A "collector" in a world of investors 4 4

[10¢ John (formerly Gopher John)]

I lurk on these boards several times a week, but haven't posted in years.  While there are some really compelling things that I like to see and read in this forum, I really hate the large proportion of the conversation that is about values and whether a movie release will result in a bump in prices.  And there is a certain degree of "one-upsmanship".  Whenever someone posts a comic they are particularly pleased with, it is just a matter of minutes before someone else is compelled to show off their "better" copy.  What if you were a beginning collector - happily posting the IronMan #3 that you found in a box at your parents house that you fondly remembered buying off the rack only to have it bumped to the next page within minutes because it became the stepping off point for people to show off their minty TOS #39's.  Shouldn't this forum be just as much about the guy with the $40 book that he would never sell as it is about the guy with the $20,000 book he bought last year for $15,000 and will sell next year for $20,000?

I started reading comics in the late 70's and collecting in the early 80's.  I was in awe when I came across some books with a 10-cent cover price and from about 1983 onward I only bought 10-centers and a few of the earliest Marvel 12-centers.  I found it a challenge to get all of the 10-cent Suicide Squad books in Brave and Bold.  Frankly, I think I appreciated them more when they were a bit of an obscurity than when they became a commodity after a movie title was announced (that has nearly nothing to do with the original series).  I love all of the development of Superman's universe that took place in the various Superman titles in the late 50's and early 60's.  Because some book or list identifies issue No xxx as a "key issue" it gets so much love and monetary valuation from the comics community while the issue just before and just after it are barely even desired - even though the stories and artwork in those books are just as good.

And condition...  I love a book I can pull out of its bag and read.  I love the sweet-acidic smell of decaying pulp. 

I grew up in the next town over from Boulder, Colorado and I would see Chuck Rozanski all of the time.  I bought a number of comics directly from him.  Like a lot of other people, Chuck told me "collect what you love and don't worry about the value."  Now it seems like so few people "collect" comics.  The view now is just like the stock market - buy low and sell high.  Buy all of the Katy Keene's now (on 2nd thought, only the "key" issues) before they announce a movie release!  Like Katy Keene?  Does it matter?

On the sales threads, you can regularly see things like B&B 28.  I still need a decent #33, but no one will ever post one for sale until Cave Carson starts "heating up."

I have been lucky.  I have some books that are purported to be quite valuable.  Part of me suspects, though, that once Baby Boomers start dying off and their kids don't know what to do with those boxes and boxes of dad's old comic books (and there is no room for them in their tiny houses), they will be a glut in the market and the value will fall through.  Has anyone ever heard of the  Tulip Collapse of 1637?  They were just flowers with no intrinsic value.   I for one, won't like my B&B #28 any less if/when its only valued at a few hundred dollars even though it might be in the $1,000's right now (especially since  I bought for a hundred dollars years ago).

Sorry to be a grumpy old man (is 47 old?).  My ranting only applies to a portion of the people on this board.  There are a ton of others who really seem to love their books regardless of what the rest of the world values them at.  "Silver" comes to mind - I love that guys drive to complete a series!

Are there any other collectors that are turned off by the "investor" point of view, or is it just me.

end of rant.

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by John Stark

[*Bronze age fan*]

I am also a collector in a world full of investors. ??

[KirbyJack]

Yes you are, Frankie! I still feel like I'm a collector, but the problem is I've got everything I actively collect. I think I know how the OP feels tho - the key obsession is getting crazy. It does mean good deals on run fillers, however!

 

[Domo Arigato]

1 hour ago, John Stark said:

 

Are there any other collectors that are turned off by the "investor" point of view, or is it just me.

 

Yep.

I collected as a kid and then drifted away from it for a couple of decades (but kept all my old books stored at my parents house).  I started thinking in the late 90's about collecting again and thought I'd check out eBay and see what they had.  Opened me back up to it and I really enjoyed buying books at auction.  It was fun and you either out bid others for the book or waited for the next copy to show up if the bidding got too high.  It was fun and I enjoyed it. 

But now, eBay sucks the high hard one.  Most of the sellers just list their books at absolutely ridiculous high prices and I don't even waste my time going there anymore.  Sure, I could contact people with offers on every book and search various alternate sellers websites, but with (what seems like) everyone trying to squeeze every last penny out of every book I'm interested in (which are primarily non-key bronze of no significance), it just became too much like a job.  And no thanks.....I've already got one job that I don't particularly enjoy......I don't need another one.  It used to be fun, and now it's not......so for the most part, I've stopped collecting again.  Couldn't tell you the last time I bought a comic book.

[SC22]

Yes I get your point but today when a auction closes we normally talk about the sales prices. But yes enjoy the books it's a hobby after all and a good one to be part of!!

Edited November 16, 2017 by SC22

[1950's war comics]

@John Stark ...that was a great post ! i

[grebal]

3 hours ago, John Stark said:

 Part of me suspects, though, that once Baby Boomers start dying off and their kids don't know what to do with those boxes and boxes of dad's old comic books (and there is no room for them in their tiny houses), they will be a glut in the market and the value will fall through.  Has anyone ever heard of the  Tulip Collapse of 1637?  They were just flowers with no intrinsic value.   I for one, won't like my B&B #28 any less if/when its only valued at a few hundred dollars even though it might be in the $1,000's right now (especially since  I bought for a hundred dollars years ago).

 

Good first post; yes, the famous tulip bulb crash was raised in at least half the many conversations invariably including predictions of an impending 'baby boom crash' that I've read in the 20 months I've been reading the CGC boards.

You probably ought to avoid the Silver forum, particularly the "club" threads, that epitomize your main peeve - some (like myself) will contribute their meagre (lower grade) entry into the 'club', but the vast majority of replies either serve as a support group for owners of high grade copies that use the thread as a kind of check-ticker-symbol substitute, or proud owners of higher grade copies rightly sharing their admirable books with like-minded fans.

[VintageComics]

1 hour ago, SC22 said:

Yes I get your point but today when a auction closes we normally talk about the sales prices. But yes enjoy the books it's a hobby after all and a good one to be part of!!

It's only a relatively small handful of the same people talking prices.

[VintageComics]

4 hours ago, John Stark said:

I lurk on these boards several times a week, but haven't posted in years.  While there are some really compelling things that I like to see and read in this forum, I really hate the large proportion of the conversation that is about values and whether a movie release will result in a bump in prices.

While I agree with you wholeheartedly (I'm a lifelong collector and relatively newly turned full time dealer but I still miss the love for comics without the values) the discussion about values is a necessary byproduct once a hobby goes mainstream.

Values drive in more viewers.

Would the hobby be better without all the speculation? Tough to say, but at the same time it would also not be as easy to find books we want.

So to me, ultimately it's like the advent of social media - it gets really messy out there but if you can choose how to use it to your benefit, it can be fun. You just have to filter out all the stuff being thrown at you that you don't want to see.

I remember being 11, 12 maybe 13 years old in the early 1980's and sitting with a calculator in hand adding up what it would cost me to own every book in the runs I wanted to complete (mainstream Marvel titles). I remember coming to a value of something like $21,000 and trying to figure out how I was going to save that money to be able to by all the books I wanted. There was little thought about reselling the books - it was all about collecting out of a love for the stories.

Unfortunately, this site has lost it's 'innocence'. I joined back in 2004, a couple of years after it formed and it was very different. While people talked about values in the past, they mostly spoke about surprising sales prices out of general interest.

This site has likely become the de facto investment site as people speculate not only about values but about future interest, movie possibilities and other angles.

I don't love it but it is a necessary side to the hobby.

 

[SC22]

35 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

It's only a relatively small handful of the same people talking prices.

Yes I am aware why does that stop others from talking about the hobby they enjoy makes no sens to me. Simply talk about what you feel like as long as it is comic book related.

I enjoy the days when a major auction ends so I talk about the results I consider important to share.

Edited November 17, 2017 by SC22

[Shoomanfoo]

All very good points here. I read and collected since a child. 1st comic was Hulk 340 because the cover.

I stopped collecting many years but investing has brought me back to collecting. I try to get what I think is a sound long-term investment in good grade. Some I sell...some I keep and put on my wall.

I just love the medium and am so excited about its revival even if most of it is superficial.

Geek for life!

[bc]

Just a few years older than the OP, but fall into the collector group. 

I see investors a little differently. They are a natural by-product of a healthy market. I'd rather have more investors than speculators (not that this hobby doesn't have those as well).

Collectors are naturally competitive, thus there is some degree of one-upmanship displayed here. But I think most are comfortable with the ability to share with others who can appreciate it - from the copy you bought off the spinner rack as a kid to the latest grail that broke GPA.

Either way - great post and welcome !

-bc

 

[FineCollector]

4 minutes ago, bc said:

Just a few years older than the OP, but fall into the collector group. 

I see investors a little differently. They are a natural by-product of a healthy market. I'd rather have more investors than speculators (not that this hobby doesn't have those as well)

Investors soak up multiples of keys, hide them away, and watch prices go up as others search for those books.  That's great for the established collector who has what he wants, not so good for the guys still hunting for their first copy.

I get fed up with these boards from time to time, but it helps when you get to know the players.  I remember being annoyed when Nova #1 was the hot ticket, and 1Cool was buying every copy he could find here.  My initial impression was "how many copies does this dork need?" but it turns out he contributes thoughtfully to discussions, and runs a booth that caters to all budgets, so he's not as big a dork as I thought! 

There are two things that still steam me up around here:

1) people who use the message boards as a marketplace and "don't have time" to join the discussions.

2) people who think the best book is the one with the highest price tag.  The logic is a book worth $500 is better than owning ten books at $50.  My logic is, if you can drop  $1000 on a comic book, you can afford a bigger fkn house to put them in, so stop crying about cheap books taking up too much space!

[thehumantorch]

Nice post John Stark. 

Unfortunately collecting comics has become cool and flipping books popular.  The hobby has changed and the type of collectors and how they collect has changed.  Run builders are an endangered species, their natural habitat is being destroyed, they're having trouble finding mates and producing little run builders for the future. 

[SC22]

2 hours ago, VintageComics said:

While I agree with you wholeheartedly (I'm a lifelong collector and relatively newly turned full time dealer but I still miss the love for comics without the values) the discussion about values is a necessary byproduct once a hobby goes mainstream.

Values drive in more viewers.

Would the hobby be better without all the speculation? Tough to say, but at the same time it would also not be as easy to find books we want.

So to me, ultimately it's like the advent of social media - it gets really messy out there but if you can choose how to use it to your benefit, it can be fun. You just have to filter out all the stuff being thrown at you that you don't want to see.

I remember being 11, 12 maybe 13 years old in the early 1980's and sitting with a calculator in hand adding up what it would cost me to own every book in the runs I wanted to complete (mainstream Marvel titles). I remember coming to a value of something like $21,000 and trying to figure out how I was going to save that money to be able to by all the books I wanted. There was little thought about reselling the books - it was all about collecting out of a love for the stories.

Unfortunately, this site has lost it's 'innocence'. I joined back in 2004, a couple of years after it formed and it was very different. While people talked about values in the past, they mostly spoke about surprising sales prices out of general interest.

This site has likely become the de facto investment site as people speculate not only about values but about future interest, movie possibilities and other angles.

I don't love it but it is a necessary side to the hobby.

 

Nicely put!! Almost all of us that talk about the financial side of this hobby also love our books. To say we don't is because most people don't know us on a personal basis. I have loved this hobby since the year 1990 and sports cards as well. I don't think I have anything material that I can say that about......actually I know I don't.

I started in SA books because I had a family member give me their collection (about 1000 books all of witch where very much loved and in mid to lower grades) he picked up during the 1960's as young adult. I never enjoyed the more current stuff and as far as GA I have learned to enjoy it from afar because I simply never wanted to pay the price to join that club of collectors. My all-time favorite series is Detective Comics and Batman. I could have purchased those key issues 20 years ago but I did not.

The only place I get to talk about the SA key books is on this site. For the simple fact in real life I keep my stuff very private and only 1-2 people that are very close to me know what my collection consists of.

The family member who gave me the SA books also has about 2000 GA books (none a single one is graded he likes them the way they are and that is how he grew up with books) all in very high grade but they are 95%+ Walt Disney books. He has a few SA key books as well like TTA27 that would grade a 4.0 and a Avengers 1 that would grade a 7.0 to 8.0. They where given to him by a friend that knew he would very much love them. He also has a bunch of the very rare comic book hero toys from the 1940's and 1950's he proudly displays all non restored and in spectacular condition. One day they will all go up for sale including his 2000 GA books. He is getting old so he will have to decide what to do.

One major obstacle for him to sell is he lives in Canada so having to move 2000 books is a whole lot of work and time. I know he has them all listed down on a file so that makes it easy to know what he has. I don't even know if he would sell he is not the type of person that likes parting with his things and still enjoys them very much. But you never know the extra funds are always tempting.

Edited November 17, 2017 by SC22

[SC22]

22 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

Nice post John Stark. 

Unfortunately collecting comics has become cool and flipping books popular.  The hobby has changed and the type of collectors and how they collect has changed.  Run builders are an endangered species, their natural habitat is being destroyed, they're having trouble finding mates and producing little run builders for the future. 

I don't think so that is extreme a LOT of people attend conventions and buy books for their series same goes for auctions houses we simply don't talk about them here. I would love to do a run of ASM from 1 to 20 and X-Men from 1 to 10 but my house has no room for that kind of display and especially not the type of display I would really want to have.

Edited November 17, 2017 by SC22

[thehumantorch]

27 minutes ago, SC22 said:

I don't think so that is extreme a LOT of people attend conventions and buy books for their series same goes for auctions houses we simply don't talk about them here. I would love to do a run of ASM from 1 to 20 and X-Men from 1 to 10 but my house has no room for that kind of display and especially not the type of display I would really want to have.

I am kidding to a degree but the number of collectors building long runs is shrinking.  

Edited November 17, 2017 by thehumantorch

[SC22]

7 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

I am kidding to a degree but the number of collectors building long runs is shrinking.  

Nobody knows that for sure every day books sell on places like Ebay. It may look that way in some venues but who really knows. Look threw ComicLink (just one example) tons of non key books sell so I am assuming they are for set builders. Just look at 2 easy ones Detective Comics (1-100) and ASM (1-50) they are always almost sold out. And that is just 2 examples.

Edited November 17, 2017 by SC22

[miraclemet]

My main collecting title, Space Adventures, will never "blow up", not that I care...

[ThothAmon]

To the OP I say to itch his own. I have been collecting since the mid seventies and even as a young kid it was always with an eye on Overstreet. The truth of the matter is that speculators will sooner or later be left without a chair and I will make up for any losses with volume.