When will the “comic con” bubble burst? 5 5

[musicmeta]

On 11/19/2017 at 9:27 AM, Treco said:

• So what you're saying is that there needs to be a movement initiated by dealers to organize cons that cater to the book buyer?   Yes please. Growing up, the best thing was going to a rented hall somewhere that had nothing but table after table of dealers with piles of boxes. No decoration, no cosplayers....just hard-core nerds flipping through back issues. A bit nostalgic, yes...but it sure was fun. 

Yes, just show me "ONLY" the comics! 

[VintageComics]

13 hours ago, musicmeta said:

On 11/19/2017 at 10:27 AM, Treco said:

• So what you're saying is that there needs to be a movement initiated by dealers to organize cons that cater to the book buyer?   Yes please. Growing up, the best thing was going to a rented hall somewhere that had nothing but table after table of dealers with piles of boxes. No decoration, no cosplayers....just hard-core nerds flipping through back issues. A bit nostalgic, yes...but it sure was fun. 

Yes, just show me "ONLY" the comics! 

As with all things cyclical, those shows are coming back.

 

[Primetime]

Small shows are back in the mix. I suspect the true comic book collectors rather not pay expensive costs for travel/convention passes and deal with all the cosplay. Rather, they are content box diving and shopping in a smaller room of 10-20 pure vintage comic dealers. Terry's Show and the Berkeley Con are prime examples of this. 

Edited November 23, 2017 by Primetime

[TheFifthHorseman]

8 hours ago, VintageComics said:

As with all things cyclical, those shows are coming back.

 

The tides rise and fall

[ygogolak]

On 11/22/2017 at 7:14 PM, TheFifthHorseman said:

Hm, I'm buying the book I want from the person that has it.

They both have it. I Understand that a lot of people on here are looking for really obscure Silver Age stuff, but that's too rich for my blood.

At least right now.

[reddwarf666222]

On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 8:05 AM, mysterio said:

With the sheer number of shows these days it would appear to any outside observer that we’re experiencing a golden age of cons that is coinciding with the golden age of comic movies. Seemingly every weekend you could go to a con, especially in a place like Texas, and if flights weren’t an issue you could probably attend a large show (Wizard, Fan Expo, Reed, Heroes & Villains, etc) damn near every weekend someplace in the US. 

However, as anyone who goes to these shows to shop for books knows, comics tend to be pretty scarce at the average “comic con” compared to years past. These shows have evolved into a generic mutated shell of their former selves. 

Its been our experience that comic sales at the larger shows have been trending to be, at best, very hit or miss. I’ve heard similar set of complaints from a variety of other vendors on different online forums. I can’t help but think that this could be due, at least in part, to oversaturation. Cons are no longer once or twice a year special events that you save up for months to attend and spend like a drunken sailor, now you go once a month and spend a few bucks. This change in spending trends is not reflected in the ever escalating vendor table fees and entry fees.

With Wizard (once again) seemingly on the ropes I’m left to wonder if we’ve passed “peak con” or will very soon. 

I think the issue is simple. How many times can such and such talent appear at a location before they are oversaturated. In our new world these creators are making 30 to 40 appearances a year. In some cities these creators are making 2 to 4 appearances a year.

Now think of these actor/actresses also making a lot of appearances and the number of entertainment guests a show can bring in. Again an actor could make a few appearances in a city as well each year.

After 2 to 3 years a lot of shows are repeating their guests and after 5 years well it's hard to bring someone that a show in the area has not brought into the area within a 5 year span.

What does this mean for a congoer and the guests?

Less people who will want to get an autograph or photo op with that guest. Why? Because the fan already has an autograph and photo with that guest. The autograph market is dying as a result.

As a result  there is much less to bring a fan into the show and a lot of the shows have become stale.

Look at Phoenix Comicon off of their first five entertainment guests listed only one person is new. What is the attraction to bring me to the show?

Honestly I think a major fallout is going to happen as a result and it will take 5 years to recover to get back to some form of decency.

[Semicentennial]

On 11/20/2017 at 2:01 PM, Lethal_Collector said:

Once people get tired of the same old swag every year, they'll stop.  I stopped once they brought in tons of swag and less and less comic dealers showed up.

 

 

Jerome

I had the same train of thought, people will get tired of the same thing, back in the late 1990's and early 2000's.  It hasn't died down at all and seems to have grown to have taken over the cons.  I would like to go to one of these bigger cons some day, but I don't see that happening again for a long time.

[oakman29]

On 11/24/2017 at 2:15 PM, reddwarf666222 said:

I think the issue is simple. How many times can such and such talent appear at a location before they are oversaturated. In our new world these creators are making 30 to 40 appearances a year. In some cities these creators are making 2 to 4 appearances a year.

Now think of these actor/actresses also making a lot of appearances and the number of entertainment guests a show can bring in. Again an actor could make a few appearances in a city as well each year.

After 2 to 3 years a lot of shows are repeating their guests and after 5 years well it's hard to bring someone that a show in the area has not brought into the area within a 5 year span.

What does this mean for a congoer and the guests?

Less people who will want to get an autograph or photo op with that guest. Why? Because the fan already has an autograph and photo with that guest. The autograph market is dying as a result.

As a result  there is much less to bring a fan into the show and a lot of the shows have become stale.

Look at Phoenix Comicon off of their first five entertainment guests listed only one person is new. What is the attraction to bring me to the show?

Honestly I think a major fallout is going to happen as a result and it will take 5 years to recover to get back to some form of decency.

Very well said,  and agree with everything. 

[batman_fan]

On 11/24/2017 at 3:15 PM, reddwarf666222 said:

I think the issue is simple. How many times can such and such talent appear at a location before they are oversaturated. In our new world these creators are making 30 to 40 appearances a year. In some cities these creators are making 2 to 4 appearances a year.

Now think of these actor/actresses also making a lot of appearances and the number of entertainment guests a show can bring in. Again an actor could make a few appearances in a city as well each year.

After 2 to 3 years a lot of shows are repeating their guests and after 5 years well it's hard to bring someone that a show in the area has not brought into the area within a 5 year span.

What does this mean for a congoer and the guests?

Less people who will want to get an autograph or photo op with that guest. Why? Because the fan already has an autograph and photo with that guest. The autograph market is dying as a result.

As a result  there is much less to bring a fan into the show and a lot of the shows have become stale.

Look at Phoenix Comicon off of their first five entertainment guests listed only one person is new. What is the attraction to bring me to the show?

Honestly I think a major fallout is going to happen as a result and it will take 5 years to recover to get back to some form of decency.

When I lived in Phoenix, every comic and toy show had Butch Patrick at it.  When I lived in Albuquerque every comic show had Sergio Argones.  The running joke back then was finding a Groo comic WITHOUT Sergio's signature was harder than finding one with his signature.

[Brandon Shepherd]

On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 7:21 PM, batman_fan said:

Denver Comic Con has some comics but each year it seems less and less.  I actually didn't go last year because the cost is so high to get in and I usually come away with nothing.  There are people selling cosplay stuff, mystery boxes, t-shirts, toys, furniture, etc.  I would be hard pressed to say what the theme of the show is.

You're right about Denver. I've only been twice, I noticed more comic booths in 2017 than I did in 2016. I doubt I'll go next year.

[Brandon Shepherd]

Colorado Springs has a few small shows that are mixed with toys and comics. I noticed several cosplayers had their own tables set up, selling half naked photos of themselves. Some even have signs advertising appointments available. So, are these girls cosplay escorts, or strippers or both?

This song sums up my feelings about cosplayers. 

 

 

[mysterio]

7 hours ago, batman_fan said:

When I lived in Phoenix, every comic and toy show had Butch Patrick at it.  When I lived in Albuquerque every comic show had Sergio Argones.  The running joke back then was finding a Groo comic WITHOUT Sergio's signature was harder than finding one with his signature.

If those guys are local it’s easy for promoters to add them to the list by providing a free table. That doesn’t bother me in terms of repeat guests on a list. 

To me the issue is basically reflected by most larger show’s guest lists. Those guys from Supernstural must have gone to every Wizard show for the past three years. Reedus isn’t the fixture he used to be, but damn if he wasn’t at every show, and I mean every show, for about four years running. Name a Dr Who actor/actress and they’re also consistent offenders here. Jason Momoa is going to be on this list soon, I know he’s been to Dallas 2-3 times and he’s on the Fan Expo Dallas list. 

If shows can’t get new headliners into an area then ticket sales will suffer. I don’t think you get quite this fatigue with comic creators as their fans buy new books to get signed or they get a sketch they couldn’t afford at a previous show. 

[comicbooks22]

Here in SoCal, there are lots of cons. Most of which consist of typical movie, television, and promotional booths.

Even though I have not been in the hobby for that long compared to others (5 years), I can still tell that these are not the way cons used to be.

There is only one true convention that I attend. It is the annual Cal Comic Con run by Terry's comics, which I have found to hold the best dealers from around the country. It is my personal favorite con of the year, and only consists of 2 small rooms.

I think that conventions will survive as long as there are collectors to fuel them. They may not be like they are now, but lets be honest, true collectors only attend cons to meet the creators, buy comics, and socialize with fellow collectors/dealers. 

Collecting will endure as long as there are enough people to keep the hobby alive.  

[reddwarf666222]

14 hours ago, mysterio said:

 Name a Dr Who actor/actress and they’re also consistent offenders here.

Tom Baker aka the 4th Doctor arguably the most popular Doctor in the US from the original run. Tom Baker has not been here since the 1980s. Christopher Eccleston the 9th Doctor has hardly done any shows. There are more I can list, but this is a good start.

[mysterio]

35 minutes ago, reddwarf666222 said:

Tom Baker aka the 4th Doctor arguably the most popular Doctor in the US from the original run. Tom Baker has not been here since the 1980s. Christopher Eccleston the 9th Doctor has hardly done any shows. There are more I can list, but this is a good start.

And those would obviously be good gets for any show, but once they've done their 10th US show they would go back to being ho-hum. Matt Smith and David Tennant have done several shows this year each, as have supporting people like Jenna Coleman. Great people from a great show, but they aren't going to drive traffic like they used to when they were tough to see.

[1Cool]

I think the number of Cons have grown into a monster that can not be sustained.  One of the LCS owner does a Con a week for pretty much the entire summer and I just don't think setting up at Cons was envisioned as a full time gig (especially since he only travels 4 or 5 hours at most).  The Cons all start to look the same and have the same stuff week after week and you just can't bring a massive group of people to each Con if there is nothing new to see.  And since comic buyers are such a small subset of the general Con goers you have the oversaturation effect hit even harder for the vendors and buyers.  I go to most Cons in the general area and usually its a very short stop in since there is just nothing new to look thru.

[mysterio]

44 minutes ago, 1Cool said:

I think the number of Cons have grown into a monster that can not be sustained.  One of the LCS owner does a Con a week for pretty much the entire summer and I just don't think setting up at Cons was envisioned as a full time gig (especially since he only travels 4 or 5 hours at most).  The Cons all start to look the same and have the same stuff week after week and you just can't bring a massive group of people to each Con if there is nothing new to see.  And since comic buyers are such a small subset of the general Con goers you have the oversaturation effect hit even harder for the vendors and buyers.  I go to most Cons in the general area and usually its a very short stop in since there is just nothing new to look thru.

Yep.

[darkstar]

On 11/21/2017 at 10:27 AM, mysterio said:

Question to @1Cool and others who expect a discount to eBay at cons. Why would you expect dealers to take a discount to FMV after hauling books across the county for you to see? I guarantee that it’s cheaper and easier for them to sell on eBay, so why expect dealers to work harder for less money? You expect less risk, more choice, AND a discount?

That sense of entitlement seems to me to be part of the recipe that ends comic cons as we know/want them. 

It isn't a sense of entitlement, it's the result of a free market. If you're setting up at a show your competition isn't just the other tables in the room anymore. Anyone with a smart phone and a wifi/data connection has alternative options. Your buyers don't care about your costs. If they can find the same product online for a cheaper price it is less likely your product will sell at a higher price. You don't have to kowtow to online prices, but you should understand that a large percentage of your potential customers are taking them into account when browsing your stock and it is going to impact your sales. It doesn't matter to the buyer if the online sale that is being used as leverage was poorly titled and didn't attract the appropriate amount of action, or that it ended at 3am on a Tuesday, or that the book that was advertised as NM wasn't actually NM.

Also you are ignoring the difference in acquisition costs that typically exists between a dealer and your average eBay seller that allow a dealer to resell books at a cheaper price while at the same time seeing larger margins on their sales. Common, liquid books from the last 30 years can usually be bought by dealers in collections, where they end up paying 5, 10, or 25 cents a book. Your average eBay seller probably paid anywhere from 1 to 10 dollars for the same book.

 

[mysterio]

50 minutes ago, darkstar said:

It isn't a sense of entitlement, it's the result of a free market. If you're setting up at a show your competition isn't just the other tables in the room anymore. Anyone with a smart phone and a wifi/data connection has alternative options. Your buyers don't care about your costs. If they can find the same product online for a cheaper price it is less likely your product will sell at a higher price. You don't have to kowtow to online prices, but you should understand that a large percentage of your potential customers are taking them into account when browsing your stock and it is going to impact your sales. It doesn't matter to the buyer if the online sale that is being used as leverage was poorly titled and didn't attract the appropriate amount of action, or that it ended at 3am on a Tuesday, or that the book that was advertised as NM wasn't actually NM.

Also you are ignoring the difference in acquisition costs that typically exists between a dealer and your average eBay seller that allow a dealer to resell books at a cheaper price while at the same time seeing larger margins on their sales. Common, liquid books from the last 30 years can usually be bought by dealers in collections, where they end up paying 5, 10, or 25 cents a book. Your average eBay seller probably paid anywhere from 1 to 10 dollars for the same book.

 

The statement I was reacting to detailed a buyer expectation of a 10-15% discount to online prices. That sort of an expectation does seem like entitlement to me, if buyers are indeed willing to walk if dealers won’t discount that strongly. 

I’d agree with your point that there is more information and competition in the marketplace today. But to me the safety, convenience, and experience of shopping at a con with merchandise in hand is worth a small premium to FMV. I know what I’m getting because I can inspect it, which minimizes condition risk, and I take it with me so I remove the cost and risk of shipping. To expect all those benefits plus a discount to online prices (which price the various risks into the equation) seems like entitlement. 

[lhcomics]

On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 11:52 AM, jsilverjanet said:

I suspect just like what I see at many other shows. If you don’t buy right and price right you aren’t going to be successful. This speculating from a small buying perspective doesn’t give the entire picture

the dealers who continue to do these shows time and time again will give you a better indicator. I’d like to hear from @Dale Roberts @blazingbob @gregreece and @lhcomics (4 dealers that have a great selection and great prices) on how they view the current market

wizard itself is a different case and I view them more the exception to the rule. The reason most of their customers don’t spend as much is they are out x amount of dollars before the enter the door (ticket price,  parking etc)

i do see more buyers (flippers,wanna be dealers) and there are still plenty of good books at every show so I’m not sure why people feel that a smaller show or a comic dealer only show would be any different. People want to pay less for books. Whether that’s in a room of 10,000 or a room of 100 nothing will change that.  

Besides possibly setting up at a couple (somewhat local to me) St Louis shows in 2018 I will only be selling at C2E2, Heroes, Wizard Chicago and Baltimore. I'm dropping 3 shows that I did sell at in 2017. I'm dropping them because I need time between shows to restock and some of those shows are just a couple weeks from the shows I do really good at.

For me Baltimore is a long haul but the buyers have showed up 2 years in a row so I have to return. 

If you know my setup I do really well with $5 and under priced comics that are not worth the hassle to sell online. I also on occasion have some quality inventory but nothing like Dale, Bob or Greg so in that group I'm 4th by a mile.

As long as these shows keep bringing the buyers I would imagine I'll keep doing them.

Leroy