Is Mylar really healthy for paper (comics) preservation? even some archivist not! 3 3

[Buzzetta]

At a certain point... trying to preserve what was never intended to be preserved becomes a bit cost prohibitive if not a bit nuts.

 

I have news for everyone.  Your copy of Avengers will outlast you in that current bag and board you have it in.

[oakman29]

I wish I knew what the heck to do with my comics anyway.

[Logan510]

3 hours ago, oakman29 said:

I wish I knew what the heck to do with my comics anyway.

How about read them for a change 

[oakman29]

16 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

How about read them for a change 

[lizards2]

5 hours ago, Logan510 said:

9 hours ago, oakman29 said:

I wish I knew what the heck to do with my comics anyway.

How about read them for a change 

Now...., let's not be hasty....., 

[Brandon Shepherd]

Speaking of reading, I can't believe I just read all 4 pages of this thread. Is this a Bizzarro thread? Not just in terms of content, but also in punctuation.  I not store books in mylar... I also half expected bitcoin to appear somewhere after page 3. 

[jcjames]

2 minutes ago, Brando- said:

Speaking of reading, I can't believe I just read all 4 pages of this thread. Is this a Bizzarro thread? Not just in terms of content, but also in punctuation.  I not store books in mylar... I also half expected bitcoin to appear somewhere after page 3. 

I no store bitcoin in mylar because I technical analysis it the fundamentals of past market.

 

[lizards2]

27 minutes ago, jcjames said:

31 minutes ago, Brando- said:

Speaking of reading, I can't believe I just read all 4 pages of this thread. Is this a Bizzarro thread? Not just in terms of content, but also in punctuation.  I not store books in mylar... I also half expected bitcoin to appear somewhere after page 3. 

I no store bitcoin in mylar because I technical analysis it the fundamentals of past market.

Come on guys - English as a second language - cut him some slack on that.

[jcjames]

9 minutes ago, lizards2 said:

Come on guys - English as a second language - cut him some slack on that.

Yeah, normally stuff like that is overlooked, but the insistence that he knows more than the Library of Congress archivists kinda begs a little extra poking.

 

ETA: Plus I had to tie in the poking going on in a different thread

Edited March 11, 2018 by jcjames

[Max Carnage]

3 minutes ago, lizards2 said:

Come on guys - English as a second language - cut him some slack on that.

My thoughts exactly.  At first I was thinking Bizarro thread but now we know it’s his second language.  Welcome to the boards Spooncomic but some advice would be to listen less to your “expert” who is still absent from the thread and more to the knowledgeable members who are here and willing to share their knowledge. 

[Brandon Shepherd]

28 minutes ago, lizards2 said:

Come on guys - English as a second language - cut him some slack on that.

 

19 minutes ago, Max Carnage said:

My thoughts exactly.  At first I was thinking Bizarro thread but now we know it’s his second language.  Welcome to the boards Spooncomic but some advice would be to listen less to your “expert” who is still absent from the thread and more to the knowledgeable members who are here and willing to share their knowledge. 

I see that now, on page 3 the OP mentioned residing in Costa Rica. Still, this is a strange thread, going against not only the Library of Congress but also the knowledge and experience of several members who have shared their experiences here.

[awe4one]

I have comics I bagged and boarded in the late 80s.  They are as fresh today as when I boarded them.  This whole fallacy of the comics degrade over time and need to change every 3-5 years is garbage.  I've bought multiple comics in yellowed bags but the comics within were great with white pages. This whole myth of the bags and board will harm your comics is greatly overstated.  Mylars are great...no doubt as you don't have to change the appearance of your issues when pulled out of the box when viewed in the bag. But as far as being better to protect the actual comic?  Hype to sell either more bag/boards or Mylars.

Jim

[lizards2]

2 hours ago, awe4one said:

I have comics I bagged and boarded in the late 80s.  They are as fresh today as when I boarded them.  This whole fallacy of the comics degrade over time and need to change every 3-5 years is garbage.  I've bought multiple comics in yellowed bags but the comics within were great with white pages. This whole myth of the bags and board will harm your comics is greatly overstated.  Mylars are great...no doubt as you don't have to change the appearance of your issues when pulled out of the box when viewed in the bag. But as far as being better to protect the actual comic?  Hype to sell either more bag/boards or Mylars.

Jim

Same here, but I've lived in ideal storage conditions since 1976.  

I've also noticed that if you have unused bags from back then, they are clean, fine and clear.  My hypothesis is that the comics cause the bags to yellow.  And the worse the storage conditions, the worse the bags, boards and comics deteriorate.

[OrangeCrush]

On 3/10/2018 at 5:05 PM, Buzzetta said:

At a certain point... trying to preserve what was never intended to be preserved becomes a bit cost prohibitive if not a bit nuts.

 

I have news for everyone.  Your copy of Avengers will outlast you in that current bag and board you have it in.

Yes it will, but the difference between poly-bags and Mylar is SIGNIFICANT to say the least. First off, the poly-bags that most everyone sells are "blown" films, affording very low density and dimensional stability. Mylar is an extruded film that is simultaneously stretched in two directions to give it maximum strength. In fact, it resists penetration by gases, such as oxygen, 300 TIMES more than the poly-bags. As for strength and stability: its also several hundred times stronger and more stable. Here are some numbers taken directly from Gerber:

Advantages of Mylar Type D over plastics like Polypropylene or most poly-bags:

1 - Resistance to diffusion of gases like oxygen, carbon dioxide, sulfur dioxide, etc. is 350 times greater. This is especially important to people who live in places like Los Angeles Basin or California's Central Valley, places that basically have really high levels of atmospheric pollution. 77% of the population of California lives in counties with failing grades in regards to atmospheric pollution. So using Mylar over poly-bags will definitely make a big difference over the years for those people. 

2 - Permanence. There is no noticeable change in storage after 100 years compared to 2 to 5 years for most poly-bags. Not having to worry about ever having to replace a bag or board is one of the best aspects to using Mylar and Gerber's Half-Back or Full-Back boards. 

3 - Resistance to moisture, fungus, mold, mildew, acid, oils, grease, and solvents is "excellent" compared to "fair" for most poly-bags. This is especially important to people who live in places like Florida, places that have high levels of humidity. And this isn't something you have to wait 25+ years to see a difference from. Humidly can cause serious damage to things like comics, electronics, photo equipment, etc. in very short order. If I lived in a place that had frequently high humidity, I would absolutely be using Mylar as well as other things to help combat the humidity levels. 

4 - Strength and creep resistance is 10 times that of polyethylene, one-third the strength of steel. - Mylar just offers VASTLY superior protection.

5 - Volatile Additions - Mylar contains no dangerous plasticizers, slip additives, surface coatings, antioxidants, acid-hydrolysis compared to other commonly used plastics. 

 

Personally, the main reason why I use Mylar over poly-bags for most of my comics isn't even any of the reasons just listed. The main reason why I use Mylar for most of my comics is the comics look VASTLY superior than they do when stored in poly-bags. When I go from looking at comics stored in Mylar to comics stored in poly-bags, its like looking through a dirty window. The artwork is one of my single favorite aspects of comics in general so at least for me, the CRYSTAL clear view that Mylar has compared to Poly-bags makes all the difference in the world to me. All of the advantages Mylar has over poly-bags is just a bonus in my book. As for the price, if you buy Gerber Mylites in bulk (1000 at a time to get the best price), it makes a significant difference. You can get Mylites2's for 16 cents apiece and Mylites4's for 29 cents apiece. Same is true for Half-Back and Full-Back boards. You can get Half-Back boards for 12-13 cents apiece and Full-Back boards for 15-16 cents apiece. So your basically talking about roughly 29 cents apiece for Mylites2's with Half-Back boards to roughly 45 cents apiece for Mylites4's with Full-Back Boards. I only use Mylites4's for a very small percentage of my comics so I am usually spending around 29 cents apiece to store my comics in Mylar. I can't speak for others, but I have no problem spending 30 cents on the bag and board for a comic that has a value of over $10.00. And of course you have the fact that you will never have to replace those bags and boards, which is not the case with poly-bags. I have already had to replace many of the poly-bags for comics I purchased over 10 years ago. 

[newshane]

On 3/12/2018 at 12:09 PM, awe4one said:

This whole fallacy of the comics degrade over time and need to change every 3-5 years is garbage. 

Ever heard of the second law of thermodynamics? 

[Peaky]

On 16/07/2017 at 4:47 PM, oakman29 said:

To the OP Arent you creating more moisture by not allowing your books to basically breath? I mean you have them in a Mylar,then box, then a plastic container? 

Yes and fluctuations in temperature will lead to condensation somewhere along the line...

[Peaky]

Re Newtons rings...

Be good to know if the problem is 

Comic v inner encapsulation

or

Inner sleeve v hard plastic casing

I suspect the latter, but that's just an assumption

I think there must be a slight moisture or oiliness issue.

The CGC should investigate and confirm, in my opinion.

It shouldn't be hard as clearly one part of the 'process' or materials is lacking.

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2018 by Peaky
Correction

[musicmeta]

It's all up to you after you've research the info on what you think how best to store your comic books.  I use Mylar for all my good books and have never had an issue.  I personally think it's the best way to store comics.
  

[ThreeSeas]

Like a few others here, I have had and still have a whole lot of books stored in Mylar - since the 1980's, and they look just like they did when I first put them in bags. I also have the bagged comics stored right along with the non-bagged ones in cedar boxes that I built in the 80's.

I used cedar for my boxes back then because it was mentioned, I think in Overstreet, as the ideal storage box material for comics. I think at the time that acid free cardboard boxes were just coming into the comic market. Anyways I have not kept my boxes in ideal conditions until a couple of years ago. I had them sitting in my enclosed non-climate controlled  front room for probably 15 years or so. The books do not appear to have suffered because of that, not that I can see anyways. Even the raw books look like they did when I bought them at my LCS 30+ years ago.

My LCS owner back then told me not to use Mylar as it would damage the comics because they would get stuck to it he said. I told him that all the research I did was contrary to that. I went ahead and mail ordered a few sample Mylars including something called a  Timelok I think, along with a couple of thousand mylites. I think the mylites were going for around a hundred bucks for a thousand of them at the time. I'll have to check and see what they are in today's market. Anyways the cheap mylites have been good all these years, they still look the same.

As for the other types of bags that are not Mylar, any time I bought comics in those I would then use those bags to go on top of my boxes to keep the dust off as my boxes all have open tops.

[newshane]

3 hours ago, ThreeSeas said:

I used cedar for my boxes back then because it was mentioned, I think in Overstreet, as the ideal storage box material for comics.

This is actually one of the worst materials to use for storage. 

I've written extensively on the topic. If anyone is interested in learning the results of my research, they can read all about it by clicking on the spoiler tags below. I've used a ton of professional sources to write an article on comic storage materials and methods. I hope you enjoy the read. 

Spoiler

 

I've spent quite a lot of time over the last few days researching the optimal storage conditions for my CGC collection. Once I complete the Spawn run, I intend to entomb the collection for the long-haul. At first, I considered custom wooden filing cabinets. Some of these cabinets were made out of genuine hardwoods treated with various stains and sealants; other companies used particleboard with a melamine finish. One company even lined the drawers of the cabinets with cedar. This was done in an effort to guard against pest infestation.

 

At first, I saw a great deal of promise in some of the "wooden" products. I even researched the best specie of wood to use. After spending so much time researching wood, I eventually learned that the material is NOT IDEAL for the long-term storage of paper! Along with nearly any of the associated finishing materials or coatings, wood is responsible for a fair amount of off-gassing. Overtime, this can lead to damage. Dense woods, such as oak, are especially prone to off-gassing. The same is true for particleboard. Ditto for sealants and other chemicals used to finish wood.

 

Remember, your encapsulated comics are slightly vulnerable to the atmosphere. As proven in an earlier experiment documented in my journal, we know that the inner well of the slab is vulnerable to water penetration. In other words, the inner well is not COMPLETELY sealed, even if you do have to use scissors or an Exacto knife to cut through the plastic. Air exchange is possible. Your comic still breathes. So over many, many years, WHAT exactly, is the quality of the air your comics are breathing?

 

If your comics are stored in wooden cabinetry, they are susceptible to the oils and elements that leach off the wood and into the air.

 

After using the board's search function to peruse threads with useful information on the topic, I learned a great deal. I would like to put most of this is one place, and I may add to this in the future. So here we go...

 

WHY WOOD IS BAD:

 

Do not use wooden shelving or cabinetry for paper and film materials.

Wooden shelving, particularly shelving made of particle board and plywood,

gives off acidic gases that can contaminate and accelerate the deterioration of paper

and film. Paint and shellacs also give off gases that can contaminate documents and

hasten their destruction. Moreover, wooden shelving is flammable and that is another

great danger to paper and film documents.

 

- Source: Tennessee State Archives

 

Harmful acids and other substances, however, are emitted by wood, wood composites, and some sealants and adhesives. Although the levels of emissions are highest initially, in most cases volatiles are present for the life of the materials. To avoid potential damage to collections, storage furniture made of wood or wood products should be avoided.

 

- Source: Northeast Document Conservation Center

 

...paper and textiles will be harmed by the oils and fumes in cedar chests, says Museum of the Rockies registrar.

 

- Source: Montana State University

 

STEEL WITH A BAKED ENAMEL FINISH - THE EXPERTS SLIGHTLY DISAGREE:

 

Use heavy-gauge steel shelving and cabinetry with stable baked enamel finish for paper and film materials.

 

- Source: Tennessee State Archives

 

The key word there was stable and that's where the pros disagree. As it turns out, not all baked enamel finishes are created the same way. Read what the Northeast Document Center had to say about the topic:

 

Questions, however, have been raised about the possibility that the baked enamel coating may give off formaldehyde and other volatiles harmful to collections if it has not been properly baked (not long enough at high enough temperatures). This concern is especially serious when collections are stored on book shelves in an area that is enclosed or has poor air circulation, or are stored in closed furniture such as map cases, file cabinet drawers, and book cases with solid doors.

 

Because of this concern about off-gassing, baked enamel furniture is no longer widely recommended unless it has been properly baked. For us to be certain that it has, the furniture must be tested. Testing should comply with ASTM (American Society of Testing Materials) E-595. 1 This testing requires the use of sophisticated analytical equipment.

 

Sounds to me like it would be easier to go with a different material.

 

POWDER-COATED STEEL IS A BETTER OPTION:

 

Steel storage furniture with various powder coatings appears to avoid the off-gassing problems associated with baked enamel. Powder coatings of finely divided, synthetic polymer materials are fused onto the steel. Testing done thus far indicates that the coatings are chemically stable, present minimal threat of volatile evocation, and so are safe for the storage of valuable materials.

 

- Source: Northeast Document Conservation Center

 

ANODIZED ALUMINUM IS THE BEST:

 

It is lighter than steel and very strong. No off-gassing at all. But it's more than likely going to be cost-prohibitive. As a result, I think that power-coated steel is the material that would provide the greatest bang for the buck and will probably be the material I choose for my storage cabinets.

 

SO WHAT IF I'M ALREADY INVESTED IN WOOD? SHOULD I FREAK OUT?

 

No. There is a solution. It's a product called Marvelseal and it's available from this website. Below is a description from the site:

 

The MARVELSEAL® family of Barriers is the Industry Standard in protection of Art and Artifacts during shipment and storage. All barriers offer excellent protection against the transmission of water vapor and other atmospheric gasses. All are economical, flexible and easy to fabricate…and are ideal for lining the inside of shipping crates and exhibit cases and for lining shelves with the objective of eliminating off-gassing from exposed wooden surfaces.

 

The best Marvelseal product seems to be 1311, which is a lamination of Cloth/Foil/Poly and offers excellent MVTR protection and is ideal for easily attaching to wooden crates or shelving using wood glue or other adhesives. This seems to be the ideal solution for the concerned collector who is already using wood cabinets.

 

WHAT IF I STILL INSIST ON WOOD CABS? HOW CAN I MINIMIZE THE POTENTIAL FOR LONG-TERM DAMAGE?

 

1. Use a raw wood finish for the interiors of the drawers.

2. Use a low-acidic, soft wood like poplar, which doesn't off-gas as much as oak or other harder species of wood. I'd use poplar for the drawers and a harder wood for the exterior. After all, you want your cabinet to resist dings and damage over the years. Poplar and pine dent up fairly easily.

3. Line the interior of the drawers with the aforementioned Marvelseal product.

 

DOES ANY OF THIS REALLY MATTER? AM I TAKING IT TOO FAR?

 

I probably am. But I'm approaching the subject from the viewpoint of someone who has the utmost concern for the details. I think that people, myself included, ultimately spend too much time thinking about these sort of micro-conditions. After all, comics from the Edgar Church collection were simply stored in tall, vertical stacks and without the benefit of all the plastics and acid-free materials available to the modern collection. Perhaps we do over-think stuff, but studying about the best ways to conserve a collection has given me a lot of unexpected joy. It's part of the fun of the hobby, at least to me.

 

* * * * *

 

There are many other factors to consider when building the prime storage area for your CGC slabs. We just now covered the appropriate kind of material for the cabinets. We've talked about the dangers of off-gassing. In the next post, I will discuss how I intend to "accessorize" my cabinets in a way that will further protect against atmospheric pollutants, temperature and humidity fluctuations, light, theft, and insect intrusion.

 

Bottom line is that wood is not the best material to use in your cabinets if you intend to store paper for the very long haul (measured in decades, not years). Power-coated steel or anodized aluminum aren't nearly as beautiful or as romantic as wood, but the alloys offer the greatest long-term protection.

 

More on this later...

 

and I wrote lately regarding Neil Gaiman. I will have a Gaiman-related announcement for you soon. I'm really pumped.

Below is the second part of a series of posts on building the perfect storage cabinet...

 

* * * * *

 

STEEL - IT STILL AIN'T PERFECT! SOME CONSIDERATIONS...

 

The serious collector should store his or her collection in a room where the temperature and humidity are under strict control. After researching the use of steel as a construction material in cabinets used to store comics, I discovered that it's possible for condensation to develop inside of a closed steel cabinet. However, this largely applies to steel cabinets that are stored in basements, sheds, attics, or any other area that isn't climate-controlled.

 

Once again, I quote the Northeast Document Conservation Center :

 

Condensation can be a problem in closed steel cabinets when the relative humidity where the cabinets are stored fluctuates.Condensation can result in rusting or mold growth in cabinets. For this reason, conditions in closed cabinets should be monitored. This is most easily accomplished by the use of dial hygrometers or paper-based humidity indicator cards. These devices do not have a high degree of accuracy, but they are sufficient to indicate problematic conditions. If possible, the use of closed steel cabinets should be avoided unless the cabinets are well ventilated or the relative humidity is closely controlled and monitored.

 

After considering the situation, I think that a "sealed" metal cabinet should be fine as long as it's stored in a climate-controlled area. Building vents into strategic locations along the back of the cabinet is another option, especially if they are designed in a way that allows for quick and convenient opening and closing. If nothing else, simply opening the cab for an hour or so every day or every other day should also do the trick. You could also improve the interior environment of the steel shelves by using the Marvelseal product mentioned in part one of this series.

 

The key is to ensure stability in regards to temperature and humidity!

 

You also want to make sure that the temp inside of the cabinet is equal to or greater than the ambient temperature of the room. Condensation could happen if the interior somehow got colder than the rest of the room.

 

What are some other ways to protect against possible fluctuations in temperature and humidity?

 

1. Make sure that your cabinet is at least a few inches or more off the ground. This helps ensure that the contents on the bottom shelves aren't subjected to cold floors and/or flooding.

 

2. Don't store your cabinet on a concrete floor.

 

3. Avoid placing the cabinet close to exterior windows or heating and air vents along the floor - places where the room temperature is almost certain to vary. If possible, try to avoid placing the cab against a wall along the exterior of your house. These are all examples of "micro-climates" that can develop inside our homes.

 

4. Don't place the cabinet along a wall stuffed with water pipes! If a leak happens...

 

5. Use the appropriate mix of fans, air-cleaners, and de-humidifiers to ensure the circulation of clean air.

 

Bottom line? Make sure you monitor the interior conditions of the cabinet. There shouldn't be any problems at all if the steel cabinets are stored in a place with climate control, but a good measure of common sense, and a built-in vent, can make all the difference!

 

* I thought about the problem of dust or other air-contaminants entering the cab through the vent. While there are some solutions to this problem, I don't think it will be a problem for CGC slabs sealed and stored in Mylar bags with archival tape.

 

* * * * *

 

Next up...should I store my slabs flat, upright, or spine-down? Get the real low-down, coming soon...

Now that I've discussed the proper storage environment, I'd like to provide some information in regards to storage methods.

 

Should I store my slabs flat, upright, or spine-down?

 

The CGC started encapsulating comics after the turn of the millennium, so the very oldest "slabs" are now around 14 years-old. The truth is that we have little to no true empirical data on the subject. In short, we still don't have enough evidence to suggest that one method is better than another. However, we do know quite a bit about what happens to raw comics overtime and can make guesses based on these observations.

 

Most of our raw collections are probably bagged and boarded and stored vertically in cardboard boxes or filing cabinets. I've personally never witnesses a bagged and boarded comic suffer direct damage from being stored upright, as long as the comics were packed snugly enough to prevent them from falling over inside of the box.

 

So is it safe to assume that our slabs are safe from damage if they are stored vertically and upright?

 

The jury is still out on this one. I don't seek to make a definitive declaration on the matter; as I stated earlier, it's just too early to really tell. Instead, I hope to offer information from various sources.

 

Some sources claim that long-term upright storage will allow gravity to exert downward pressure on the staples of a comic. Other experts, like Joey at CFP Comics and Services, believe that comics covers with an overhang are especially susceptible to the long-term effects of gravity. As a result, some people suggest storing slabs flat. Others recommend stashing them away with the spine of the comic facing the floor.

 

So what does the CGC say about the matter?

 

In short, they support the traditional vertical storage method:

 

"We suggest that all graded comics be stored as you would any other comic, standing upright in an archival safe comic box in a cool dry place."

 

- Wm. Eric Downton, CGC Receiving Manager

 

What do professional book conservationists, libraries, and museums say about it?

 

Well, it depends on the size of the book you are storing.

 

To avoid damaging bindings, books need to be shelved upright and supported. House very large or heavy volumes lying flat, because upright storage can result in heavy books pulling away from their bindings.

 

- Northeast Document Conservation Center

 

They also point out that storing books with the spine-down is far, far preferable to storing them with the spine-up, although they seem to suggest spine-down storage is preferable only if "moving or rearranging the books is not possible."

 

...store volumes with the spine down (storing a book with the spine up may cause the text to pull out of the binding due to its weight).

 

- Northeast Document Conservation Center

 

The expert consensus seems to be that it's perfectly acceptable to vertically store comics and slabs in the upright position. It's also okay to store slabs flat, because the hard outer well, in concert with the inner well, prevents the type of spine-roll that can sometimes occur when comics are stored flat and in vertical stacks. The following summary from panelology.com is so well-written that I've decided to quote it below verbatim:

 

The Northeast Document Conservation Center (a non-profit regional conservation center in the United States, founded in 1973 and counting amongst its clients the Boston Public Library and Harvard University) advised that although vertical storage in office files or in upright flip-top archival document storage boxes is acceptable for legal-sized or smaller documents, any objects larger than 15" x 9" should be stored flat.

 

This is due to the pull forces which documents stored in an upright position are subject to, and it is safe to assume that what is best practice for larger size documents works out well for comic books as well.

 

So what's the final word?

 

During my research, I discovered that most sources, including the CGC itself, recommend the traditional method of storing comics, and slabs, upright. I found nothing to suggest that a slab would be harmed by storing them flat, although I'd be careful about how high I piled my stacks. It's important to keep in mind that the slabs towards the bottom of the stack will bear a majority of the loaded weight. I've also discovered nothing wrong with storing slabs spine-down, although I still struggle with the logic used by proponents of this method. Yes, the spine is the strongest part of the book and could probably do a better job at resisting the effects of gravity over-time. But isn't it still susceptible to "gravitational" damage, assuming that such a thing really happens in the first place? I think it's too early to tell.

 

Bottom line? There is probably nothing wrong with storing the slabs upright, flat, or spine-down. Whichever method you choose, I think it's more important to handle and store them carefully. The idea is to handle them as little as possible and to protect them from jostling or any sort of vibration.

 

* * * * *

 

Coming up next, I will offer a few final words on storage mediums and methods.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2018 by newshane