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Detective Comics #35 (Larson Pedigree) no longer PLOD
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167 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, MrBedrock said:

Can anyone see my last post?

If you used the actual name for the other company, your post was blocked until approved by a mod.  A new policy they enacted a few months ago. 

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1 minute ago, Sqeggs said:
1 hour ago, MrBedrock said:

Can anyone see my last post?

If you used the actual name for the other company, your post was blocked until approved by a mod.  A new policy they enacted a few months ago. 

not if you type in lower case, like so ... cbcs

The stuff I know. :acclaim:

Edited by Gotham Kid
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Just now, Gotham Kid said:
1 minute ago, Sqeggs said:
1 hour ago, MrBedrock said:

Can anyone see my last post?

If you used the actual name for the other company, your post was blocked until approved by a mod.  A new policy they enacted a few months ago. 

not if you type in lower case, like so cbcs

Ah, you know all the tricks! :)

I believe that's called the straw-man exception. 

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13 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

This is a good part of the reason why different colored labels were a problem from the get-go. People react viscerally to colors, and assign a form of emotional reaction to them that tends to overrule logic and reason when considering just what has been done, to what extent.

People even gave them epithets based on the color of the label...something as meaningless to the actual condition of the book as the font of the label. 

I think in theory it was a good idea to alert buyers. I do not like how the “other guys” label their restored books in holders. It also confuses a bit of the issue that a 9.0 unrestored is not equal to a 9.0 restored book where as the coloured holder alerts you to that right away.

 

The problem was always in the history of restored books not being in the general interest of the books or hobby but in the pockets of sellers trying to put one over on buyers. That’s a tough nut to overcome and really the resto. check was and is a big part of CGC’s selling points. They tried to introduce a third party to broker trust in sales.

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38 minutes ago, batman_fan said:

In general I prefer unrestored books but availability and price can provide motivation to purchase a book. Personally I prefer an easy way to distinguish between the various books such as color.  We have had heated arguments on purple labels before and never agree on an acceptable solution.  

 

29 minutes ago, N e r V said:

I think in theory it was a good idea to alert buyers. I do not like how the “other guys” label their restored books in holders. It also confuses a bit of the issue that a 9.0 unrestored is not equal to a 9.0 restored book where as the coloured holder alerts you to that right away.

And that's my point: people want an "easy" way to identify a book, and so an "easy" way of dismissing restored books is what happened. I'm not suggesting everyone is doing it...but, clearly, the majority are, as the color of the label is what everyone keeps coming back to. 

How many people...if they're being honest...see "purple" and have an immediate negative visceral reaction? 

I do. I've watched others do the exact same thing. In fact, because of the stigma of a COLOR...there are people who would rather crack the book out of the slab, and sell it as a raw restored book....fully and completely disclosing its status...rather than have people react negatively because of the color of the label.

The acceptable solution was to not have different color labels. Since that didn't happen, the acceptable solution is education. 

A book with a slight dot of color touch is dismissed...even by people who know better...the same as a book with extensive repair, because they reside in the same COLOR label.

Good for the people who don't mind a tiny bit of restoration; bad for the market as a whole.

 

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1 hour ago, MrBedrock said:

Obviously CGC "qualified" those books back when you worked there. Those are all very old label examples. They label them differently now.

How would you guys at the other grading service label those books? Do y'all even make a distinction between Conserved and Restored? 

Those were all done before my tenure.

 

I only post on these boards as a comic collector/historian/enthusiast(thumbsu

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26 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

 

And that's my point: people want an "easy" way to identify a book, and so an "easy" way of dismissing restored books is what happened. I'm not suggesting everyone is doing it...but, clearly, the majority are, as the color of the label is what everyone keeps coming back to. 

How many people...if they're being honest...see "purple" and have an immediate negative visceral reaction? 

I do. I've watched others do the exact same thing. In fact, because of the stigma of a COLOR...there are people who would rather crack the book out of the slab, and sell it as a raw restored book....fully and completely disclosing its status...rather than have people react negatively because of the color of the label.

The acceptable solution was to not have different color labels. Since that didn't happen, the acceptable solution is education. 

A book with a slight dot of color touch is dismissed...even by people who know better...the same as a book with extensive repair, because they reside in the same COLOR label.

Good for the people who don't mind a tiny bit of restoration; bad for the market as a whole.

 

I think if we were starting from scratch I would have all the holders the same colour (blue) and use something like coloured dots (say yellow, orange, red, purple...) that would notify the buyer how much resto. work was done (lowest to highest) and that conserved books would simply have the word “conserved”in large white letters over the blue label. That in my opinion would be enough to keep things neat looking with notifiers where needed. So if it’s really minor resto. work like some colour  touching it’s a yellow dot and if it’s a lot of work  it’s a red or purple.

 

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23 minutes ago, Timely said:
2 hours ago, MrBedrock said:

Obviously CGC "qualified" those books back when you worked there. Those are all very old label examples. They label them differently now.

How would you guys at the other grading service label those books? Do y'all even make a distinction between Conserved and Restored? 

Those were all done before my tenure.

 

I only post on these boards as a comic collector/historian/enthusiast(thumbsu

Let me get this straight. You said, based on all of the examples that you dug up through Heritage Archives, that CGC labels cleaned staples as "Qualified". But you know full well that they no longer label them that way ... and you know that because you worked there. Now you work at the competitor but you are on here commenting as just a comic collector/historian/enthusiast?

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16 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

Let me get this straight. You said, based on all of the examples that you dug up through Heritage Archives, that CGC labels cleaned staples as "Qualified". But you know full well that they no longer label them that way ... and you know that because you worked there. Now you work at the competitor but you are on here commenting as just a comic collector/historian/enthusiast?

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hm

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1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:
2 hours ago, batman_fan said:

In general I prefer unrestored books but availability and price can provide motivation to purchase a book. Personally I prefer an easy way to distinguish between the various books such as color.  We have had heated arguments on purple labels before and never agree on an acceptable solution.  

 

2 hours ago, N e r V said:

I think in theory it was a good idea to alert buyers. I do not like how the “other guys” label their restored books in holders. It also confuses a bit of the issue that a 9.0 unrestored is not equal to a 9.0 restored book where as the coloured holder alerts you to that right away.

And that's my point: people want an "easy" way to identify a book, and so an "easy" way of dismissing restored books is what happened.

Taking the 'easy path' is why people never really educated themselves on restoration.

Those that did educate themselves on restoration started to realize that even within Purple Restored labels there were huge valuation swings.

The move to the conserved label IMO forces people to better understand techniques and gives them more choices on what they want to purchased / collect.

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4 hours ago, Sqeggs said:

Yet here https://www.cgccomics.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=4030& they state:

Introduction of the Conservation Scale
Specific repairs done to improve the structural integrity and long-term preservation of a comic book will now be classified as “conservation” and designated with a blue / purple label. These repairs include tear seals, support, staple replacement, piece reattachment and certain kinds of cleaning.

It would be very odd if staple cleaning would lead to a Restored label while staple replacement would get a Conserved label.

For what it's worth, Overstreet doesn't consider staple replacement restoration so long as the staples uses to replace are from the same era that the book was published. It would make sense to replace the staples rather than cleaning them if this definition were applied.

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1 minute ago, bronze johnny said:

For what it's worth, Overstreet doesn't consider staple replacement restoration so long as the staples uses to replace are from the same era that the book was published. It would make sense to replace the staples rather than cleaning them if this definition were applied.

If I'm remembering correctly, a few years back somebody asked about staple replacement in the "Ask CGC" thread.  I think this was before the Conserved label was instituted.  CGC said then that they didn't follow Overstreet on this one and if they detected that staples had been replaced, the book would be considered restored even if staples of the correct vintage had been used.

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59 minutes ago, Sqeggs said:

If I'm remembering correctly, a few years back somebody asked about staple replacement in the "Ask CGC" thread.  I think this was before the Conserved label was instituted.  CGC said then that they didn't follow Overstreet on this one and if they detected that staples had been replaced, the book would be considered restored even if staples of the correct vintage had been used.

I remember that too. What it ultimately comes down to is whether "we the collectors" define whether staple cleansing or staple replacement is restoration. I, for one, believe that staple cleansing is not restoration but conservation, and also adhere to Overstreet's definition concerning staple replacement.  

Here's a scenario to consider:

A restored 3.0 that has "a small amount of color touch" but has defects that will improve the book through conservation- removing rust from the staples where there is no surrounding rust migration on the paper. The book comes back a 4.0 - should the label indicate that conservation improved the grade since restoration had nothing to do with the improvement? Would the owner of this book prefer a conservation note on the label since a book with less restoration has greater value? 

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1 minute ago, bronze johnny said:

I remember that too. What it ultimately comes down to is whether "we the collectors" define whether staple cleansing or staple replacement is restoration. I, for one, believe that staple cleansing is not restoration but conservation, and also adhere to Overstreet's definition concerning staple replacement.  

Here's a scenario to consider:

A restored 3.0 that has "a small amount of color touch" but has defects that will improve the book through conservation- removing rust from the staples where there is no surrounding rust migration on the paper. The book comes back a 4.0 - should the label indicate that conservation improved the grade since restoration had nothing to do with the improvement? Would the owner of this book prefer a conservation note on the label since a book with less restoration has greater value? 

I think the book would have "staples cleaned" as a label note wouldn't it?  So, I don't think the owner would be able to avoid the note.  At this grade level, I'm not sure that rust on the staples with no migration would lower the grade.  Interesting point, though, about Conservation raising the grade.  

I think the intention is that a book in a Conserved slab has had work done to it that preserves the book but that doesn't raise the grade.  But I'm not sure I have that right and I'm even less sure that that's how it works in practice, whatever the original intention of introducing the Conserved label was.

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29 minutes ago, Sqeggs said:

I think the book would have "staples cleaned" as a label note wouldn't it?  So, I don't think the owner would be able to avoid the note.  At this grade level, I'm not sure that rust on the staples with no migration would lower the grade.  Interesting point, though, about Conservation raising the grade.  

I think the intention is that a book in a Conserved slab has had work done to it that preserves the book but that doesn't raise the grade.  But I'm not sure I have that right and I'm even less sure that that's how it works in practice, whatever the original intention of introducing the Conserved label was.

You're correct concerning my using a 3.0 for the scenario so let's say restored 6.0 with small amt of color touch and had rusty staples- staples cleaned and grade comes back a 7.0 (cleaned staples will rasie the grade). There's no issue with the intent here- removing rust benefits the book by preventing potential migration (assuming there is none at the time the book is submitted for staple cleaning and subsequent grading).  There's no question that the label will indicate that the staples were cleaned (we see it on labels) but shouldn't conservation be noted for bringing the grade up to avoid any assumption that the bump up is attibuted to restoration, when it's not?

26 minutes ago, Sqeggs said:

And, yes, I agree that in the end the hobby makes up its collective mind about this stuff and that on average prices move to reflect that collective view. 

This is where I wish we had a Comic Book Collectors Society where we could take a unified position that reflects what collectors believe.

Edited by bronze johnny
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11 minutes ago, Sqeggs said:

And, yes, I agree that in the end the hobby makes up its collective mind about this stuff and that on average prices move to reflect that collective view. 

Not sure about "average prices move to reflect that collective view" -  plenty of people out there overpaying for books on account of their knowing next to nothing about this hobby. Also can't forget the notorious ones who are good at manipulating prices and flipping books- they have, unfortunately, influenced prices in a number of venues.

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I can't speak for the entire market out there but I would pay more for a book in a conserved label with cleaned staples than a regular holder with a book with rusty staples. That might be the exception but there are times when I prefer work being done on a book vs it's natural (unhealthy) state. 

 

 

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On 10/16/2017 at 5:00 PM, MrBedrock said:

Having been fortunate enough to have owned this book in the past I completely agree with the label. The cover was cleaned but as far as I am concerned nothing about this book was restored. It never had any pieces added, any color touch, any tears mended or reinforcement. It just had dirt removed from the cover. The conserved label tells any potential buyer exactly what they need to know. It has been cleaned, it is the Larson, and it is really beautiful.

Kind of wonder why have it cleaned at all, particularly with dry cleaning as a blue label option.  Not that I play in this $ market, but for my education.  Seems that paying to have it cleaned actually would have resulted in lower value book?

Edited by path4play
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