INVESTMENT COLLECTIBLES does it again!!

[jkrk]

I have a feeling that this might be the thread that never dies. We have all seen the threads that run 50 pages that always seems to be reciving a bump. The kind of thread that we are all glad has ended only to receive a bump 6 years later. Anyway, the topic seems to hit many posters nerves as the concept of whether to spend "real money" on comics becomes the issue. Keeping that in mind I'll keep this post a bit in the serious mode.

 

The profit motive drives the hobby. Are individuals spending vast sums of money solely to bring them back to their roots? There are cheaper waysre to return from a trip down nostalga central. Therefore, sellers , are always be looking for a new way to turn "manure into gold" (extreme yes, but I suspect the idea is understood). Overgrading and undisclosed restorations were the vehicles of the past (and present). Since CGC (3rd party grading) came into existance sellers had to find a somewhat more

creative way to skin the cat. Thus pressing enters the realm of today.

 

I understand the concept of being angry paying for a pressed (upgraded) book. I hate paying a dollar more for a resale than someone paid last week. I really become annoyed seeing a book I sold on E-Bay show up on a Heritage auction a few months later graded up a notch or two.

 

From what I can gather, a good pressing job is undetectable. If that is true then unless one knows about the entire history of a book (every sale) how can anyone tell whether he/she bought a pressed book? I find it hard to believe that most sellers will declare that a book they're attempting to sell has been pressed if it is undectable. If there are identifying marks then the odds may shift. Clearly some sellers will be upfront if approached but many will simply deny any knowledge of the pressing on the oft chance a dicovery is made. If trying to spot a color touch was impossible to observe would sellers admit that the book was altered?

 

In the end we are dealing with a business within a hobby. Maximizing profits will mostly be the key. Reputation is paramount so the key for the seller will be to understand which books will be questioned and which can't be tracked. The auction houses will see many of the pressed books since the sellers remain anonymous and never have to confront the issue. My view is that believing most sellers will be upfront is a bit naive.

[comicworm]

No offense guys, but if you have 100 books in a stack for X number of years, aren't the ones in the middle going to appear to be "pressed"??

 

I still don't get the issue. If it does damage the book as you say, then CGC should give it a lower grade when it is sent in for grading or the dealer should take that into account when selling it RAW and lower the grade.

 

Either way-I just don't see the issue....

[goldust40]

No offense guys, but if you have 100 books in a stack for X number of years, aren't the ones in the middle going to appear to be "pressed"??

 

Remember what I said about searching for previous threads on the subject - the differences between a comic being pressed under a stack and being professionally pressed are that the latter is heat and moisture assisted and the pounds per square inch pressure is much, much, greater.

[OldGuy]

I believe comicworm is saying that you can't detect pressing by examining the book itself, without researching its history.

 

How much are you willing to spend on a book without researching it's history? And what about other forms of restoration? Many times in your post you make statements like "you can't detect.." and "you can't prove....". I am sure you're right, there are probably many types of restoration that I can't detect, or you for that matter. So if I don't know a book has been color touched then why should I care? Come on, get real. I don't subscribe to the "ignorance is bliss" theory.

[nearmint]

I believe comicworm is saying that you can't detect pressing by examining the book itself, without researching its history.

 

How much are you willing to spend on a book without researching it's history? And what about other forms of restoration? Many times in your post you make statements like "you can't detect.." and "you can't prove....". I am sure you're right, there are probably many types of restoration that I can't detect, or you for that matter. So if I don't know a book has been color touched then why should I care? Come on, get real. I don't subscribe to the "ignorance is bliss" theory.

 

Oldguy, I am in no way supporting an "ignorance is bliss" stance. When I make statements like "you can't detect pressing", I'm not talking about me, or you, I'm talking about EVERYONE, including resto experts. When done professionally, it's an undectectable process. I don't know of any other form or resto which that can be said about. You're comparing apples and oranges when you bring up color touch, which can certainly be detected by someone with a well-trained eye or the correct equipment.

 

What I'm suggesting is that there is a significant % of collectors who are not blissfully ignorant. On the contrary, they are well-versed in the pressing issue, but in the absence of any evidence that damage is caused to comics as a result of the process, find no reason for concern, and no reason to change their buying habits.

 

You can say "come on, get real" all you want. But if I'm wrong, why is it that dealers and auction houses who are suspected of pressing books continue to be some of the most successful sellers in the hobby?

[comicworm]

Again I agree with NEARMINT. If CGC can't detect it and its done run-what the heck is the big deal? Come up with a way to detect perfect pressing and maybe you will have an argument...

 

again- I only buy CGC graded comics. If the grade is right and I don't mind paying the price-who cares if it was pressed or not? More poqwer to those who can do it right....

 

I just don't understand what all the fuss is about. I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but come on....

[OldGuy]

why is it that dealers and auction houses who are suspected of pressing books continue to be some of the most successful sellers in the hobby?

 

I don't even pretend to understand most collectors mentalities. Why is Comic Keys the single most successfully seller of raw comics on Ebay? Heck if I know, but just because he's successful doesn't mean I'm buying any of his books. I've never been much for falling into the herd mentality, call me crazy. Sorry, but "successful" does not automatically equal "someone I want to do business with".

[nearmint]

why is it that dealers and auction houses who are suspected of pressing books continue to be some of the most successful sellers in the hobby?

 

I don't even pretend to understand most collectors mentalities. Why is Comic Keys the single most successfully seller of raw comics on Ebay? Heck if I know, but just because he's successful doesn't mean I'm buying any of his books. I've never been much for falling into the herd mentality, call me crazy. Sorry, but "successful" does not automatically equal "someone I want to do business with".

 

Again, we're talking about two different things. Comic Keys depends on the IGNORANCE of his buyers.

 

As I said before, I'm talking about a % of collectors who are WELL-VERSED in the pressing controversy, but have not changed their buying habits because the process does not concern them.

 

I don't expect you to follow any herd. Many collectors agree with you, and of course you have every right to choose who you conduct business with.

 

My point was merely this...this % of collectors who do not let the pressing controversy affect their buying habits is one of several obstacles to the changes that those against pressing seem to want in the hobby. It doesn't help that many of those that have come out against pressing haven't changed their buying habits either. Actions speak louder than words.

 

Dealers and auction houses are not going to alter how they do business when their current business model is working.

[OldGuy]

My point was merely this...this % of collectors who do not let the pressing controversy affect their buying habits is one of several obstacles to the changes that those against pressing seem to want in the hobby. It doesn't help that many of those that have come out against pressing haven't changed their buying habits either. Actions speak louder than words.

 

Dealers and auction houses are not going to alter how they do business when their current business model is working.

 

I totally agree.

[nearmint]

My point was merely this...this % of collectors who do not let the pressing controversy affect their buying habits is one of several obstacles to the changes that those against pressing seem to want in the hobby. It doesn't help that many of those that have come out against pressing haven't changed their buying habits either. Actions speak louder than words.

 

Dealers and auction houses are not going to alter how they do business when their current business model is working.

 

I totally agree.

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

You can say "come on, get real" all you want. But if I'm wrong, why is it that dealers and auction houses who are suspected of pressing books continue to be some of the most successful sellers in the hobby?

 

Because they press their 9.2/9.4s into Highest graded copies ?

 

Speculators are the primary market force...and they either don't know about pressing...or don't care.

 

Collectors couldn't impact the current market...even if every one of them were on the same side.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Come up with a way to detect perfect pressing and maybe you will have an argument...

 

If someone does come up with such a detection device....there will no longer be any need to argue .

[nearmint]

You can say "come on, get real" all you want. But if I'm wrong, why is it that dealers and auction houses who are suspected of pressing books continue to be some of the most successful sellers in the hobby?

 

Because they press their 9.2/9.4s into Highest graded copies ?

 

Speculators are the primary market force...and they either don't know about pressing...or don't care.

 

Collectors couldn't impact the current market...even if every one of them were on the same side.

 

Speculators(and some collectors) not caring is EXACTLY my point. Glad you agree!

[supapimp]

I have a feeling that this might be the thread that never dies.

 

it's in the marketplace forum so it'll die if no one bumps this thread within 15 days.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Hmm....

 

Not enough people care....so I'm not going to care either

 

Am I understanding your stance correctly?

[nearmint]

Hmm....

 

Not enough people care....so I'm not going to care either

 

Am I understanding your stance correctly?

 

Argh. Where did I suggest that I was following the "I don't care" crowd like a sheep? I have read ALL the opinions about this issue, and made an informed opinion that pressing is harmless, and a process that I'm comfortable with.

 

In saying that, I am not trying to negate or dispute anyone else's opinion, but simply stating my own.

 

More importantly, the discussion in this thread(at least the discussion between myself and Esquire, and myself and Oldguy), was not about whether pressing is good or bad, or who is right or wrong, or even what side I take on the issue. It was an exploration of the roadblocks to full disclosure that currently exist. Mainly, that those on both sides of the aisle(those against pressing, and those comfortable with the process) have not changed their buying habits in response to the controversy, so sellers have no motivation to change.

 

I gotta be honest, after what I thought was a fairly thoughtful conversation, to have you flippantly ask if my stance is "not enough people care, so I'm not going to care either", is pretty insulting.

[esquirecomics]

Mainly, that those on both sides of the aisle(those against pressing, and those comfortable with the process) have not changed their buying habits in response to the controversy, so sellers have no motivation to change.

 

Jeff, that was not entirely true. There were several of us who did note in this thread that we have, at least in part, changed our buying habits due to the possibility of undisclosed pressing.

[nearmint]

Yes, that's true. But as I stated before, not enough have changed their buying habits to elicit any change in how seller's operate. You added that over time, that may occur, and you may be right. Only time will tell.

[tth2]

Mainly, that those on both sides of the aisle(those against pressing, and those comfortable with the process) have not changed their buying habits in response to the controversy, so sellers have no motivation to change.

 

Jeff, that was not entirely true. There were several of us who did note in this thread that we have, at least in part, changed our buying habits due to the possibility of undisclosed pressing.

Mark, did you ask Heritage whether every single book that you bid on had been pressed?

[esquirecomics]

Mainly, that those on both sides of the aisle(those against pressing, and those comfortable with the process) have not changed their buying habits in response to the controversy, so sellers have no motivation to change.

 

Jeff, that was not entirely true. There were several of us who did note in this thread that we have, at least in part, changed our buying habits due to the possibility of undisclosed pressing.

Mark, did you ask Heritage whether every single book that you bid on had been pressed?

 

No, I did not. I only performed research myself. Thus, admittedly, if I did buy a pressed book, I must assume that responsibility for having done so.

 

I have asked Heritage on previous occasions whether they press books. They replied they do not. However, the answer was couched in the context of in-house pressing, i.e., no Heritage employee does it. Rumor has it other arrangements have been made.

 

If you look at the Heritage thread in the GA section where Lon Allen was responding to comments about Matt Nelson not being an employee of Heritage, I asked specifically whether Matt Nelson works for Heritage in a contractor capacity. To date, no response to my question though Lon posted again after I did.