MARVEL GENERATIONS: A new beginning, or finally the end of Marvel 1 1

[maidenmate91]

9 minutes ago, revat said:

Like Black Lighting or Black Goliath.  Brown Spider?

Ultimate Spider? Spider-kid?  Kid Spider?  Kid Venom?  Red Spider is my favorite one, but that's pretty close to Scarlet Spider.  Web Master? Super Web? Shadow Spider?

Oh no worries, it wouldn't bother me. I'm just saying it's not very PC you know... certain crowds might go beserk After all black lightning, and black goliath are old mantles from a better time. People weren't so sensitive back then. Perhaps a specific spider name could be used? 

[JTLarsen]

27 minutes ago, maidenmate91 said:

Oh no worries, it wouldn't bother me. I'm just saying it's not very PC you know... certain crowds might go beserk After all black lightning, and black goliath are old mantles from a better time. People weren't so sensitive back then. Perhaps a specific spider name could be used? 

In what way was it a better time? Maybe the "people" who weren't so sensitive back then were a little more preoccupied with how much things were worse for them back then, like income inequality, lending discrimination, disparity in life-spans, job discrimination, and little things like that. Maybe, just maybe, the people who you have decided are too sensitive--because they don't want their heroes to be LITERALLY defined by their skin color--are actually able to give this kind of thing a LITTLE bit of attention today because things are actually marginally better today. (And, btw, there were people who called out the names of Black Lightning and Black Goliath then, too. But maybe you think things were better then because those people lacked access to the kinds of platforms where they could be heard).

The irony here is that the people on this thread who seem the most sensitive, and the closest to going berserk, are those whose biggest problem seems to be that their comic book characters aren't being done the way they want. Ultimate Snowflake.

[maidenmate91]

4 minutes ago, JTLarsen said:

In what way was it a better time? Maybe the "people" who weren't so sensitive back then were a little more preoccupied with how much things were worse for them back then, like income inequality, lending discrimination, disparity in life-spans, job discrimination, and little things like that. Maybe, just maybe, the people who you have decided are too sensitive--because they don't want their heroes to be LITERALLY defined by their skin color--are actually able to give this kind of thing a LITTLE bit of attention today because things are actually marginally better today. (And, btw, there were people who called out the names of Black Lightning and Black Goliath then, too. But maybe you think things were better then because those people lacked access to the kinds of platforms where they could be heard).

The irony here is that the people on this thread who seem the most sensitive, and the closest to going berserk, are those whose biggest problem seems to be that their comic book characters aren't being done the way they want. Ultimate Snowflake.

Dude relax.... way too serious, I'm not going to turn this into a political debate. It's a comic forum, at ease soldier. No one is a snowflake, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[JTLarsen]

3 minutes ago, maidenmate91 said:

Dude relax.... way too serious, I'm not going to turn this into a political debate. It's a comic forum, at ease soldier. No one is a snowflake, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

You already turned it into a political debate. You literally said things were better when black people weren't complaining about how they're represented in pop culture. I appreciate that you're trying to de-escalate now, but please don't do so by suggesting it wasn't already political. Art is political. Culture is political. Dismissing the concerns of disenfranchised people as being "PC" or "too sensitive" is political. I'm not trying to start a fight, just trying to make the point you ultimately landed on--everyone's entitled to their opinion, so let's try to respect the opinions of those who raise concerns about how they and others are portrayed. Better yet, let's try to hear them out rather than dismiss them.

Now...back to comics! I feel a Chris Claremont segue coming on...

[maidenmate91]

4 minutes ago, JTLarsen said:

You already turned it into a political debate. You literally said things were better when black people weren't complaining about how they're represented in pop culture. I appreciate that you're trying to de-escalate now, but please don't do so by suggesting it wasn't already political. Art is political. Culture is political. Dismissing the concerns of disenfranchised people as being "PC" or "too sensitive" is political. I'm not trying to start a fight, just trying to make the point you ultimately landed on--everyone's entitled to their opinion, so let's try to respect the opinions of those who raise concerns about how they and others are portrayed. Better yet, let's try to hear them out rather than dismiss them.

Now...back to comics! I feel a Chris Claremont segue coming on...

I'm sorry, would you care to point me in the spot in my response where I said "literally" what is in bold above?

[JTLarsen]

25 minutes ago, JTLarsen said:

black lightning, and black goliath are old mantles from a better time. People weren't so sensitive back then

 

[maidenmate91]

4 minutes ago, JTLarsen said:

 

Lmao nice try man, good effort. I don't see how stating I liked the mantles of the heroes mentioned above as me slamming the race. Also btw  that's not what "literally" means.

Have you heard the one about the man who assumes things? 

I don't see the word black as a label or social stigma, I personally think it automatically makes the subject 10x more badass! Thus me saying simpler times. 

 

[maidenmate91]

This thread is tearing me apart!!!

[JTLarsen]

21 minutes ago, maidenmate91 said:

Lmao nice try man, good effort. I don't see how stating I liked the mantles of the heroes mentioned above as me slamming the race. Also btw  that's not what "literally" means.

Have you heard the one about the man who assumes things? 

I don't see the word black as a label or social stigma, I personally think it automatically makes the subject 10x more badass! Thus me saying simpler times. 

 

Keep digging.

[Mercury Man]

June

Amazing Spiderman:  Rank 15,   units 59,464

Spiderman (Miles):     Rank 81, units  29,428

Marvel, remind me again why you want Miles Morales in this Universe?

Do you know that Wonder Woman Tasmanian Devil Special outsold Totally Awesome Hulk?  The Hulk is one of the more recognized Marvel characters in the World, and you are not even in the Top 100 with this book?

 Remind me again Marvel why Cho is replacing Banner?

[maidenmate91]

11 minutes ago, Mercury Man said:

June

Amazing Spiderman:  Rank 15,   units 59,464

Spiderman (Miles):     Rank 81, units  29,428

Marvel, remind me again why you want Miles Morales in this Universe?

Do you know that Wonder Woman Tasmanian Devil Special outsold Totally Awesome Hulk?  The Hulk is one of the more recognized Marvel characters in the World, and you are not even in the Top 100 with this book?

 Remind me again Marvel why Cho is replacing Banner?

 

[AnthonyTheAbyss]

1 hour ago, Mercury Man said:

June

Amazing Spiderman:  Rank 15,   units 59,464

Spiderman (Miles):     Rank 81, units  29,428

Marvel, remind me again why you want Miles Morales in this Universe?

That's an unfair comparison.  Amazing Spiderman will beat almost any other book...not just Spiderman (Miles).

Everybody agrees Marvel (and comics in general) went overboard with all the diversity/gender equality characters and they need to undo a lot of it.

Having said that, some of it is actually needed to keep growing.  Miles Morales is a great character, X-23 is pretty awesome, and making Ms. Marvel the most powerful hero in the MCU is a step in the right direction.

Edited July 25, 2017 by AnthonyTheAbyss
Clarify most power "hero"

[Mercury Man]

39 minutes ago, AnthonyTheAbyss said:

That's an unfair comparison.  Amazing Spiderman will beat almost any other book...not just Spiderman (Miles).

Everybody agrees Marvel (and comics in general) went overboard with all the diversity/gender equality characters and they need to undo a lot of it.

Having said that, some of it is actually needed to keep growing.  Miles Morales is a great character, X-23 is pretty awesome, and making Ms. Marvel the most powerful hero in the MCU is a step in the right direction.

Diversity is good.  Change can be good.  Marvel fudged them both up, though.  This Generations initiative looks like more of the same. 

[revat]

39 minutes ago, AnthonyTheAbyss said:

That's an unfair comparison.  Amazing Spiderman will beat almost any other book...not just Spiderman (Miles).

Everybody agrees Marvel (and comics in general) went overboard with all the diversity/gender equality characters and they need to undo a lot of it.

Having said that, some of it is actually needed to keep growing.  Miles Morales is a great character, X-23 is pretty awesome, and making Ms. Marvel the most powerful hero in the MCU is a step in the right direction.

I think the issue they were pointing out is that asm numbers are down too.  Two spidery titles selling for less than asm was selling.

 But seriously Cho hulk sucks, and I really liked Cho before he became hulk.  

[kimik]

9 hours ago, AnthonyTheAbyss said:

That's an unfair comparison.  Amazing Spiderman will beat almost any other book...not just Spiderman (Miles).

Everybody agrees Marvel (and comics in general) went overboard with all the diversity/gender equality characters and they need to undo a lot of it.

Having said that, some of it is actually needed to keep growing.  Miles Morales is a great character, X-23 is pretty awesome, and making Ms. Marvel the most powerful hero in the MCU is a step in the right direction.

Wow. Walking Dead sells way more than Amazing Spider-Man does.

Looking at the sales charts, Marvel only makes hay with #1s and the plethora of store variants. ASM is their top selling regular issue. That is horrible. 

As a whole, the comic industry is hurting. Take a look at the numbers - only one ongoing title is selling in the 90,000 - 100,000 per issue range consistnently (Batman) and the second highest seller on a consistent basis is WD in the 70,000ish range. 

On the flip side, I am surprised that Edge of Venmoverse #1 did not top 100,000 copies considering the plethora of store variants available. Is it a sign of Marvel overusing Venom already? Or, will that mean the minis will sell well if the movie is actually released?

Edited July 25, 2017 by kimik

[AnthonyTheAbyss]

41 minutes ago, kimik said:

As a whole, the comic industry is hurting. Take a look at the numbers - only one ongoing title is selling in the 90,000 - 100,000 per issue range consistnently (Batman) and the second highest seller on a consistent basis is WD in the 70,000ish range. 

True.  But the question is why?  We've seen the comic industry go to the edge of bankruptcy before (and pretty recently).  I think the people in charge saw this and they needed to do something to expand the base.  So they decided we needed more diversity and went too far (which we all agree that it wasn't/isn't successful).  They  up and its showing in the sales numbers.  But I don't think enough credit is given to them for trying.

 

Also don't forget that Marvel isn't exactly suffering because of these loss sales.  The cinematic universe is making money at a record pace.  Maybe, just maybe, the future of Marvel isn't focused or dependent on the comic sector as it once was.

 

This part is just my personal opinion...I really think the sales slump is due to a lack of superstar artists.  I'll buy the Asian Hulk if Jim Lee is drawing it.  I'll also buy Jane Foster Thor is McFarlane is drawing it.  Art is the most important part of a comic!

Edited July 25, 2017 by AnthonyTheAbyss
Too many butts

[revat]

1 hour ago, AnthonyTheAbyss said:

True.  But the question is why?  We've seen the comic industry go to the edge of bankruptcy before (and pretty recently).  I think the people in charge saw this and they needed to do something to expand the base.  So they decided we needed more diversity and went too far (which we all agree that it wasn't/isn't successful).  They  up and its showing in the sales numbers.  But I don't think enough credit is given to them for trying.

 

Also don't forget that Marvel isn't exactly suffering because of these loss sales.  The cinematic universe is making money at a record pace.  Maybe, just maybe, the future of Marvel isn't focused or dependent on the comic sector as it once was.

 

This part is just my personal opinion...I really think the sales slump is due to a lack of superstar artists.  I'll buy the Asian Hulk if Jim Lee is drawing it.  I'll also buy Jane Foster Thor is McFarlane is drawing it.  Art is the most important part of a comic!

I think the art has definitely suffered lately.  There are some good artists out there, but putting JRJR and Frank Miller and Humberto Ramos out on your main titles is pretty rough.... The problem is that the superstar cover artists (which is definitely a thing now) rarely do interior art on Marvel/DC comics.  They make a lot more money for less time just doing the covers.  And a lot of the more innovative artists are just doing independents now. 

As for the downfall of comics in terms of sales ... a myriad of things, each chipping away.  My non-comprehensive list.

1.  The slow death of print media.  Young people aren't growing up reading print, adults are reading less and less of it, which leads to...

2.  Rise in online media, which you might think would lead to digital sales of comics, BUT people might use Marvel Unlimited or wait for Comixology sales or free illegal sources. 

3.  A million more things to occupy our time (and our comic story consumption and our nerd dollars) including a million tv shows, books movies, at our fingertips, plus access to all the news, sports, politics, fine food, religion, anyone could ever want.  I think this is the big one.

4.  People don't go out to shop as much anymore.  I might be able to peruse online and buy comics I want, but for many people before (myself included), I"d just go to the LCS every month and buy 2 books I was 'subscribed' to and just look around on the new comic shelves for whatever looks interesting.  Straight Eye appeal, or what was recommended by the shop owner (who I knew and trusted).  Now if I subscribe online, I don't have to go into the store and shop or feel guilted into buy other stuff.

5.  The rising cost of most comics (especially from marvel/dc) has well outpaced inflation or the rise in the average wage in America for the last 20 years. 

6.  All the other actual comics stuff that makes people mad like renumbering, replacement heroes, trite story lines, nostalgia, reboots, #1's, variants

[rjrjr]

5 hours ago, kimik said:

Wow. Walking Dead sells way more than Amazing Spider-Man does.

Looking at the sales charts, Marvel only makes hay with #1s and the plethora of store variants. ASM is their top selling regular issue. That is horrible. 

As a whole, the comic industry is hurting. Take a look at the numbers - only one ongoing title is selling in the 90,000 - 100,000 per issue range consistnently (Batman) and the second highest seller on a consistent basis is WD in the 70,000ish range. 

On the flip side, I am surprised that Edge of Venmoverse #1 did not top 100,000 copies considering the plethora of store variants available. Is it a sign of Marvel overusing Venom already? Or, will that mean the minis will sell well if the movie is actually released?

Star Wars is Marvel's top selling ongoing title and has been since it started.  But, there are 2 imminent items that I believe are going to hurt their Star Wars line:

1) IDW is about to begin publishing an ongoing Star Wars title.  From initial reactions to the news, this will steal some of Marvel's thunder.  Can the market support 2 publishers of Star Wars comics?

2) Marvel is ramping up the number of books and variants for the Star Wars line.  They are going to milk this line until they drive away many of the collectors IMHO.

[Mercury Man]

Why the Marvel Cinematic Universe resembles nothing of their print Universe right now is plain stupidity.  It defies the logic of Marketing and Sales really.   Your movies are doing Billions of dollars.     A kid decides to check out a comic book store after he sees Captain America Civil War, and the comic books couldn't be farther from the movies in characters, tone, continuity etc.   Now granted they were not going to gain hundreds of thousands of new readers from the movies. But every little bit helps. 

[fastballspecial]

19 hours ago, AnthonyTheAbyss said:

 

21 hours ago, Mercury Man said:

June

Amazing Spiderman:  Rank 15,   units 59,464

Spiderman (Miles):     Rank 81, units  29,428

Marvel, remind me again why you want Miles Morales in this Universe?

That's an unfair comparison.  Amazing Spiderman will beat almost any other book...not just Spiderman (Miles).

Everybody agrees Marvel (and comics in general) went overboard with all the diversity/gender equality characters and they need to undo a lot of it.

Having said that, some of it is actually needed to keep growing.  Miles Morales is a great character, X-23 is pretty awesome, and making Ms. Marvel the most powerful hero in the MCU is a step in the right direction.

 

You had me till you got there. I don't see the justification for that. She can be more then relevant, but bringing her to that level would require more character depth, storyline and involvement in the entire MU which she isn't currently. All that said she may be after the movie appearances.