So now Rob Leifeld has issues with CGC & others at cons 0

[mysterio]

Since his signature is obviously so valuable, why isn’t he buying up all the NM #87s and #98s to turn into yellow labels and make zillions if it’s so easy?

[Lucky Baru]

5 hours ago, B2D327 said:

That's because Karl Kessel "fixed" alot of Liefeld's pencils

I guess you are referencing the landscape panels turned in by Liefeld that Kessel xeroxed, cut out, glued up as standard, light boxed them and then inked.

I have one of his try-out pages for Hawk and Dove.  His background work on it is pretty good and guess what, two of the panels even have feet drawn on them.  I like his work.  Yes, he has some clunker pages.  OK.  I'll take the good with the bad.

He and 6 other guys changed comics and I tip my hat to them all for doing that.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Lucky Baru

[justafan]

17 hours ago, mysterio said:

Since his signature is obviously so valuable, why isn’t he buying up all the NM #87s and #98s to turn into yellow labels and make zillions if it’s so easy?

It's probably rhetorical but I'll bite. Because NM 87 and 98's are already well known to the market unless he can source them super cheap, he'd still only be making the difference between what he would have to pay for a copy and sell with his signature.  This way he doesn't spend all the time hunting them down and money buying and selling them (not to mention grading/shipping fees). He just sits and let people pay him the difference for his signature. 

What surprises me is the fact that so many are not fans of his art but still want his signature on a copy of NM 87 and/or 98.  I guess there's gotta be a market for it if he charges it and people are paying for it. 

[jcjames]

On 11/1/2017 at 1:31 PM, comix4fun said:

I just want to know which facilitator messed up. 

 

Is there a thread or more info on what actually transpired at Stan Lee's comicon with regards to CGC facilitators there? Updates?

 

 

[Logan510]

21 hours ago, Lucky Baru said:

I guess you are referencing the landscape panels turned in by Liefeld that Kessel xeroxed, cut out, glued up as standard, light boxed them and then inked.

I have one of his try-out pages for Hawk and Dove.  His background work on it is pretty good and guess what, two of the panels even have feet drawn on them.  I like his work.  Yes, he has some clunker pages.  OK.  I'll take the good with the bad.

He and 6 other guys changed comics and I tip my hat to them all for doing that.

What about the egregious swiping he does?

[Lucky Baru]

13 hours ago, Logan510 said:

What about the egregious swiping he does?

Sure, and I'll take that too.  Without it we wouldn't have Deadpool.

[Buzzetta]

I walked away from a lot of signing opportunities at NYCC due to the cost. 

I walked away from a lot of sketch opportunities at NYCC due tot he cost.

Let's examine the end result of people that walk away from the cost.  Eventually what happens is that it does actually cut into the money that you could be making at the show leaving you only two options:

• Lower your cost
• Keep doing the same thing and wonder why you aren't making as much money.
• Stop attending the show because you are not making any money.

I would have paid for a Skottie Young sketch but not when I see the astronomical price he wants for a sketched comic going to CGC.  I just walk away and Young does not get my money.

Here is the thing though... If I want the signature for my collection, I don't have to actually "meet" the artist.  I have noticed that MANY of these signed books (not all) go for less than the cost of obtaining the signature and grading when they are on auction on eBay, CLink, and other places and offered there.  A signed Stan Lee book can usually be obtained for less than the actual cost of Stan's signature and the cost related to signing,, grading, facilitating, and shipping.

[rogue14]

7 hours ago, Buzzetta said:

I walked away from a lot of signing opportunities at NYCC due to the cost. 

I walked away from a lot of sketch opportunities at NYCC due tot he cost.

Let's examine the end result of people that walk away from the cost.  Eventually what happens is that it does actually cut into the money that you could be making at the show leaving you only two options:

• Lower your cost
• Keep doing the same thing and wonder why you aren't making as much money.
• Stop attending the show because you are not making any money.

I would have paid for a Skottie Young sketch but not when I see the astronomical price he wants for a sketched comic going to CGC.  I just walk away and Young does not get my money.

Here is the thing though... If I want the signature for my collection, I don't have to actually "meet" the artist.  I have noticed that MANY of these signed books (not all) go for less than the cost of obtaining the signature and grading when they are on auction on eBay, CLink, and other places and offered there.  A signed Stan Lee book can usually be obtained for less than the actual cost of Stan's signature and the cost related to signing,, grading, facilitating, and shipping.

Good point. I did the same thing a few times. I guess both the artist and fan end up at a loss with the high prices.

also, not sure if it was intentional, your comment posted 4 times.

Edited November 5, 2017 by rogue14
Verbiage change

[Buzzetta]

38 minutes ago, rogue14 said:

Good point. I did the same thing a few times. I guess both the artist and fan end up at a loss with the high prices.

also, not sure if it was intentional, your comment posted 4 times.

No, I posted it as the clocks were turning back so I think the system did not know what to do with it.  It was fun to watch it as I refreshed the screen as it seemed like it was posted before other posts that were made shortly before the time change.

There is a bug in the Matrix.

[ygogolak]

On 11/2/2017 at 7:45 PM, mysterio said:

Since his signature is obviously so valuable, why isn’t he buying up all the NM #87s and #98s to turn into yellow labels and make zillions if it’s so easy?

That's like asking why the sports "handicappers" don't just play their own picks and rake in the money.

[mysterio]

23 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

That's like asking why the sports "handicappers" don't just play their own picks and rake in the money.

Not quite. Handicappers are still betting on an uncertain outcome, while Liefeld and others think that their signature has a guaranteed effect on the value of a book. 

The issue here, previously argued by others like @RockMyAmadeus more eloquently than I’ll argue it, is that the value of a signed book is driven much more by the preservation of the book than it is by the signature. Liefeld and others have gotten the impression that their signature turns everything to gold (other than just label color) and that everyone is making bank off their previously free scribbles on a comic cover. They feel they’re contributing significantly to the book’s value. The point I was making is simply that if their signatures are so valuable, then they could capture 100% of that value by submitting and selling SS books themselves. Any artist can do that, and someone like Liefeld can certainly afford to buy some 87s and 98s to reap the windfall. 

SS value isn’t only about the signature. The value a signature adds to a 4.0 is quite different than it would be to a 9.8. Many books aren’t increased in value simply because they are in yellow labels, and many yellow labels won’t ever be sold by the people getting them done. Charging blanket fees for certain books shows a misunderstanding of the value that signatures create, and trying to sell some SS books may educate creators on that. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by mysterio

[mysterio]

8 minutes ago, Ken Aldred said:

 

On 11/2/2017 at 6:45 PM, mysterio said:

Since his signature is obviously so valuable, why isn’t he buying up all the NM #87s and #98s to turn into yellow labels and make zillions if it’s so easy?

It's probably rhetorical but I'll bite. Because NM 87 and 98's are already well known to the market unless he can source them super cheap, he'd still only be making the difference between what he would have to pay for a copy and sell with his signature.  This way he doesn't spend all the time hunting them down and money buying and selling them (not to mention grading/shipping fees). He just sits and let people pay him the difference for his signature

 

Exactly, why do the work of finding a nice copy (not to mention learning to grade), paying a couple hundo for it, keeping it high grade, paying admission to the show, standing in line, hoping the creator doesn’t manhandle the book while signing, paying CGC fees, paying shipping, crossing your fingers the grade doesn’t change, then do the work of finding a buyer. Why do all that when you can just charge what you *think* your signature is worth because your perception is that everyone is making money off your signature you’re giving away for free. Because it’s just so easy to sell SS books and buy a Porsche with the fat stacks you’ll take in. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by mysterio

[ygogolak]

17 minutes ago, mysterio said:

Not quite. Handicappers are still betting on an uncertain outcome, while Liefeld and others think that their signature has a guaranteed effect on the value of a book. 

The issue here, previously argued by others like @RockMyAmadeus more eloquently than I’ll argue it, is that the value of a signed book is driven much more by the preservation of the book than it is by the signature. Liefeld and others have gotten the impression that their signature turns everything to gold (other than just label color) and that everyone is making bank off their previously free scribbles on a comic cover. They feel they’re contributing significantly to the book’s value. The point I was making is simply that if their signatures are so valuable, then they could capture 100% of that value by submitting and selling SS books themselves. Any artist can do that, and someone like Liefeld can certainly afford to buy some 87s and 98s to reap the windfall. 

SS value isn’t only about the signature. The value a signature adds to a 4.0 is quite different than it would be to a 9.8. Many books aren’t increased in value simply because they are in yellow labels, and many yellow labels won’t ever be sold by the people getting them done. Charging blanket fees for certain books shows a misunderstanding of the value that signatures create, and trying to sell some SS books may educate creators on that. 

New Mutants #98

9.8 $750

9.8 SS $1,100

I don't think the price difference has anything to do with the fact that it's "preserved".

[mysterio]

2 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

New Mutants #98

9.8 $750

9.8 SS $1,100

I don't think the price difference has anything to do with the fact that it's "preserved".

Ok, then get the data for an 8.0.

[mysterio]

7 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

New Mutants #98

9.8 $750

9.8 SS $1,100

I don't think the price difference has anything to do with the fact that it's "preserved".

Alternatively, buy a graded 9.8 and have it come back a SS 9.6. Would you make money in that scenario?

[ygogolak]

27 minutes ago, mysterio said:

Alternatively, buy a graded 9.8 and have it come back a SS 9.6. Would you make money in that scenario?

So you're saying you would be betting on an uncertain outcome. Just like my handicapper analogy that you dismissed?

[ygogolak]

35 minutes ago, mysterio said:

Ok, then get the data for an 8.0.

Why would you get an 8.0 signed to slab and sell? I think we can all agree that's not a good decision, let alone thinking of even getting an 8.0 slabbed. It will sell higher raw and be less work.

[mysterio]

Just now, ygogolak said:

So you're saying you would be betting on an uncertain outcome. Just like my handicapper analogy that you dismissed?

To an extent, but the creator doesn’t see it that way. They think their signature = guaranteed value. The creator assumes no risk, the person getting the signature assumes all of it. Handicappers betting on their own calls assume all the risk. So in your analogy the handicapper is not the same as the creator. 

[mysterio]

Just now, ygogolak said:

Why would you get an 8.0 signed to slab and sell? I think we can all agree that's not a good decision, let alone thinking of even getting an 8.0 slabbed. It will sell higher raw and be less work.

That’s my point. The book is going to determine the value. The signature is a factor in that value, sure, but different grades for the book (the preservation) drive value more than the signature does. 

[ygogolak]

2 minutes ago, mysterio said:

To an extent, but the creator doesn’t see it that way. They think their signature = guaranteed value. The creator assumes no risk, the person getting the signature assumes all of it. Handicappers betting on their own calls assume all the risk. So in your analogy the handicapper is not the same as the creator. 

I'm not talking about those creating the line, I'm talking about all of the commercials and emails for people that will sell you their picks.