Those "plentiful" key issues... 1 1

[valiantman]

12 minutes ago, Aweandlorder said:

I think youre taking my words too personal friend.

Whoever thinks that AF15 is a common book to find EVERYWHERE is dumb. I stand by my words

Gotcha... thanks for the clarification.    

I assume Gatsby77 will be by later to cast his objection. 

[Knightsofold]

3 hours ago, Aweandlorder said:

Define "accessible"?

Available to everyone on eBay?

So all those who support that notion committed to the fact that eBay IS the official comic book market.

No

Accessible is ALL avenues of purchase; online, LCS, garage sales.. etc etc

The fact of the matter is that AF15 is ONLY common online BY PEOPLE WHO KNOW ITS WORTH. Dealers & flippers.

Now. So what, everyone asks, I have an internet connection and I can get AF15 shipped to my door, Im willing to pay the dealer price. cause eBay and auctions are an accurate reflection of the market.

OK. Good luck to you sir. Please escort yourself to the nearest exit and don't let the shillers hit you on your way out.

No. AF15 is not a common book. (DUH)

In fact, none of the LCS (remember those? you know, those comic book specialty shops that do NOTHING but retail comic books old and new) around me even have an AF15, and there are at least 2 dozen shops within miles away from me.  So not accessible there either.

Look at a thread like "garage/craigslist finds" (too lazy to link) on this board. A very active thread that goes back years in time, and features some of the most fantastic finds by some of the savviest of this collectors society. How many AF15 have you seen there?

No AF15 is not a common book. Anyone that agrees with that notion has a hidden political agenda, a horse in a race, or just wants to present a sophisticated point of view which actually is quite dumb.

Because reality sometimes is just as simple as that. 

 

 

When compared to Golden Age collecting were I sometimes have to wait 2 years or more for a chance to buy a book from any of the auction houses, cons, or ebay AF15 is very very common.

I guess it just depends on your point of view. 

For about $35k you could buy every top 20 Silver Age book at FMV within an hour.  There's not a chance in even finding the top Golden Age keys for sale.   If one does pop up, you have to be lucky enough to find one within your budget/grade.  And then have a bidding war.     

Edited August 15, 2017 by Knightsofold

[Aweandlorder]

29 minutes ago, Knightsofold said:

When compared to.....     

Stop right there.

Comparison to other books is absolutely not relative to the word "common". 

AF15 is not a common book to find in the wild. Nor in most retail shops catering to comic book collectors.

It is ONLY common within dealers who most likely spent a lot of time and money locating such a book BECAUSE it's not a common book to find

[FineCollector]

I agree that AF 15 isn't a hard book to find.  I'll grant that most copies on the market are in the hands of dealers and flippers, but everyone has access to eBay, therefore everyone has access to AF15 if they really want one.  It isn't ubiquitous like early Excaliburs or Wildcats #1, but there are plenty of options out there at all times.  If we're arguing the price AF15 should be selling at, that's a whole other discussion.

Anyone else thinking back to Macroeconomics?

 

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by FineCollector
...

[ADAMANTIUM]

I made a B in both micro and macro 

Had a great professor though who shopped at Dave and Adams online..... But only for sports stuff.... 

Edited August 15, 2017 by ADAMANTIUM

[lizards2]

39 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

I made a B in both micro and macro 

Had a great professor though who shopped at Dave and Adams online..... But only for sports stuff.... 

I'm pretty sure I had A's in both those, and more.  It was basically all bullsh*t.

[lizards2]

1 hour ago, Aweandlorder said:

1 hour ago, Knightsofold said:

When compared to.....     

Stop right there.

Comparison to other books is absolutely not relative to the word "common". 

AF15 is not a common book to find in the wild. Nor in most retail shops catering to comic book collectors.

It is ONLY common within dealers who most likely spent a lot of time and money locating such a book BECAUSE it's not a common book to find

I can barely wade through your bullsh*t.  We get it.  You define things different than everyone else.

[Aweandlorder]

Just now, lizards2 said:

You define things different than everyone else.

Since when are u "everyone else"

Nice try. Try again 

[Knightsofold]

54 minutes ago, Aweandlorder said:

Stop right there.

Comparison to other books is absolutely not relative to the word "common". 

AF15 is not a common book to find in the wild. Nor in most retail shops catering to comic book collectors.

It is ONLY common within dealers who most likely spent a lot of time and money locating such a book BECAUSE it's not a common book to find

I think we all just have different definitions of "common" and have to live with it.

[Aweandlorder]

11 minutes ago, Knightsofold said:

I think we all just have different definitions of "common" and have to live with it.

Oh come on man. That's a cop out

Edited August 16, 2017 by Aweandlorder

[porcupine48]

 

[Lazyboy]

AF 15 is definitely common. It's not extremely common, but it's certainly not rare or even uncommon.

In the marketplace, multiple copies are always available. They may not be available at every retail store, but it doesn't matter which group of sellers has the product in a connected world.

[Aweandlorder]

4 minutes ago, porcupine48 said:

 

Again. That's not common!

this is common:

come on!!

[Knightsofold]

21 minutes ago, Aweandlorder said:

Stop right there.

Comparison to other books is absolutely not relative to the word "common". 

AF15 is not a common book to find in the wild. Nor in most retail shops catering to comic book collectors.

It is ONLY common within dealers who most likely spent a lot of time and money locating such a book BECAUSE it's not a common book to find

 

Oh ome on man. That's a cop out

Something can only be "common" or "rare" to a particular area at a particular time.

My particular area is any online dealer, online auction house with a buy it now, a trading site, or a major comic book convention (NYC,Chicago,SDCC).   My particular time is now. 

Yours is "in the wild" or a comic shop.  Why you'd look for it there I have no idea. 

21 minutes ago, Aweandlorder said:

AF15 is not a common book to find in the wild. Nor in most retail shops catering to comic book collectors.

It is ONLY common within dealers who most likely spent a lot of time and money locating such a book BECAUSE it's not a common book to find

Also, when buying books, dealers don't care if a book is "common" or "rare" only if it's profitable now or in the future.

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Knightsofold

[SteppinRazor]

On 8/14/2017 at 10:11 AM, valiantman said:

More times than I can count, I have seen it said on this board that books like Amazing Fantasy #15 are "plentiful" and "available every day of the week".  Generally, these comments are accompanied by complaints (or insinuation) that the price is too high for such a large supply.  The same is true of conversations about books like Incredible Hulk #181 and Amazing Spider-man #300.  

First of all, let's all agree that all of these books are "extremely common" compared to Action Comics #1 or Detective Comics #27.  If that's all that is intended by comments about how plentiful the other books are, well sure, point taken... but what does that have to do with price when demand is so much greater than supply?

Amazing Fantasy #15 is the first appearance of Spider-man... a character that has sold 100,000+ copies of at least one title, and often several titles, of monthly comics for 55 years. There are hundreds of millions of people who know Spider-man.  There are millions of people who can say "I collect comics, and I've got lots of Spider-man comics."  Literally millions.  Now, of those literally millions of people who collect Spider-man comics, past or present, there are literally fewer than 3,000 people who a own graded copy of his first appearance.  99% of Spider-man collectors cannot own a slab for Amazing Fantasy #15.  There aren't enough copies for 99-out-of-100 of Spider-man collectors.

Sure, there are ungraded copies, too... but the market for Amazing Fantasy #15 is dominated by graded copies, so we're not going to find a million ungraded copies anywhere to satisfy demand.  Imagine a scenario where there are 3 people who really want something that only has 1 copy.  What should be the price?  Would any price be "too high" if the 3 potential buyers are all legitimately bidding their max? Make it a million people who would happily own something that only has 3,000 copies.  Not 3-to-1.  More like 300-to-1.  The price should be whatever it is whenever you check the market... and we should not be surprised when the price keeps climbing.  Supply isn't meeting demand.  Switch it to a million people who would happily own something that only has 25,000 copies, like Hulk #181, graded and raw.  That's still 40-to-1.  39 out of 40 cannot own a copy, at any price.  Make it high grade, now 399 out of 400 cannot own a high grade copy, at any price.

"Plentiful" doesn't make sense when demand is 2-to-1.  What we're talking about is hundreds-to-1.  Every comic is "plentiful" compared to original art... By that logic, every copy of Action Comics #1 is priced "too high" compared to a one-of-a-kind original art page from Action Comics #800.  What's that?  Action Comics #1 means more than an original art page from Action Comics #800?  Yes.  Yes it does... and the supply of Amazing Fantasy #15, Incredible Hulk #181, and every other key issue that's 30+ years old will never be enough if there are millions of collectors.  Amazing Fantasy #15 is only "plentiful" compared to an imaginary tiny demand.  Real demand far exceeds the supplies of AF #15, Hulk #181, ASM #300, and just about every other book that has been called "plentiful" on this board.

You've made an assumption that every Spider-Man collector is in the market for an AF15.  They are the entire pool of potential customers, but they aren't kinetic customers.  That is the one flaw in the otherwise appropriate ticket analogy.  There is a presumed buyer for every ticket in that analogy (ie demand outstrips supply).

It appears that there are plenty of buyers and sellers at the current price point of AF15, so the copies are moving and there is probably not a ton of margin on them.  Other than finding the raw ones, or an uneducated owner (rare to have one of those when it's been slabbed).  But if the price drops too low, copies will disappear from the market as people will just be willing to keep them.

Edited August 16, 2017 by SteppinRazor

[1950's war comics]

2 hours ago, Knightsofold said:

When compared to Golden Age collecting were I sometimes have to wait 2 years or more for a chance to buy a book from any of the auction houses, cons, or ebay AF15 is very very common.

I guess it just depends on your point of view. 

For about $35k you could buy every top 20 Silver Age book at FMV within an hour.  There's not a chance in even finding the top Golden Age keys for sale.   If one does pop up, you have to be lucky enough to find one within your budget/grade.  And then have a bidding war.     

100% correct and its not just golden age keys that you might wait years for , even certain regular DC 2nd tier issues have copies that almost are never available , quite a few Strange Adventures have copies that almost never surface for sale

[Gatsby77]

6 hours ago, Aweandlorder said:

I think youre taking my words too personal friend.

Whoever thinks that AF15 is a common book to find EVERYWHERE is dumb. I stand by my words

Sigh...

I count 18 slabbed unrestored slabbed copies graded at least 1.0 available via ebay alone. Right now.

That, in comic book terms, is common.

You know what's less common? Detective Comics # 233 (1st Batwoman).

5 copies (slabbed or raw) available via ebay right now.

_That_ is what we're talking about.

You know what's 5x harder to find in Fine (slabbed or raw) or above than AF 15?

Superboy 68 (first Bizarro). 14 copies (slabbed and raw) total on ebay right now. Precisely zero (slabbed or raw) in Fine or better.

_That_ is what we're talking about.

Even among other Silver Age superhero books, AF 15 is common.

 

"Valuable" and "common" are different things; both however, are relative.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Gatsby77

[1950's war comics]

There are a few 1950's DC and ACG issues i have been waiting on for over five years that in G/VG  or better  have never been offered for sale on eBay...or any of the other auction or dealer site.

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by 1950's war comics

[Aweandlorder]

15 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Sigh...

I count 18 slabbed unrestored copies graded at least 1.0 available via ebay alone. Right now.

That, in comic book terms, is common.

You know what's less common? Detective Comics # 233 (1st Batwoman).

5 copies (slabbed or raw) available via ebay right now.

_That_ is what we're talking about.

You know what's 5x harder to find in Fine (slabbed or raw) or above than AF 15?

Superboy 68 (first Bizarro). 14 copies (slabbed and raw) total on ebay right now. Precisely zero (slabbed or raw) in Fine or better.

_That_ is what we're talking about.

 

"Valuable" and "common" are different things; both however, are relative.

When you manage to successfully _count_ the amount of one UNCOMMON book in order to draw a comparison to other _uncommon_ books, you basically _demonstrate yourself_ how UNcommon that book truly is IN RELATION TO COMIC BOOKS AS A WHOLE

[Gatsby77]

9 minutes ago, Aweandlorder said:

When you manage to successfully _count_ the amount of one UNCOMMON book in order to draw a comparison to other _uncommon_ books, you basically _demonstrate yourself_ how UNcommon that book truly is IN RELATION TO COMIC BOOKS AS A WHOLE

No one ever said relative to COMIC BOOKS AS A WHOLE.

Valiantman said "More times than I can count, I have seen it said on this board that books like Amazing Fantasy #15 are "plentiful" and "available every day of the week." He also set up that it's unfair to compare it to Golden Age books, so I posted some comparable (albeit minor) Silver Age keys.

And what he said is true. You could easily buy a copy of AF 15 every day for a year without breaking a sweat. There are _many_ other Silver Age books for which that is not true. So, AF 15 is indeed "plentiful" -- it's just expensive.

And nice straw man on the "I don't see AF 15s in any comic book stores around me so it's not common." mess, son, I haven't seen _any_ comic store with decent pre-1975 back issues since 2004. That's irrelevant because the whole back issue market has long since moved online -- to ebay and the usual auction houses. You might as well say, "I can't watch that movie because the video rental place doesn't carry it."

mess - Heritage even has a CGC 4.0 Incredible Hulk # 1 in its Sunday auction this week -- a far rarer book than AF 15 and yet it doesn't even rate waiting until its next Signature auction. Just another Sunday on a random weekend in August...