Justice League - restarting the thread 1 1

[Bosco685]

9 minutes ago, kimik said:

I still liked Justice League, but even with the extra footage Snyder would have whiffed from a big box office perspective. That is what I was referring to. The broader movie going audience wants lighter, more humorous movies. By taking a darker/grittier approach, Snyder basically excluded those viewers from wanting to go which hurts the box office results. Even having Whedon add some humor/lighter moments did not help. Look at Aquaman $$$ compared to Justice League (which had the big 3 DC properties in it) to see why Snyder took the wrong approach.

At this point it's hard to tell. Post-BvS even when Snyder lightened the mood with Barry Allen as the loveable young superhero and the Clark Kent 'do you bleed' stuff to bring some laughs it sounds like excessive exec handling came into play. Hard to know what the results would have been.

But come on. After all the many Thanos build-up pieces in the MCU, the general audience members would have probably acted favorably to the Darkseid spot as something familiar they could relate to.

[paperheart]

Justice League 2 anywhere in sight? End of story.

[Bosco685]

9 minutes ago, paperheart said:

Justice League 2 anywhere in sight? End of story.

All that proves is WB tampering disrupted the follow-up.

Stick to what you're good at like posting jay is a person_having_a_hard_time_understanding_my_point and then realizing you were playing with fire and changing it to *spoon*. Like that was any better. Classy!

Edited January 27, 2019 by Bosco685

[Batman]

I see nothing ever changes...  

[Bosco685]

6 minutes ago, Batman said:

I see nothing ever changes...  

Other than a hater hating versus a logical discussion like @kimik and I were having?

[kimik]

16 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

At this point it's hard to tell. Post-BvS even when Snyder lightened the mood with Barry Allen as the loveable young superhero and the Clark Kent 'do you bleed' stuff to bring some laughs it sounds like excessive exec handling came into play. Hard to know what the results would have been.

But come on. After all the many Thanos build-up pieces in the MCU, the general audience members would have probably acted favorably to the Darkseid spot as something familiar they could relate to.

Personally, I like Snyder's comic adaptation work since it tends to be visually/stylistically closer to the source (e.g. 300, Watchmen) and a darker/grittier tone. However, as we can see based on box office results, this is not what the broader public wants in their hero films. When even turds like Ant-Man 1 and 2 can do $500MM plus with a 3rd tier character that noone cared about for decades, while JL or BvS with two of the top 5 most recognized comic properties on the planet struggles to top $600MM and $800MM respectively (and with declining results from BvS to JL), that basically tells you that you missed with your approach to the broader comic movie audience.

We will disagree again re: Darkseid. The big issue with that for DC/WB is simply this - there was next to no build-up re: Darkseid other than the dream sequence and the rants from Luthor at the end of BvS. Thanos worked because Marvel has been developing him as the big bad villain ever since the first Avengers film. You had the Infinity Stones being gathered for Thanos across multiple movies and knew that would mean bad things on a universal scale.

Contrast that to the DC/WB approach with the Mother Boxes. There was no grand plan to have the mother boxes appear in multiple movies with whispers about Darkseid coming to build up suspense. All we got was a CGI Steppenwulf easily grabbing all three. If Darkseid had shown up in JL it would not have meant much, IMHO, since the build up was not there to generate anticipation. DC/WB rushed things with Darkseid instead of slow playing it to build up suspense like you would in a comic story arc. That was a mistake.

 

Edited January 27, 2019 by kimik

[Bosco685]

14 minutes ago, kimik said:

Personally, I like Snyder's comic adaptation work since it tends to be visually/stylistically closer to the source (e.g. 300, Watchmen) and a darker/grittier tone. However, as we can see based on box office results, this is not what the broader public wants in their hero films. When even turds like Ant-Man 1 and 2 can do $500MM plus with a 3rd tier character that noone cared about for decades, while JL or BvS with two of the top 5 most recognized comic properties on the planet struggles to top $600MM and $800MM respectively (and with declining results from BvS to JL), that basically tells you that you missed with your approach to the broader comic movie audience.

We will disagree again re: Darkseid. The big issue with that for DC/WB is simply this - there was next to no build-up re: Darkseid other than the dream sequence and the rants from Luthor at the end of BvS. Thanos worked because Marvel has been developing him as the big bad villain ever since the first Avengers film. You had the Infinity Stones being gathered for Thanos across multiple movies and knew that would mean bad things on a universal scale.

Contrast that to the DC/WB approach with the Mother Boxes. There was no grand plan to have the mother boxes appear in multiple movies with whispers about Darkseid coming to build up suspense. All we got was a CGI Steppenwulf easily grabbing all three. If Darkseid had shown up in JL it would not have meant much, IMHO, since the build up was not there to generate anticipation. DC/WB rushed things with Darkseid instead of slow playing it to build up suspense like you would in a comic story arc. That was a mistake.

Although I like your thoughts on this in a slow buildup to ensure everyone seeing these films understand the details by the big conflict, it leans on the assumption Zack Snyder (not a god but he did have a plan) wanted things the way it ended up.

Zack Snyder Confirms His Original DCEU Plans (July 2018)

Quote

Apparently, the director had planned a five-film arc beginning with Man of Steel that would have told a self-contained story, most likely with Darkseid as the big bad. This would have theoretically gone across the aforementioned 2013 film, Batman V Superman, Justice League Part 1, Justice League Part 2 and an unnamed finale. We’ve heard whispers of this before and earlier on Vero, Snyder confirmed it.

It turns out while Snyder was working on his five-film arc, any related movies outside the 5 would also link to the bigger threat. Aquaman, The Flash, Wonder Woman, Cyborg, The Green Lantern Corps were all going to touch on pieces of the puzzle. Even the Suicide Squad film was going to include the bigger threat. But early on the studio got spooked, and we ended up with jelly heads and the writhing Enchantress scenes.

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 1/26/2019 at 3:09 PM, kimik said:

Maybe even more. They had the success and momentum of WW to build off of from earlier in the year, plus Batman and Superman, and Snyder/Whedon basically wasted it. 

You mean just Whedon.

The hour of Zack's footage that Whedon Cut, and replaced with 30 mins of drek, turned a possibly monumental movie into 100+ minutes of 'meh'.

Despite whether or not people like Zack Snyder's 'style', you can't deny that his films are visually stunning. The purple in Russia, Superman's face, Steppenwolf's head, etc, all clearly shows us that Whedon is responsible for this lukewarn hero team-up.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 1/26/2019 at 4:49 PM, Bosco685 said:

Anyone still spinning this record about Snyder and Justice League totally dismisses what we experienced was not what he pulled together. Even the test screenings included Darkseid and there was talk of Green Lanterns appearing to build upon a later story.

 

The opening scene with the Parademon exploding to show us the Mother Boxes!? 100% Whedon. Snyder's Steppenwolf looked very, very, similar to what was in the Ultimate Edition of BvS. Whedon made him look humanoid (that's why his CG was so bad).

There are tons of lists out there with confirmed changes to what Snyder had envisioned. The amount of items is staggering. Vulko cut. Cyborg's backstory cut. Flash's girlfriend cut. All of the heart of the Justice League coming-together story was cut, so that Whedon could put in Flash landing on top of Wonder Woman for some dumb@$$ sex joke, and Steppenwolf talking to some "mother" instead of doing Darkseid's bidding.

We could spend hours just mulling over the original story to Justice League. It's a serious tragedy. I waited my whole life to see these heroes come together on the big screen in live action. The fact that it wasn't the best it could be leaves me heartbroken. We need the Snyder Cut.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 1/26/2019 at 5:25 PM, kimik said:

I still liked Justice League, but even with the extra footage Snyder would have whiffed from a big box office perspective. That is what I was referring to. The broader movie going audience wants lighter, more humorous movies. By taking a darker/grittier approach, Snyder basically excluded those viewers from wanting to go which hurts the box office results. Even having Whedon add some humor/lighter moments did not help. Look at Aquaman $$$ compared to Justice League (which had the big 3 DC properties in it) to see why Snyder took the wrong approach.

Uh... What? Despite (the last I checked) an 80% RT audience score, I didn't see it more than a couple of times because it was 'meh'. You don't think good movies bring it larger box office revenues? You think that one guy saw Infinity War 50 times in theaters  despite how good or bad it is?

No. A Snyder Cut would have grossed more. "Fanboys", or whatever you wanna call them, will see great comic movies tons of times more than mediocre movies. That includes myself. I would've spent another couple hundred dollars seeing the BvS Snyder Cut in theaters, because that is a great movie. I know tons of people who go to see these films in theaters based on the word-of-mouth of comic book fans. Otherwise? The Red Box it or see it on TV.

You're delusional if you think that a better movie (completed by Snyder) wouldn't positively impact the BO numbers for Justice League.

I really thought that Joss Whedon taking over would've been good for JL. I didn't think he'd ruin it. I also didn't know that he think Steppenwolf is one of "the worst comic book villains ever" until after I saw the movie.

Also, critics still don't like Aquaman. If you seriously think that Aquaman deviates from the Snydervision, then Idk what movie you watched. Aquaman had, maybe, a couple more jokes than Man of Steel and BvS. It had vibrant colors. The style of directing is so similar to Snyder.

As fans, you're seriously mistaken if you think that every movie should be an MCU flick. You really want hero fatigue to set in that fast? I love the MCU and I love Snyder's Worlds of DC. I don't want 2 cinematic universes with the same blueprint. That's freaking boring. I need to get away from the lack-of-stakes MCU a lot.

Snyder took the correct approach and you're just flat-out incorrect.

Edited January 28, 2019 by TwoPiece

[paperheart]

i'm sure it would have been a masterpiece rivaling Citizen Kane

Snyder's cut of Justice League was “unwatchable”.

[Bosco685]

4 minutes ago, paperheart said:

i'm sure it would have been a masterpiece rivaling Citizen Kane

Snyder's cut of Justice League was “unwatchable”.

#Gaslighting

[theCapraAegagrus]

25 minutes ago, paperheart said:

i'm sure it would have been a masterpiece rivaling Citizen Kane

Snyder's cut of Justice League was “unwatchable”.

Says the same studio talking heads that forced him to release a mediocre theatrical cut of Batman v Superman that was close to "unwatchable".

Those big wig know-nothing dunces at WB have proven that they know %^&*-all about comic book adaptations.

"Who's Vulko? Why should we care about Cyborg's backstory? Who's Iris? Get this movie out in 2017 so we get our bonuses!"

You have a lot of good opinions and comments on CB movies, but this one doesn't follow that trend.

[Gatsby77]

8 hours ago, TwoPiece said:

No. A Snyder Cut would have grossed more. "Fanboys", or whatever you wanna call them, will see great comic movies tons of times more than mediocre movies. That includes myself. I would've spent another couple hundred dollars seeing the BvS Snyder Cut in theaters, because that is a great movie. I know tons of people who go to see these films in theaters based on the word-of-mouth of comic book fans. Otherwise? The Red Box it or see it on TV.

You're delusional if you think that a better movie (completed by Snyder) wouldn't positively impact the BO numbers for Justice League.

Umm...what?

A cursory glance at Snyder's box office grosses shows the vast majority of people *specifically don't* like his style.  It's why Watchmen and Sucker Punch were huge box office failures -- the films played to the comic book fanboys, at the expense of the general audience. (I re-watched Watchmen recently and think it's a great adaptation, but the price of making it so was to alienate the general audiences. He seriously made it just for the comic fans -- and it paid the price in box office receipts.)

While I think Man of Steel was a superior superhero (and -- maybe) Superman film, I credit it more to Nolan's oversight -- particularly evident in the editing -- than Snyder per se. And that film was still deemed such a *failure* by WB that they scrapped a direct sequel and went with BvS instead.

And, for the record, RT audience scores mean nothing -- and are easily manipulated. What does matter? Box office. 

Snyder's vision for the DCEU was flawed from the start -- and, while it took a few films before for the suits at Warner Brothers to catch on, they eventually did, and fired him.

[Bosco685]

1 hour ago, Gatsby77 said:

Umm...what?

A cursory glance at Snyder's box office grosses shows the vast majority of people *specifically don't* like his style.  It's why Watchmen and Sucker Punch were huge box office failures -- the films played to the comic book fanboys, at the expense of the general audience. (I re-watched Watchmen recently and think it's a great adaptation, but the price of making it so was to alienate the general audiences. He seriously made it just for the comic fans -- and it paid the price in box office receipts.)

While I think Man of Steel was a superior superhero (and -- maybe) Superman film, I credit it more to Nolan's oversight -- particularly evident in the editing -- than Snyder per se. And that film was still deemed such a *failure* by WB that they scrapped a direct sequel and went with BvS instead.

And, for the record, RT audience scores mean nothing -- and are easily manipulated. What does matter? Box office. 

Snyder's vision for the DCEU was flawed from the start -- and, while it took a few films before for the suits at Warner Brothers to catch on, they eventually did, and fired him.

It is okay that a portion of movie or comic book fans do not like Zack Snyder's style. It is what it is. It's a fact!

But to state 'the vast majority of people' is a drastic overstatement to make your point. No need to detract from the real details that a portion of folks didn't like the direction. Even when I conducted a poll to gauge the reaction of BvS, it sure wasn't deep dislike across the board. The most frequent vote was 8.0/10.0, with an average of 6.24 because enough lower votes from 196 responses were posted. And that is a tiny sample of reactions at the time from fellow board members. Die-hard comic book fans.

WB got spooked, and early on started playing around with its DCU plans. Even David Ayer noting Suicide Squad was where Steppenwolf was going to come into play and not Enchantress as the big bad, it shows drastic changes took place. Even Jay Oliva called out his negative reaction to Justice League because it was so vastly different from what he had planned with Zack Snyder. 'Justice League' Storyboard Artist Reveals Original Plans for Final Act

Quote

One of the biggest critics of the movie is Justice League's own storyboard artist Jay Oliva, who has also directed quite a few animated DC Comics movies. Now Oliva revealed there would have been a major difference in the film's final act if Snyder had the final say.

 

"I did from the time they arrived to the nuclear reactor all the way to the end of the fight," Oliva said on the Comic Book Debate Podcast. "There’s a couple stuff that when I watched the film I was like, ‘Well, what happened to that?’ because I was really looking forward to seeing it because I’ve done some crazy stuff. I tried to top what I’ve done with Superman. When Superman comes back, I had done some really crazy stuff like Superman unhinged."

And with people being so disappointed in these WB/DC movies they don't want them, then who bought $449.1M domestically in DVD's and Blurays?

Edited January 28, 2019 by Bosco685

[theCapraAegagrus]

15 hours ago, Gatsby77 said:

Umm...what?

A cursory glance at Snyder's box office grosses shows the vast majority of people *specifically don't* like his style.  It's why Watchmen and Sucker Punch were huge box office failures -- the films played to the comic book fanboys, at the expense of the general audience. (I re-watched Watchmen recently and think it's a great adaptation, but the price of making it so was to alienate the general audiences. He seriously made it just for the comic fans -- and it paid the price in box office receipts.)

While I think Man of Steel was a superior superhero (and -- maybe) Superman film, I credit it more to Nolan's oversight -- particularly evident in the editing -- than Snyder per se. And that film was still deemed such a *failure* by WB that they scrapped a direct sequel and went with BvS instead.

And, for the record, RT audience scores mean nothing -- and are easily manipulated. What does matter? Box office. 

Snyder's vision for the DCEU was flawed from the start -- and, while it took a few films before for the suits at Warner Brothers to catch on, they eventually did, and fired him.

Um... What?

Neither Snyder's Director Cut of Watchmen or Dawn of Justice were released in theaters. Both of which are highly-regarded among every comic book (and every non-comic book) fan that I've ever met personally. If you don't think that better movies garner more box office revenue, then... Lol what?

Where are you getting this misinformation that Man of Steel 2 was scrapped? That's not true in the slightest. Any Worlds of DC fan can tell you that BvS was the 2nd to Superman's 3-movie arc the majority of the time... Followed by Justice League (Part 1) completing the trilogy arc of New Superman to Who Our Parents Know to be Superman. Justice League Part 2 was to be the first full-feature of the "perfect" Superman. Man of Steel 2 is still "in development" (whatever that means to WB).

I couldn't care less about RT numbers, but some people do, and the BO numbers support that audiences do in fact like Aquaman, despite it being the same exact style as Zack Snyder, except with bright colors (something that Snyder haters claimed would make critics like his movies).

Snyder's vision for Worlds of DC was great. It's blatantly obvious that he was the only one with a plan for this shared universe. Man of Steel was perfect. The BvS Director's Cut is great. Wonder Woman was very good (did you even know that he was involved?). The 1 scene he directed in SS was nice. His plans for Justice League were great (the studio cut all of the guts that made the back stories that every Marvel fanboy obsesses is necessary to a team-up film).

The fact that WB fired Snyder doesn't mean anything other than that they have literally no idea what they're doing. Their studio is a complete mess with no plans. They have no idea how to respect source material and comic book fans. As has been discussed - yes, CB movies need to appeal to general audiences - but not at the expense of the materials' true fans. Snyder is a real comic book fan who knows how to make comic book movies that can appeal to general audiences if studios don't interfere with the production processes.

All that Sucker Punch is, is evidence that he can't write stories. That's not his primary job. He has shown time and time again that he's phenomenal at directing stories, which is difficult to do successfully when know-nothing execs limit your artistic abilities.

[Gatsby77]

19 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

It is okay that a portion of movie or comic book fans do not like Zack Snyder's style. It is what it is. It's a fact!

But to state 'the vast majority of people' is a drastic overstatement to make your point. No need to detract from the real details that a portion of folks didn't like the direction. Even when I conducted a poll to gauge the reaction of BvS, it sure wasn't deep dislike across the board. The most frequent vote was 8.0/10.0, with an average of 6.24 because enough lower votes from 196 responses were posted. And that is a tiny sample of reactions at the time from fellow board members. Die-hard comic book fans.

WB got spooked, and early on started playing around with its DCU plans. Even David Ayer noting Suicide Squad was where Steppenwolf was going to come into play and not Enchantress as the big bad, it shows drastic changes took place. Even Jay Oliva called out his negative reaction to Justice League because it was so vastly different from what he had planned with Zack Snyder. 'Justice League' Storyboard Artist Reveals Original Plans for Final Act

And with people being so disappointed in these WB/DC movies they don't want them, then who bought $449.1M domestically in DVD's and Blurays?

You're right. These were all incredibly successful.

When's Justice League 2 coming out, again?

When's Man of Steel 2 coming out? And who's playing Supes?

When's The Batman coming out? And who's playing Batman?

When's Green Lantern Corps coming out? And who's starring?

When's Flash (or Flashpoint) coming out?

[Gatsby77]

At this point I'd wager we'll see Vin Diesel starring in Bloodshot 2: Electric Bugaloo before we see a solo Flash movie.

[theCapraAegagrus]

40 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

You're right. These were all incredibly successful.

When's Justice League 2 coming out, again?

When's Man of Steel 2 coming out? And who's playing Supes?

When's The Batman coming out? And who's playing Batman?

When's Green Lantern Corps coming out? And who's starring?

When's Flash (or Flashpoint) coming out?

If you're pointing fingers at Warner Bros. and Worlds of DC for having no freaking plan, then I'm right here with you.

"Justice League Part II" was cancelled with Zack Snyder's firing.

They recently started getting serious about casting for Green Lantern Corps, FYI.

Everything else is pretty much up in the air. Still looking at scripts starring Cavill for Man of Steel 2 and still searching for a direct for The Flash (I think they ditched the concept of adapting Flashpoint).

Edit: The Flash has directors that will start filming late this year. "Scheduled" for release in 2021.

Edited January 29, 2019 by TwoPiece

[Bosco685]

4 hours ago, Gatsby77 said:

You're right. These were all incredibly successful.

When's Justice League 2 coming out, again?

When's Man of Steel 2 coming out? And who's playing Supes?

When's The Batman coming out? And who's playing Batman?

When's Green Lantern Corps coming out? And who's starring?

When's Flash (or Flashpoint) coming out?

I get it. it doesn't fit your narrative the whole thing blew up. So better to gaslight. It's an approach, I guess.

Meanwhile even as bungled a Suicide Squad was, massive financial success and 1 Oscar.

A spin-off from the Batman v Superman was not only a massive box office success, but also a home sales success.

Then there is this little guy that came out of Batman v Superman. Maybe you heard of this movie.

And now we have Shazam and Joker due in 2019, and due to WB gaining confidence from Aquaman there is talk of ramping up other movies in addition to Wonder Woman 1984 and Birds of Prey. Not bad after studio missteps.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Bosco685