Beckett 3 3

[namisgr]

32 minutes ago, 1950's war comics said:

 

Some don't like this list , not sure why those complaining about this list are spending their time then on these very CGC chat boards, 

would some of these very same people have the audacity to bring some fast food bought elsewhere into a nice sit down restaurant

You've only been here for a few years.  I suppose you'd have had a coronary had you been around for the discussion when it was revealed publicly that CGC had been running in secret for select customers an in-house pressing operation.  

Contrary to your view, collectors and dealers have used this forum for over 15 years now to discuss a variety of important and contentious issues in the hobby that have involved CGC in the discussion, and not always in the best light.  Like when microtrimmed comics were getting unrestored blue labels.  Or when the in-house pressing service was distorting the appearance of high grade comics, worsening their appearance all the while they were receiving higher numerical grades.  Or when spine realignment was getting upgrades and unrestored labels on books.  Or when the holders were leading to a number of comics suffering structural damage from 'shaken comic syndrome'.  That's how it works with adults who care deeply about the hobby and feel like stewards of the old comics.

Edited October 31, 2017 by namisgr

[Tony S]

13 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

It is common knowledge that Voldy sell for less.  15-25% less is the range that I've seen floated the most and is generally consistent with even a casual perusal of online sales.  

I find it comical, how many people on here are trying to resuscitate and redeem this failed company after their bail out by another company that is generally disliked by our hobby.  "But this is a GOOD thing, your posts are so 'dumb!'"- said only the few people who own Voldy slabs and are secretly terrified of them suddenly being worth less than they already were.  It's as tasteless as 1950swarcomics said. Go to Voldy's own boards and do that - oh wait, no one is actually on those.  

-J.

It's not such common knowledge. I only see this being the situation on eBay and FB forums. ComicLink, ComicConnect, MCS, Heritage -- If the Voldy slab looks the grade it sells in the range.  One should keep in mind that GPA average is just that. On any given day, a CGC slabs sell below the average. 

You rest your case on a debate that is not a given, nor generally accepted.  

And for those of us that are willing to reholder books for a newly redesigned slab or that are dealers with dealer accounts, the idea - if we needed to - that we might have to reholder some books to get top price means almost nothing to us.  And even that would be a business decision. A 15 % difference in price - even if it existed - still wouldn't be worth reholdering until you got to about $300 value.

I send in 1500-2000 books a year to CGC.  But i'm not a cheerleader, I'm a customer.   Your comments are deep into cheer leader territory. 

[1950's war comics]

although i am newer it is very easy to surmise that pressing was a hot button topic back then when the cat was not out of the bag......

it is now known to all and long gone water under the bridge

[SC22]

I have much respect for Beckett's sports card holders will be cool to see the ones for comic books!! I prefer Beckett holders over PSA but PSA graded cards still sell for more money.

[Tony S]

21 minutes ago, 1950's war comics said:

 

Some don't like this list , not sure why those complaining about this list are spending their time then on these very CGC chat boards, 

would some of these very same people have the audacity to bring some fast food bought elsewhere into a nice sit down restaurant

This is the General discussion subsection of the largest comic book discussion chat board. Beckett moving into the graded comic book market is certainly BIG news.  I'm sure the Certified Collectibles Group sees it as a big thing.   There is a difference between trashing the host (CCS) and a discussion of the impact competition has had on graded and encapsulated comics and what Beckett's move might mean going forward.

I probably have not read every single post. But what I have read has not sounded like trashing CGC nor promoting of a specific competitor.  Was everyone just supposed to stick their heads in the sand and pretend like Beckett's move didn't happen? Or isn't important? Not discuss it so that we don't offend somebody somewhere sometime? 

The list itself had areas that were highly debatable. Debate is what happens when such is posted up on a chat board.  As long as the debate doesn't devolve into name calling, it's supposed to be OK. 

[SC22]

I imagine their Beckett's cases will be very solid and not likely to have minor cracks in it when handle like some of the older CGC cases have. This is a very good thing for us OCD people.

[Jaydogrules]

25 minutes ago, Tony S said:

It's not such common knowledge. I only see this being the situation on eBay and FB forums. ComicLink, ComicConnect, MCS, Heritage -- If the Voldy slab looks the grade it sells in the range.  One should keep in mind that GPA average is just that. On any given day, a CGC slabs sell below the average. 

You rest your case on a debate that is not a given, nor generally accepted.  

And for those of us that are willing to reholder books for a newly redesigned slab or that are dealers with dealer accounts, the idea - if we needed to - that we might have to reholder some books to get top price means almost nothing to us.  And even that would be a business decision. A 15 % difference in price - even if it existed - still wouldn't be worth reholdering until you got to about $300 value.

I send in 1500-2000 books a year to CGC.  But i'm not a cheerleader, I'm a customer.   Your comments are deep into cheer leader territory. 

Cheerleader?   Not really.  I just give props where props are due. And Voldy slabs sell less EVERYWHERE. The volume of sales on eBay and Facebook alone easily eclipses all other venues combined.  And you forgot Amazon and Craigslist.  The discounts Voldy slabs have gotten are memorialized in multiple threads and discussions in both the GA and SA sub forums.   It's real and it's palpable.  There are people who openly avoid their slabs and services because it doesn't make good business sense to use them if you ever plan on selling. Some of the snarky, personal attacks you see are from people who knowingly bought a lesser product at a discount from a knock-off start up, and are now upset and nervous about it because the company has gone belly up and needs to be saved by a notorious card company stalwart.   You get what you pay for. I don't mind paying CGC prices for CGC slabs because I'm getting a solid product from the market leader who created the industry nearly 20 years ago.  They have EARNED that premium.  A company folding up as quickly as Voldy did and then SELLING OUT (pun intended) to who they did, only validates what I have always thought of them all along- they were a bogus also-ran just one tick above PGX.

-J.

 

 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Jaydogrules

[namisgr]

Maybe now that you've stated your opinion, and on more than one occasion already, you can allow others to state theirs, too.  Even when they disagree with yours and cite evidence and experiences that conflict with yours.  

[Foolkiller]

20 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

Cheerleader?   Not really.  I just give props where props are due. And Voldy slabs sell less EVERYWHERE. The volume of sales on eBay and Facebook alone easily eclipses all other venues combined.  And you forgot Amazon and Craigslist.  The discounts Voldy slabs have gotten are memorialized in multiple threads and discussions in both the GA and SA sub forums.   It's real and it's palpable.  There are people who openly avoid their slabs and services because it doesn't make good business sense to use them if you ever plan on selling. Some of the snarky, personal attacks you see are from people who knowingly bought a lesser product at a discount from a knock-off start up, and are now upset and nervous about it because the company has gone belly up and needs to be saved by a notorious card company stalwart.   You get what you pay for. I don't mind paying CGC prices for CGC slabs because I'm getting a solid product from the market leader who created the industry nearly 20 years ago.  They have EARNED that premium.  A company folding up as quickly as Voldy did and then SELLING OUT (pun intended) to who they did, only validates what I have always thought of them all along- they were a bogus also-ran just one tick above PGX.

-J.

 

 

I certainly prefer CGC to Voldy for a variety of reasons and I generally agree that CGC books sell better than Voldy.  With that said, I don't think the disparity is quite as wide as you might imagine.  It's also a good thing overall for collectors and consumers for there to be legitimate competition.  There are dealers who sell only Voldy slabs and there's no shortage of people clamoring to buy them.  If there's a nice book, you evaluate the same as you do any slab, you look at the book.  There's no blanket rule for me that I won't buy or sell a Voldy slab.  My preference is my experience with CGC, but there are plenty of books in Voldy slabs I have and will continue to pay the same or more than a CGC book.  It just depends on the actual book, which I believe is always the case for the educated collector, what's the slogan?  Buy the book, not the label.  

Edited October 31, 2017 by Foolkiller

[shadroch]

3 hours ago, namisgr said:

If this were true, and it doesn't appear to be based on the experiences of a couple of long-time dealers, but if it were, then it would provide a great opportunity for collectors.  Being able to purchase a book in a 'guys across the street' slab for a significant discount over a book of comparable qualities in a CGC slab is a boon to those collectors with a sharp eye for appearance and an ability to grade.  

How this aspect of competition could be bad for the hobby again makes no sense.

 

Loose lips sink ships.

[namisgr]

1 minute ago, shadroch said:

 

3 hours ago, namisgr said:

If this were true, and it doesn't appear to be based on the experiences of a couple of long-time dealers, but if it were, then it would provide a great opportunity for collectors.  Being able to purchase a book in a 'guys across the street' slab for a significant discount over a book of comparable qualities in a CGC slab is a boon to those collectors with a sharp eye for appearance and an ability to grade.  

How this aspect of competition could be bad for the hobby again makes no sense.

 

Loose lips sink ships.

 

Keep this just between the two of us.

[thirdgreenham]

On 10/24/2017 at 3:38 AM, RockMyAmadeus said:

I'm pulling numbers completely out of thin air, but I suspect NGC does in a month what CGC does in six in terms of revenue...if not more.

You really think that? 

[Martin Sinescu]

1 hour ago, Jaydogrules said:

My post really hit a nerve for you, didn't it.  Eh who cares about disputing any specific point, it's so much easier to make juvenile and vague generalities  (even though all of my points are factually correct and have been expressed by multiple people during the brief nano second that Voldy managed to be a company ). Guess the truth really does hurt.  Here's a little more for you:

When the owner and founder of a company cashes out and runs for the hills from their sinking ship, that certainly will not be met by a vote of confidence from a market that was already highly skeptical of their derivative, sub-standard product.   

My advice to you remains the same-get rid of your Voldy slabs before the bottom completely falls out.  

-J.

 

 

From the Beckett press release:

"Borock, CBCS’ co-founder and president, said Beckett’s infrastructure and global reach provides the grading company with unprecedented opportunity for growth. Borock, CEO Michael Bornstein and other key staff members will continue to serve collectors from CBCS’ offices in St. Petersburg, FL."

Also, again to address the whole purpose of your "Top Ten reasons why Voldy Foldied", they have not folded or failed as you state. That's grossly misrepresenting the situation and has zero basis in reality. Rather. you've created a complete fantasy situation so that you can take some low blows based mostly on opinion. 

Specifically, with #4 on your list, are you sure that wasn't PGX? This is the only incident I can think of when you mention verifying the signature of a dead person.

On October 29, 2017 at 4:25 PM, Jaydogrules said:

I'll just say point blank what a lot of other people are politely skirting around for some reason.  

Here are the Top Ten reasons why Voldy Foldied (aka Failed):

1)  They could never have hoped to be anything more than a distant second, look alike, also ran company.  

2)  The routine sales of its slabs at every widening discounts to comparable CGC copies only proves the point more.  

3)  Their initial practices of "restoration disclosure" on their labels was at best, sketchy, and at worse, downright duplicitous to prospective buyers of their slabs, and was obviously a low attempt to attract submissions from sellers looking to play "hide the ball" with their restored books in blue labels.  

4)  "Verifying " signatures of non-witnessed and dead people.    

5)  Consistently over grading books early (probably also had something to do with their books selling at discounts).

6)  Cheap slabs and ugly labels. 

7)  Putting their grades on raw books and not slabbing them.

8)  Never putting up their census (obviously because they didn't want people to see how low their volume really was).

9)  Clearly under-staffed and under funded- It was nearly impossible to get a live person to answer their phone at their office. 

10)  Ever decreasing presence at the various seasonal cons. 

Being bought out by Beckett isn't going to help anything either, it might make things worse.  There are LOTS of collectors in this hobby who rue some of what they perceive to be te negative influences of card collectors into the comic book marketplace, so Beckett will already be coming into this with a certain negative stigma attached.  Voldy may very well have been started hoping for a buy out- but from CGC, who obviously continued to see them as such a miniscule presence, non-factor in the market, that they either didn't see the value or the point, and concluded their virtual monopoly was secure.  I, for one, am just glad to not be holding any high dollar (or any) Voldy slabs with this announcement having been made.   

-J. 

 

 

[Tony S]

I think "that" and much more. It is hard to get actual numbers - it's not like anyone has to report in as a comic book or coin collector. But it is common knowledge that  the Coin collecting hobby is much, much larger than comic book collecting. The US Mint has millions of buyers every year. 

Perhaps easiest information to look at for our discussion is Heritage Auctions. They report their sales.  In 2016, US Coins continued being their largest category with sales of 192 million.  World and Ancient coins did 47 million and currency added another 29 million.  That's 268 million. Meanwhile, Heritage recorded 43 million in comic books, animation and comic book art.  And they note that they are the dominate player in this area - with more sales total than all other auction houses combined. 

So yeah. At least six times bigger.  And maybe more. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Tony S

[thirdgreenham]

10 minutes ago, Tony S said:

I think "that" and much more. It is hard to get actual numbers - it's not like anyone has to report in as a comic book or coin collector. But it is common knowledge that  the Coin collecting hobby is much, much larger than comic book collecting. The US Mint has millions of buyers every year. 

Perhaps easiest information to look at for our discussion is Heritage Auctions. They report their sales.  In 2016, US Coins continued being their largest category with sales of 192 million.  World and Ancient coins did 47 million and currency added another 29 million.  That's 268 million. Meanwhile, Heritage recorded 43 million in comic books, animation and comic book art.  And they note that they are the dominate player in this area - with more sales total than all other auction houses combined. 

So yeah. At least six times bigger.  And maybe more. 

 

[Wall-Crawler]

1 hour ago, Jaydogrules said:

A company folding up as quickly as Voldy did and then SELLING OUT (pun intended) to who they did, only validates what I have always thought of them all along- they were a bogus also-ran just one tick above PGX.

I have no real knowledge of the card market or Beckett. 

I  also have no idea how Voldy ownership was structured, but do we really know they (Voldy) were "folding" as in "going under" OR were they (those who own a majority stake) just made an offer they couldn't refuse and/or "bought out" by a bigger company wanting a piece of the comic grading market to grow their own business?

I am trying to understand how them being bought out is really a big deal...Do these things not happen in business all the time?How is it really any "different" than how CGC would be "structured" under the Certified Collectibles Group umbrella?

Not trying to stir the pot, just curious...

[ComicConnoisseur]

1 hour ago, Tony S said:

I think "that" and much more. It is hard to get actual numbers - it's not like anyone has to report in as a comic book or coin collector. But it is common knowledge that  the Coin collecting hobby is much, much larger than comic book collecting. The US Mint has millions of buyers every year. 

Perhaps easiest information to look at for our discussion is Heritage Auctions. They report their sales.  In 2016, US Coins continued being their largest category with sales of 192 million.  World and Ancient coins did 47 million and currency added another 29 million.  That's 268 million. Meanwhile, Heritage recorded 43 million in comic books, animation and comic book art.  And they note that they are the dominate player in this area - with more sales total than all other auction houses combined. 

So yeah. At least six times bigger.  And maybe more. 

Coins might be the bigger hobby, but in the last 30 years I have noticed more key comics and key rookie cards have debuted than key coins.

The only two key coins I can think of that came out these last 30 years are the 1997 Jackie Robinson gold and the 1995 American Eagle W. 

In comparision there are at least two key cards a year in sportscards,while there have been more than 2 keys comics these last 30 years.

Once people figure this out about modern coins we will find the coin hobby joining the stamp hobby.

Best bet going forward is the comic book, sportscard and video game hobbies over coins.

IMHO.

 

[Lazyboy]

6 hours ago, Logan510 said:

You shouldn't speak as if you know, when you are factually incorrect on certain points. 

 It's what he's good at.

[shadroch]

Does the coin hobby have anything near the size of ComicCon or the NY and Chicago Cons? I dabble in coins and went to what was presented as a major show in Las Vegas several months ago.  It wasn't much to speak of. Biggest show I ever attended, but I've been to some auctions here that drew more people.

[comicdonna]

2 hours ago, shadroch said:

Does the coin hobby have anything near the size of ComicCon or the NY and Chicago Cons? I dabble in coins and went to what was presented as a major show in Las Vegas several months ago.  It wasn't much to speak of. Biggest show I ever attended, but I've been to some auctions here that drew more people.

I think the largest in the US is FUN in Florida, and takes place in January.  It doesn't even come close to comparing to comic conventions.