JOKER: THE MOVIE produced by Martin Scorsese (TBD) 1 1

[fantastic_four]

48 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Crazy that one critic calls out Joker for encouraging people killing people, but then with Netflix's Punisher she would be that character to dish out the killing. 

Tough to equate the Joker with the Punisher.  One kills innocents indiscriminately, the other kills only hardcore criminals.  Travis Bickle was a maniac, but I'm completely fine with what Dexter Morgan does as a serial killer who hunts other serial killers.

I'm looking forward to the first serial killer who idolizes Frank Castle or Dexter Morgan, but I'm not expecting it to happen.  Psychopaths are far more likely to be compelled by Bickle or Joker, both of which we've actually seen happen.  Or to say they're doing what Frank Castle does but then they end up killing innocents instead, or perhaps innocent people they judge erroneously as being criminals.  That's the fictional aspect of murderous vigilantes that doesn't translate as well to real life--Castle or Morgan might be wrong and kill the wrong people, and a real psychopath is HIGHLY likely to do exactly that.

Edited September 11, 2019 by fantastic_four

[Bosco685]

4 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

Tough to equate the Joker with the Punisher.  One kills innocents indiscriminately, the other kills only hardcore criminals.  Travis Bickle was a maniac, but I'm completely fine with what Dexter Morgan does as a serial killer who hunts other serial killers.

I'm looking forward to the first serial killer who idolizes Frank Castle or Dexter Morgan, but I'm not expecting it to happen.  Psychopaths are far more likely to be compelled by Bickle or Joker, both of which we've actually seen happen.  Or to say they're doing what Frank Castle does but then they end up killing innocents instead, or perhaps innocent people they judge erroneously as being criminals.  That's the fictional aspect of murderous vigilantes that doesn't translate as well to real life--Castle or Morgan might be wrong and kill the wrong people, and a real psychopath is HIGHLY likely to do exactly that.

Hannibal TV show - I think I have seen a few on here raving how amazing the show is, and wanting more of it.

Bates Motel - How you like me now?

Natural Born Killers - Critics disliked it, movie-goers loved it.

Sorry, but the point it is due to Joker being a killer and evil so therefore people are reviled by the focus may be off slightly. 

[Bosco685]

Not to pick on you in any way, but...

On 4/17/2018 at 7:30 AM, fantastic_four said:

My hopes are up, because I found the first episode marginal and last week's only a bit better.

Either way it looks like this show is headed for the scrap heap due to ratings.  The last show I absolutely loved that just didn't get the ratings is the subject of my avatar--the NBC series Hannibal.  My avatar is Hugh Dancy playing Will Graham, the same role filled by Edward Norton in the film "Red Dragon" or William Peterson in the equivalent film "Manhunter" and one of my favorite fictional characters ever.  He wasn't my favorite until Dancy played him...the Will Graham from that show is incredibly compelling because of what he's able to do with rampant empathy.  I had ZERO expectations for that show and expected it to suck, but WOW, it's one of the best series on network television from the past decade.  That show is just amazing and I still mourn its passing.  

...a show about a serial killer that hides among average people went over strong with you, but not a film about Joker? 

[fantastic_four]

6 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

...a show about a serial killer that hides among average people went over strong with you, but not a film about Joker? 

I can't tell who you're responding to.  My favorite movie ever is "The Dark Knight" almost ENTIRELY because of Heath Ledger, and my forum avatar is Will Graham as portrayed by Hugh Dancy from the Hannibal television show.  Where'd you get the idea I don't like the idea of a movie like Joker?  It's like you're ranting at critics who don't like the film because they think it can accelerate the increasing trend of mass killings in America but directing it at me.  

Edited September 11, 2019 by fantastic_four

[Bosco685]

3 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

I can't tell who you're responding to.  My favorite movie ever is "The Dark Knight" almost ENTIRELY because of Heath Ledger, and my forum avatar is Will Graham as portrayed by Hugh Dancy from the Hannibal television show.  Where'd you get the idea I don't like the idea of a movie like Joker?  It's like you're ranting at critics who don't like the film because they think it can accelerate the increasing trend of mass killings in America but directing it at me.  

The other day you first made a statement the Aurora Killer was inspired by the Joker (he wasn't).

Then you posted this.

1 hour ago, fantastic_four said:

Tough to equate the Joker with the Punisher.  One kills innocents indiscriminately, the other kills only hardcore criminals.  Travis Bickle was a maniac, but I'm completely fine with what Dexter Morgan does as a serial killer who hunts other serial killers.

I'm looking forward to the first serial killer who idolizes Frank Castle or Dexter Morgan, but I'm not expecting it to happen.  Psychopaths are far more likely to be compelled by Bickle or Joker, both of which we've actually seen happen.  Or to say they're doing what Frank Castle does but then they end up killing innocents instead, or perhaps innocent people they judge erroneously as being criminals.  That's the fictional aspect of murderous vigilantes that doesn't translate as well to real life--Castle or Morgan might be wrong and kill the wrong people, and a real psychopath is HIGHLY likely to do exactly that.

So then you made a statement it is the Joker as a lead which is the concern since he kills innocents, but someone like Punisher or Dexter kills bad people and that is why they are more acceptable. Yet even you note missing the show Hannibal, which was about a serial killer slowly growing in his range of murders as he works with an agent trying to solve murders.

Am I ranting, or are you missing the double-standard? 

[theCapraAegagrus]

[fantastic_four]

3 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

The other day you first made a statement the Aurora Killer was inspired by the Joker (he wasn't).

Yes, he was.  Your point was that he had a lifetime of mental disorders so that it's not like Christopher Nolan flipped a kid who was perfectly normal into a mass murderer with a film.  Obviously that's true, and I didn't respond to your post two days because it was obvious in mine that you were responding to that I already knew that, but you raced ahead anyway in pointing out how he was already a psychopath before seeing "The Dark Knight," which I already knew and stated myself.  I also already knew everything you posted about Holmes since I've been fascinated by serial killers since I was a teenager and followed the story as it happened back then, so I know all about his background.  So yes, the film didn't create him, but yes, it did alter him.

And as I said in the original post that's sent you off on this rant, Christopher Nolan doesn't deserve any more blame for what Holmes did than Scorsese does for what Hinckley did.  Nor should people stop telling stories about psychopaths for fear of helping to inspire others to take action.  Like I said earlier this morning, I suspect exploring these dark topics is more therapeutic than detrimental to society as a whole.  But I'm not sure of it, which is why I'm discussing it at all.

You're picking out parts of my posts that are triggering you for whatever reason, focusing on those, and ignoring the rest, so this probably isn't worth discussing.  

[Bosco685]

3 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

Yes, he was.  Your point was that he had a lifetime of mental disorders so that it's not like Christopher Nolan flipped a kid who was perfectly normal into a mass murderer with a film.  Obviously that's true, and I didn't respond to your post two days because it was obvious in mine that you were responding to that I already knew that, but you raced ahead anyway in pointing out how he was already a psychopath before seeing "The Dark Knight," which I already knew and stated myself.  I also already knew everything you posted about Holmes since I've been fascinated by serial killers since I was a teenager and followed the story as it happened back then, so I know all about his background.  So yes, the film didn't create him, but yes, it did alter him.

And as I said in the original post that's sent you off on this rant, Christopher Nolan doesn't deserve any more blame for what Holmes did than Scorsese does for what Hinckley did.  Nor should people stop telling stories about psychopaths for fear of helping to inspire others to take action.  Like I said earlier this morning, I suspect exploring these dark topics is more therapeutic than detrimental to society as a whole.  But I'm not sure of it, which is why I'm discussing it at all.

You're picking out parts of my posts that are triggering you for whatever reason, focusing on those, and ignoring the rest, so this probably isn't worth discussing.  

I'm not triggered by anything you said. I'm responding to your discussion points. If that makes you uncomfortable, I don't know what to tell you.

You made a post counter to mine that James Holmes was inspired by Joker. I responded to it this was inaccurate, as even the judge releasing his psychiatric records helped reveal he had long-term issues with thoughts of hurting people.

You then posting the Joker potentially inspiring people because he kills good people - Dexter and Punisher kills bad people - and this could be a bigger concern doesn't match reality. So I shared the Hannibal and Bates Motel results, and even noted not to pick on you but even one of those shows you are a big fan of it that misses it being on.

Don't get so triggered. I made it clear I wasn't attacking you. It's called a discussion. 

[Bosco685]

20 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

No fight needed.

[Bosco685]

Even the assumption James Holmes did what he did because of the Joker leads to concerns facts are being ignored due to one statement: 'I'm the Joker!'

James Holmes Picked Midnight Movie To Avoid Shooting Children, Psychiatrist Says

Quote

According to Arapahoe County District Attorney George Brauchler, Holmes chose the Century 16 theater for his attack because he liked movie theaters and the specific theater had doors that he could lock in order to increase the number of casualties, as well as being in an area where police response would take longer. He specifically chose to attack a midnight screening because he believed fewer children would be present, not wanting to kill them. Holmes allegedly considered other locations for a mass shooting, such as an airport, but ruled it out because an airport would have too much security. He also wrote his reasoning that an attack on an airport would be confused as an act of terrorism, saying, "Terrorism isn't the message. The message is, there is no message."

it had nothing to do with Batman, Joker or even Robin. It is a sad situation which from the details was boiling to the top, and ended up in a film theater. Unless airports have something to do with those characters.

[ComicConnoisseur]

Next they will be telling us video games cause violence, but that was disproven when someone on reddit mentioned Japan were most of the videogames are made and are even more popular than USA have or had no such violent acts.

[theCapraAegagrus]

12 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Next they will be telling us video games cause violence, but that was disproven when someone on reddit mentioned Japan were most of the videogames are made and are even more popular than USA have or had no such violent acts.

Yeah, but like, they probably play things like Final Fantasy more than anything else.

You bet your , if humans could cast magic spells, they'd be doing that all over the place!

[Hollywood1892]

4 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Yeah, but like, they probably play things like Final Fantasy more than anything else.

You bet your , if humans could cast magic spells, they'd be doing that all over the place!

I love final fantasy

Especially VIII for some reason

[ComicConnoisseur]

I think some of the hate is coming from Heath Ledger Joker fans.

I got that same vibe when Andrew Garfield replaced Tobey Maguire as Spider-Man.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Just now, Hollywood1892 said:

I love final fantasy

Especially VIII for some reason

I haven't played any since... X, I think?

Tactics Advance for the DS might be my all-time favorite.

[ComicConnoisseur]

1 minute ago, Hollywood1892 said:

I love final fantasy

Especially VIII for some reason

This was the one I was into back in the day.

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

I think some of the hate is coming from Heath Ledger Joker fans.

I got that same vibe when Andrew Garfield replaced Tobey Maguire as Spider-Man.

I grew up with the Maguire Spider-Man, but I recognize that Garfield was a better Peter Parker.

As I mentioned before, I think it's impossible to top Ledger's performance, because it came from nowhere. I have no doubts that Phoenix will perform well or phenomenally. Will the movie be better than The Dark Knight, though? Surprise typically trumps predictability.

[ComicConnoisseur]

21 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

I grew up with the Maguire Spider-Man, but I recognize that Garfield was a better Peter Parker.

If people go back and watch those Garfield Spider-Man movies they will find they were better than they remembered. What happened was people really wanted more Tobey movies so they judged those Garfield movies with emotion.

Same thing happened with the Cavill Superman a pretty good movie but everybody was missing and comparing him to Chris Reeves Superman.

I see the same thing happening again with some Ledger Joker fans.

It`s cool as I will most likely feel the same way about the new guys who will replace RDJ as Iron Man and Jackman Wolverine eventually.

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by ComicConnoisseur

[fantastic_four]

1 hour ago, Bosco685 said:

You made a post counter to mine that James Holmes was inspired by Joker. I responded to it this was inaccurate, as even the judge releasing his psychiatric records helped reveal he had long-term issues with thoughts of hurting people.

BOTH are true, and EVERY serial or mass killer has long-term issues and thoughts of killing people.  Killers aren't just born overnight, they follow a long and unpredictably twisting path that begins when they're young children.  For Holmes, Heath Ledger was a part of that path, and as we both pointed out it was at the end.  Had he not been inspired by that character he probably would've ended up shooting someone else in a different venue at some point.

[fantastic_four]

1 hour ago, Bosco685 said:

Even the assumption James Holmes did what he did because of the Joker leads to concerns facts are being ignored due to one statement: 'I'm the Joker!'

He did what he did because he's a psychopath.  The evidence that he was inspired by the character is not just him saying it, but him dying his hair the same color as Ledger, and choosing the premiere of Dark Knight Rises.

The quibbling here seems to be over what the word "inspire" means.  It's not a synonym for Ledger's character CAUSING the killing, but he was clearly inspired by Ledger's Joker.