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"Christie’s Is Selling This Painting for $100 Million. They Say It’s by Leonardo. I Have Doubts. Big Doubts." - Jerry Saltz
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49 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Bronty said:

I kinda like it pre conservation.   The face looks more convincing.  The hand is very well done in both versions but then apparently that's the area that had little resto

Agreed 100%. When reading the article posted today I was expecting more of a mess than this. 

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The best line from the article Gene posted was about how the original owner found out his 127 million dollar sale was already being shopped for more, and he was pissed that he only turned a 1k investment (+ undisclosed conservation fees) into a 127 million payday (split 3 ways). I learned this lesson early on in the tribal art market where I was told the same piece coming from me as a private collector simply had a different value in the market than the same piece being displayed in a Rue de Beaux Arts gallery. The lack of this effect (for the most part) in the comic, comic art, and collectible toy hobbies is one of the major plus factors for me.

Edited by cstojano
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18 hours ago, cstojano said:

Agreed 100%. When reading the article posted today I was expecting more of a mess than this. 

It looks like a master's hand pre conservation.   Post conservation it does not (the face anyways).    But, I get it, 450m reasons to fix it up.

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18 hours ago, cstojano said:

 I learned this lesson early on in the tribal art market where I was told the same piece coming from me as a private collector simply had a different value in the market than the same piece being displayed in a Rue de Beaux Arts gallery. 

I may have a limited understanding of the fine and tribal markets, but I think that kind of thinking is more and more outdated every day. 

Museums, galleries, etc used to be able to add some shine in a pre internet world.   

These days?   I don't see it.    I see Banksy and KAWS and whomever else getting attention and results by shredding canvases and putting a spin on the Simpsons.     

Its all about getting attention.    It always was, but in today's world its the attention of the collectors and the everyman that counts not the museum director or gallery owner.    Attention and money first.   Quality and critical acclaim second.    Kinda like comic art ;)

To put it another way, the museums and the galleries now lag popular opinion.     I get the sense they used to lead it, but I don't get that sense now.

Perhaps that's a bit of a ramble, but more and more I think markets are trending towards not caring who the seller is (unless they are a celebrity).   

And I think art markets are rewarding popularity over "taste" making some gallery's ideas of "taste" less and less relevant.     

I think you just happened to deal with some arzhole who thinks its still 1987.

Edited by Bronty
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44 minutes ago, Bronty said:

I may have a limited understanding of the fine and tribal markets, but I think that kind of thinking is more and more outdated every day. 

Museums, galleries, etc used to be able to add some shine in a pre internet world.   

These days?   I don't see it.    I see Banksy and KAWS and whomever else getting attention and results by shredding canvases and putting a spin on the Simpsons.     

Its all about getting attention.    It always was, but in today's world its the attention of the collectors and the everyman that counts not the museum director or gallery owner.    Attention and money first.   Quality and critical acclaim second.    Kinda like comic art ;)

To put it another way, the museums and the galleries now lag popular opinion.     I get the sense they used to lead it, but I don't get that sense now.

Perhaps that's a bit of a ramble, but more and more I think markets are trending towards not caring who the seller is (unless they are a celebrity).   

And I think art markets are rewarding popularity over "taste" making some gallery's ideas of "taste" less and less relevant.     

I think you just happened to deal with some arzhole who thinks its still 1987.

Maybe there's a little more to it than just that. The tribal art market is filled with fakes and there is even debate about where the line between fake and real actually exists (not for this forum). The point is that piece X in my hands has less value because I don't have the gallery's reputation behind the piece. But you are correct because even the galleries are lagging the big auction houses. To your last sentence, it was not just one person and 1987 is putting it kindly. There is almost no real web presence for this stuff, no real forum, few Facebook groups. It is all underground. Most dealers that even bother with a website rarely update and certainly don't publish prices. So you end up emailing these people and made to feel like a tool when they tell you some outlandish price. Needless to say, while I still watch the big auctions, I haven't bought a thing in nearly a decade now. 

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26 minutes ago, cstojano said:

Maybe there's a little more to it than just that. The tribal art market is filled with fakes and there is even debate about where the line between fake and real actually exists (not for this forum). The point is that piece X in my hands has less value because I don't have the gallery's reputation behind the piece. But you are correct because even the galleries are lagging the big auction houses. To your last sentence, it was not just one person and 1987 is putting it kindly. There is almost no real web presence for this stuff, no real forum, few Facebook groups. It is all underground. Most dealers that even bother with a website rarely update and certainly don't publish prices. So you end up emailing these people and made to feel like a tool when they tell you some outlandish price. Needless to say, while I still watch the big auctions, I haven't bought a thing in nearly a decade now. 

that sounds like a mess for sure.  

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2 hours ago, cstojano said:

Maybe there's a little more to it than just that. The tribal art market is filled with fakes and there is even debate about where the line between fake and real actually exists (not for this forum). The point is that piece X in my hands has less value because I don't have the gallery's reputation behind the piece. But you are correct because even the galleries are lagging the big auction houses. To your last sentence, it was not just one person and 1987 is putting it kindly. There is almost no real web presence for this stuff, no real forum, few Facebook groups. It is all underground. Most dealers that even bother with a website rarely update and certainly don't publish prices. So you end up emailing these people and made to feel like a tool when they tell you some outlandish price. Needless to say, while I still watch the big auctions, I haven't bought a thing in nearly a decade now. 

What is tribal art?

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1 minute ago, Peter L said:

What is tribal art?

Mostly African and Oceanic hand carved objects, some call it traditional art, some non-Western art, some primitive art (though not anymore). Oceanic art is the best in the world, IMO.

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5 hours ago, cstojano said:

Mostly African and Oceanic hand carved objects, some call it traditional art, some non-Western art, some primitive art (though not anymore). Oceanic art is the best in the world, IMO.

I dig it and got some great stuff about...ten years ago myself (lol). It's all 100 years old plus or minus and as real as it is fake...in the sense that it was probably faked that many years ago. Not true ceremonial stuff. That's the way this thing works. From there I went over to Haitian art, which is so battered and beaten down, the fakes and the real stuff sells for about the same money, so the 'good eye' picker wins out.

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