 for sale on eBay.

Out of that number, 2 are newsstand editions. That's 5%.

GPA does not delineate between direct and newsstand.

It appears that a copy of Spawn 1 sold for $400 earlier this month. I'm willing to bet that was a newsstand edition, although the registration number won't tell me when I perform a search on CGC's website.

Keep in mind that the books has a 90 day average sales number of $99 and has been on the uptick. The $400 book is an obvious outlier.

There are currently 3367 9.8 copies on the CGC Census. Once again, the CGC doesn't differentiate between the two editions so we'll never know, for sure, how many CGC examples are out there. Using 5% as the average for newsstand sales (which is probably inaccurate, but just throwing out a figure) there are 168 graded (9.8) newsstand copies out there.

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by newshane

[RockMyAmadeus]

9 hours ago, GM8 said:

Really, captain obvious?  Besides blathering on and on you purposely misinterpret things for effect.

Chuck at Mile High is a comic expert.  Get over it.

Making personally insulting comments about others because you disagree with them is antithetical to the purported rules of this fine establishment..plus, it's a general acknowledgement of the overall inherent unsubstantiality of the position being advanced.

I would ask which statements of yours were "misinterpreted", but, as per regular practice here and throughout modern society, I imagine an answer would not be forthcoming.

Chuck is not a "comic expert" though he is certainly an expert in several fields within comics, as are several people here. 

Good luck in your search for enlightenment.

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

6 hours ago, Logan510 said:

I find it amusing that some of the same people you see here besmirching Chuck for what they call his incorrect information about newsstand copies are benefiting from selling newsstand copies at a premium 

I'd say there's a difference between benefitting from a growing desire to own newsstand versions of comics and artificially creating that desire through the spread of unsupported information and/or misinformation. If those in the former group are not trying to reinforce the unsupported perception created by the latter, I don't necessarily think that they are doing anything wrong.

Absolutely correct. 

The first claim...that people are "besmirching" Chuck for his inaccurate information...is not analogous to the second claim...that said people are benefitting from selling newsstand copies at a premium. One is not related to the other, other than superficially as "having to do with newsstand books." Outside of that, those two claims have absolutely nothing to do with one another.

It is an illogical analogy to attempt to draw, and an irrational conclusion to which to leap.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, Marwood & I said:

During my completist years I attempted to get a full set of ASM newsstands up to issue 700. I had a friend in the US to help me from ASM issue 690, and he got me the Superior Spideys up to issue 20 when the newsstands then stopped. My experience was that the later issues (500-700) were nigh on impossible to find. I searched for years and never managed to get certain issues (e.g. ASM #694 for which some on these boards have offered $500 bounties).

I spent a lot of time gathering info on newsstands and found that, whilst it was clear that the print run reduced significantly year by year up to the point of cancelltion, I never found that key expert who had the figures.

Many of Chucks claims seem to be generalisations, but the spirit of his argument is sound in my experience, i.e. newsstands become harder to find as you move up the years. Because he is a business man, Chuck knows that a late modern newsstand exists in comparably tiny quantities. He knows that if you look up ebay for, say, ASM #694 or 559, you will not find it. He also knows that the mad collector will pay a ridiculous premium for it. This is why, right or wrong, his newsstand prices are eye watering. One day, people (e.g. mad completists) probably will start to pay $100 or more for a newsstand copy of an ASM book on which the direct sells for $5.

I know nothing about Spawn. But the newsstand position interests me, so I have dived in here. I looked up Spawn #1 on Ebay. 346 results and I counted over 100 directs before I hit a newsstand. At the London Fair on Sunday, multiples of Spawn #1 directs. No newsstands. So whether Chuck is right or wrong, the actual process of trying to find the book bears out his overall position. Yes, you will find a Spawn newsstand. But will you in 5 or 10 years time?

I challenge anyone reading this to put together an ASM newsstand run of 600-700. See you in 10 years time.

I personally put information out on these boards to try to draw out experts who have the answers to my questions (see my threads on Pence, L Miller, 1999 Newsstand Price Variants, Early Marvel Font Variants etc). I never say I have the definitive answers. Only that my research has shown X and that ties in with Y so unless anyone knows better....and I end with 'happy to be proven wrong'. Too many people on these boards talk in certainties. Chuck is a recognised industry figure with an amazing comic history behind him. Lazyboy is a bloke on a chat forum. If I had to put my money on who knows the most, I would probably pick Lazyboy. I have spoken to countless dealers over 30 years. I mention a comic thing that interests me and they start to lecture me. I fire a question or two back - civil and friendly - and they clam up, when they realise you know more than them. It's natural for dealers to do that - they want to impress you. 

Chuck has ventured a set of % data for newsstand print runs. My collecting experience generally bears out his position. Does anyone have actual industry data to disprove his general position? I don't, which is why I try to avoid pounding everyone into submission who poses an alternative position.

 

 

It is not up to anyone to disprove Chuck's numbers. Chuck is the one making the claim; it's Chuck's responsibility to prove his case.

That said...when you're talking about ASM #559 or #694, you're talking about a situation that is light years (metaphorically) and decades (literally) removed from the problems being discussed here.

For better or for much worse, the "1:X" concept has taken on a very specific, defined meaning in comics, and that is "retailer incentive ordering ratios."

Trying to shoehorn that term, and those meanings, into other areas is ignorance to the point of negligence. 

It's like saying "well, Superman #1 (1939) had three printings, and the third printing is a 1:50 version of the first." Or "The October edition of Marvel Comics #1 is a 1:100 version of the November edition."

It's a misuse of the idea.

The issue isn't that (as you perceive it) "too many people on these boards talk in certainties." The issue is that too many people are mortally offended that anyone would dare challenge anything they say, to the point of making it a personal mission of theirs to create trouble for those that do...which offendedness is on full display in this very thread. 

Can you imagine how stunted scientific research and development is becoming with those types of attitudes..? Too much ego, not enough humility.

[Get Marwood & I]

5 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

It is not up to anyone to disprove Chuck's numbers. Chuck is the one making the claim; it's Chuck's responsibility to prove his case.

That said...when you're talking about ASM #559 or #694, you're talking about a situation that is light years (metaphorically) and decades (literally) removed from the problems being discussed here.

For better or for much worse, the "1:X" concept has taken on a very specific, defined meaning in comics, and that is "retailer incentive ordering ratios."

Trying to shoehorn that term, and those meanings, into other areas is ignorance to the point of negligence. 

It's like saying "well, Superman #1 (1939) had three printings, and the third printing is a 1:50 version of the first." Or "The October edition of Marvel Comics #1 is a 1:100 version of the November edition."

It's a misuse of the idea.

The issue isn't that (as you perceive it) "too many people on these boards talk in certainties." The issue is that too many people are mortally offended that anyone would dare challenge anything they say, to the point of making it a personal mission of theirs to create trouble for those that do...which offendedness is on full display in this very thread. 

Can you imagine how stunted scientific research and development is becoming with those types of attitudes..? Too much ego, not enough humility.

I'll respond fully tomorrow Rock, as I disagree with everything you've said. It's late over here and I need my beauty sleep ?