So now Rob Leifeld has issues with CGC & others at cons 0

[Lucky Baru]

I don't think that Liefeld looks at it as you guys stated.  He's just trying to generate income.  He keeps increasing the cost that his signature to x amount.  Fanboys line up to pay that amount.  The fanboy's action reinforces his belief.  Thus, he keeps charging that amount or keeps increasing it.  Once they stop lining up he will lower his price to capture whatever his income goal for the weekend happens to be.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Lucky Baru

[towards2112]

Seems like certain facets of the hobby have become 'only about the money'.

[mysterio]

10 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

I'm not talking about those creating the line, I'm talking about all of the commercials and emails for people that will sell you their picks.

How is that not the same as what I said? The people on the commercials would assume risk, creators getting guaranteed money for a signature assume no risk unless they submit books for SS themselves. 

[ygogolak]

3 minutes ago, mysterio said:

That’s my point. The book is going to determine the value. The signature is a factor in that value, sure, but different grades for the book (the preservation) drive value more than the signature does. 

I'll buy that for older books, where lower grade is more prevelant. No way I'm buying people buy 8.0 Coppers and Moderns because they are slabbed. There are too many copies of most of these books in high grade.

[mysterio]

10 minutes ago, Lucky Baru said:

I don't think that Liefeld looks at it as you guys stated.  He's just trying to generate income.  He keeps increasing the cost that his signature to x amount.  Fanboys line up to pay that amount.  The fanboy's action reinforces his belief.  Thus, he keeps charging that amount or keeps increasing it.  Once they stop lining up he will lower his price to capture whatever his income goal for the weekend happens to be.

True, but that fee is based off of his belief that his signature makes books worth more money. It’s all about capturing some of those Benjamins he thinks he’s generating for others. 

[ygogolak]

2 minutes ago, mysterio said:

How is that not the same as what I said? The people on the commercials would assume risk, creators getting guaranteed money for a signature assume no risk unless they submit books for SS themselves. 

I'm lost...

What risk does someone selling a sports bet assume? Their customer won't come back? Big deal, they got them once or twice and made their money.

[Lucky Baru]

Just now, mysterio said:

True, but that fee is based off of his belief that his signature makes books worth more money. It’s all about capturing some of those Benjamins he thinks he’s generating for others. 

I don't think so.  His belief is based upon him going to conventions for 30+ years and having fanboys hand over their money to him when he charges a certain amount for something.

[mysterio]

Just now, ygogolak said:

I'll buy that for older books, where lower grade is more prevelant. No way I'm buying people buy 8.0 Coppers and Moderns because they are slabbed. There are too many copies of most of these books in high grade.

That’s the point I was making. Signing any random copy of NM #98 isn’t going to increase value by the same amount. Signatures add more value in a 9.8 holder than they do to an 8.0 because the condition of the book matters more than the signature does. 

[mysterio]

4 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

I'm lost...

What risk does someone selling a sports bet assume? Their customer won't come back? Big deal, they got them once or twice and made their money.

I’m lost, you said the guy on the commercial betting on their own picks. They can lose money. Isn’t that what you meant? Maybe I misread your point, but if I did how was your point the same as Liefeld’s position in this?

Edited November 5, 2017 by mysterio

[mysterio]

5 minutes ago, Lucky Baru said:

I don't think so.  His belief is based upon him going to conventions for 30+ years and having fanboys hand over their money to him when he charges a certain amount for something.

Nobody charged for signatures prior to CGC that I’m aware of. This is a recent phenomenon. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by mysterio

[Lucky Baru]

5 minutes ago, mysterio said:

Nobody charged for signatures prior to CGC that I’m aware of. 

30 some odd years ago, I stood in line at WonderCon and purchased an ashcan from Rob's studio.  I moved forward in the line and Rob signed the ashcan.  The same things happened at other booths.  Like at Chaos Comics I stood in line and purchased books and then the entire team that did Lady Death signed the books.  I was given a certificate stating that all the signatures were real.  Did I pay for the books, the signatures, or a combination of both?  I think it was a combination of both and that was WAY before CGC jumped into the game.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Lucky Baru

[mysterio]

7 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

I'm lost...

What risk does someone selling a sports bet assume? Their customer won't come back? Big deal, they got them once or twice and made their money.

Rereading this I can see your point and I misread it earlier. Yes, a guy hawking secret sports info for people to buy for bets isn’t that different than a guy selling an auto. They are both selling something that may create value for those that buy. 

My point was that if both the guy selling those betting tips and Liefeld really believed what they are claiming then they should put their money where their mouth is. Bet those tips and make bank, and corner the market with their own SS books and buy a yacht. Piece of cake. 

[mysterio]

1 minute ago, Lucky Baru said:

30 some odd years ago, I stood in line at WonderCon and purchased an ashcan from Rob's studio.  I moved forward in the line and Rob signed the ashcan.  The same things happened at other booths.  Like at Chaos Comics I stood in line and purchased books and then the entire team that did Lady Death signed the books.  I was given a certificate stating that all the signatures were real.  Did I pay for the books, the signatures, or a combination of both?  I think it was a combination of both and that was WAY before CGC jumped into the game.

If you walked away after buying the book you would have paid the same amount, so I’d say the signatures were free unless they charged extra for them. 

[Lucky Baru]

Just now, mysterio said:

If you walked away after buying the book you would have paid the same amount, so I’d say the signatures were free unless they charged extra for them. 

I wouldn't have bought the books without the signatures.  At the time that is what made them collectable.  You couldn't get that unless you attended a show.  The LCS would trade for them so they could resell them.

[mysterio]

3 minutes ago, Lucky Baru said:

I wouldn't have bought the books without the signatures.  At the time that is what made them collectable.  You couldn't get that unless you attended a show.  The LCS would trade for them so they could resell them.

I’m not saying you should have walked away, I’m saying you could have. 20 years ago no comic creator would have charged for the signature only. Stan signed for free for decades  

Did you get any books you already owned signed in the same line? Did they charge extra to sign them?

Edited November 5, 2017 by mysterio

[Lucky Baru]

4 minutes ago, mysterio said:

I’m not saying you should have walked away, I’m saying you could have. 20 years ago no comic creator would have charged for the signature only.

Did you get any books you already owned in the same line? Did they charge extra to sign them?

I don't think you understood what I wrote.  Without the signatures the books would have had the same value as the Lady Death sold in a store.  It was the same book at the show or at the store.  30+ years ago eBay didn't exist.  To create a collectable that was signed by a creative team made it a one off.  Also, you got the printed certificate that you put in the bag and board to prove it was real.  The LCS stores in my area would trade for the ones we brought back to then sell in their stores.   Unless those LCS somehow set up a signing there wasn't a way to get a signed book.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Lucky Baru

[mysterio]

14 minutes ago, Lucky Baru said:

I don't think you understood what I wrote.  Without the signatures the books would have had the same value as the Lady Death sold in a store.  It was the same book at the show or at the store.  30+ years ago eBay didn't exist.  To create a collectable that was signed by a creative team made it a one off.  Also, you got the printed certificate that you put in the bag and board to prove it was real.  The LCS stores in my area would trade for the ones we brought back to then sell in their stores.   Unless those LCS somehow set up a signing there wasn't a way to get a signed book.

What I understood from what you wrote is that you bought (i.e. paid for) the book, and then the creative team signed it. Sure, the signatures added value. Not disputing that. But unless I missed something you bought the book and then they signed it for no additional charge. That is not selling signatures, that is providing signatures on an item you purchased at no additional markup over what you would have paid at your LCS for the same item. The creative team created value for you at no extra cost to you.

That scenario + CGC + eBay = creators thinking they need to charge because they create value with signatures. 

[Lucky Baru]

6 hours ago, mysterio said:

What I understood from what you wrote is that you bought (i.e. paid for) the book, and then the creative team signed it. Sure, the signatures added value. Not disputing that. But unless I missed something you bought the book and then they signed it for no additional charge. That is not selling signatures, that is providing signatures on an item you purchased at no additional markup over what you would have paid at your LCS for the same item. The creative team created value for you at no extra cost to you.

That scenario + CGC + eBay = creators thinking they need to charge because they create value with signatures. 

Maybe not selling the signatures as you want to shape your side of the discussion.  I know that I wouldn't have made the purchase nor waited in those lines if those signatures weren't being put on the books.

Also, to get back to the true discussion at hand.  Situations as I have described have taught artist/creators that fanboys will wait in line for their signatures and will pay for that experience if the fanboys believe it adds value.  Stan the Man didn't start out by charging $125.00 for his signature.  Fanboys taught him and his handlers that was the limit they could charge this last time by waiting in line for hours and forking over their money.  The fanboys are as big a part of this issue as anyone else.

[mysterio]

21 minutes ago, Lucky Baru said:

Maybe not selling the signatures as you want to shape your side of the discussion.  I know that I wouldn't have made the purchase nor waited in those lines if those signatures weren't being put on the books.

Also, to get back to the true discussion at hand.  Situations as I have described have taught artist/creators that fanboys will wait in line for their signatures and will pay for that experience if the fanboys believe it adds value.  Stan the Man didn't start out by charging $125.00 for his signature.  Fanboys taught him and his handlers that was the limit they could charge this last time by waiting in line for hours and forking over their money.  The fanboys are as big a part of this issue as anyone else.

When Stan signed for free, for decades, the lines would be hundreds of people long. Line length didn’t lead to the adoption of signing fees nearly as much as CGC and SS did. 

[Lucky Baru]

57 minutes ago, mysterio said:

When Stan signed for free, for decades, the lines would be hundreds of people long. Line length didn’t lead to the adoption of signing fees nearly as much as CGC and SS did. 

If you say so.  Do you know Stan or his handlers?  From your statement you seem to have inside information on the artist, the creators, and their handlers.