Bigger BA Key: GL 76 or HOS 92? 2 2

[Ken Aldred]

The problem with GL 76 is that its groundbreaking, relevance qualities are significant to a lot of older readers / collectors, like myself, but our younger counterparts didn’t experience that impact or develop our buzz of aching nostalgia for the book.    

As was once said about Gerber’s Howard the Duck ; remembered fondly by many who started reading comics in the 70s, but a dated product of a bygone age.

[OtherEric]

I went for the GL/GA #76; I feel the total impact that book had on the hobby is much greater than the HoS #92.  With that said, there's no doubt in my mind that they're both vitally important books.  But for me, the fact that when I had to sell some books to make rent about a decade ago, the HoS #92 was the one I let go; and I kept the GL/GA #76.  It wasn't even a subject of debate with myself as to which one was more important.  And this was years before I got the GL/GA signed by Adams and O'Neil.

Mind you, I want to replace the HoS #92 rather badly now, but I still feel I made the right choice.

I think the best way I can explain it, if this makes sense:  GL/GA #76 had an enormous impact on comics that is still being felt in some ways today.  HoS #92, while a beautiful story, really doesn't have that impact on its own terms.  What it DID do is lay the groundwork for later books that had enormous impact; but the impact of the book itself is a lot more diffuse.

Oh, and we should have the book show up in the thread somewhere, so here:

[thehumantorch]

GL 76 for me.  It's a historic book, considered by some to be the beginning of the BA and certainly a game changer as far as addressing social issues rather than the usual 'smash the villian' standard comic book fare.   

I get that HOS 92 is a great book and the first appearance of Swamp Thing and a great example of Wrightson work but Swamp Thing can't fly, he's not much of a conversationalist, he's actually pretty dull at parties,  ...is Swamp Thing really so important?   Is Swampy even a third tier character?  Do kids dress up in Swamp Thing costumes for Halloween or SDCC?   If it wasn't for this recent heat on prices would we even be having this conversation?

[Hey Kids, Comics!]

So if GL76 changed comics forever (and I'm not saying it didn't) and was so groundbreaking socially, why did it get cancelled a year later? It obviously didn't resonate with most people at the time.

[kimik]

3 hours ago, Hey Kids, Comics! said:

So if GL76 changed comics forever (and I'm not saying it didn't) and was so groundbreaking socially, why did it get cancelled a year later? It obviously didn't resonate with most people at the time.

Someone posted it in an earlier thread about the book, but to paraphrase: back then there was a lag in receiving sales numbers. GL was a book destined for cancellation which is why O'Neill and Adams were allowed to do what they wanted to with it. Sales started to spike after a few issues as readers caught on, but these numbers did not get reported until after the final cancellation decision was made.

[OtherEric]

1 hour ago, kimik said:

Someone posted it in an earlier thread about the book, but to paraphrase: back then there was a lag in receiving sales numbers. GL was a book destined for cancellation which is why O'Neill and Adams were allowed to do what they wanted to with it. Sales started to spike after a few issues as readers caught on, but these numbers did not get reported until after the final cancellation decision was made.

I would add that it clearly had a major impact on the other creators working in comics at the time.

[Martin Sinescu]

I voted for GL 76, but this feels like I'm in Bizarro World. I like Swamp Thing alright and all, but he's really not that major of a character. Really not. Where did all this love come from? GL 76 is one of those cornerstone books that has been lauded for decades and, lacking the contemporary experience myself, I'm absolutely willing to defer to those that were reading at the time when it comes to the book's significance, whether it can still be viewed as cutting-edge by today's standards or not. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

I own GL 76, but I didn't vote....  because I don't feel to prefer one above the other. They both have their own rights, but I like both the covers the same. As far as reading the book, GL 76 ranks higher to me, but I am not "too" big a fan of "monsters"  I dig that HOS 92 is picking up steam and there doesn't ever seem to be any buzz concerning GL. I think things it'd take to create buzz is just too long a process. Whether it be movie, tv, or in this case a passing, I don't know what criteria indicates stable growth. I'm still a noob in that area 

Edited December 18, 2017 by ADAMANTIUM

[Lazyboy]

6 hours ago, kimik said:

9 hours ago, Hey Kids, Comics! said:

So if GL76 changed comics forever (and I'm not saying it didn't) and was so groundbreaking socially, why did it get cancelled a year later? It obviously didn't resonate with most people at the time.

Someone posted it in an earlier thread about the book, but to paraphrase: back then there was a lag in receiving sales numbers. GL was a book destined for cancellation which is why O'Neill and Adams were allowed to do what they wanted to with it. Sales started to spike after a few issues as readers caught on, but these numbers did not get reported until after the final cancellation decision was made.

No, that's not it (though the bold part is accurate). It only took a few months for sales figures to be reported and the title was not even monthly at the time.  Anyway, it's not like it was impossible to reverse a decision to cancel a title or to add a "new" title.

The real reason is that, from DC's perspective, GL wasn't selling much better, because of fraud in the newsstand system. The official sales numbers barely improved (only by a few thousand), while the number of copies actually being distributed increased more significantly.

[Bomber-Bob]

Books that introduce a major new character will always get the nod over those that do not. I think GL76 is a cool book but look at the label, it says nothing other than GL/GA stories begin. What's key about that ? HOS 92 has my vote. 

[Ken Aldred]

It's surprising that  a nice first appearance book such as HOS 92 didn't start escalating sooner, taking into consideration some of the garbage which has rocketed in price because of film speculation.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Ken Aldred

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Books that introduce a major new character will always get the nod over those that do not. I think GL76 is a cool book but look at the label, it says nothing other than GL/GA stories begin. What's key about that ? HOS 92 has my vote. 

What is "major" about a character with only a handful of appearances?

Again, Wein and Wrightson very intentionally created a new character/story for Swamp Thing 1. The basic concept (dying man becomes swamp monster) was obviously the same, but that concept also significantly predated HoS 92.

[Bomber-Bob]

10 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

What is "major" about a character with only a handful of appearances?

Again, Wein and Wrightson very intentionally created a new character/story for Swamp Thing 1. The basic concept (dying man becomes swamp monster) was obviously the same, but that concept also significantly predated HoS 92.

There are many examples of a prototype concept predating the book that gets the 1st appearance credit. I recognize the term 'major' may be debatable with the Swamp Thing but my point of GL76 having nothing on the label is a fact. Again, I'm a fan of GL76, very iconic cover,  but I have to give the nod to HOS 92.

[Lazyboy]

1 minute ago, Bomber-Bob said:

There are many examples of a prototype concept predating the book that gets the 1st appearance credit.

Yes, and in those cases, the 1st appearance is considered the 1st appearance and the prototype is considered a prototype. Although some are a huge stretch or at least not as obviously connected as what we're discussing.

1 minute ago, Bomber-Bob said:

I recognize the term 'major' may be debatable with the Swamp Thing

I don't have a problem with Swamp Thing being considered a "major" character, though he's certainly not at the top of that list.

1 minute ago, Bomber-Bob said:

but my point of GL76 having nothing on the label is a fact.

An irrelevant fact, since the issue notes on CGC labels don't define a book, nor do they fully describe it.

[drbanner]

Just for kicks, I dug out some old Overstreet guides to see when these 2 books became "keys".

1973 - Green Lantern 76 not broken out, lists "Begin Green Lantern/Green Arrow series"

1973 - HoS 92 not broken out, lists "Intro. Swamp Thing"

1974 - Green Lantern 76 broken out, lists "Begin Green Lantern/Green Arrow series" ($5.00)

1973 - HoS 92 broken out, lists "Intro Swamp Thing, Wood art" ($0.80)

1977 - Green Lantern 76 broken out, lists "Begin Green Lantern/Green Arrow series by Neal Adams" ($12.00)

1977 - HoS 92 broken out, lists "Intro. Swamp Thing, Wrightson story" ($15.00)

1980 - Green Lantern 76 ($30.00)

1980 - HoS 92 ($27.00)

1988 - Green Lantern 76 ($33.00)

1988 - HoS 92 ($24.00)

[Jayman]

57 minutes ago, drbanner said:

Just for kicks, I dug out some old Overstreet guides to see when these 2 books became "keys".

1973 - Green Lantern 76 not broken out, lists "Begin Green Lantern/Green Arrow series"

1973 - HoS 92 not broken out, lists "Intro. Swamp Thing"

1974 - Green Lantern 76 broken out, lists "Begin Green Lantern/Green Arrow series" ($5.00)

1973 - HoS 92 broken out, lists "Intro Swamp Thing, Wood art" ($0.80)

1977 - Green Lantern 76 broken out, lists "Begin Green Lantern/Green Arrow series by Neal Adams" ($12.00)

1977 - HoS 92 broken out, lists "Intro. Swamp Thing, Wrightson story" ($15.00)

1980 - Green Lantern 76 ($30.00)

1980 - HoS 92 ($27.00)

1988 - Green Lantern 76 ($33.00)

1988 - HoS 92 ($24.00)

Interesting listing for the 1973 HoS 92 entry where it mentions Wood art. Made me go check the GCD and think Overstreet got confused with the colorist Tatjana Wood.

[Martin Sinescu]

11 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Books that introduce a major new character will always get the nod over those that do not. I think GL76 is a cool book but look at the label, it says nothing other than GL/GA stories begin. What's key about that ? HOS 92 has my vote. 

Did you really just type that out loud? 

What makes GL 76 significant is not as simplistic as the first appearance of a character, it's the shift in direction for the book and the storytelling therein that was a marked departure from the lighter tone of the Silver Age in general. The book went from a super-hero title to a vehicle for the creative team to tackle real-life social issues and try to influence change. In other words, it tried to grow the medium as a whole. By most accounts, it was very different, daring and risky. It was a more grounded reflection of the changes the country was undergoing following the optimism of the 60's and also had a huge impact on other titles from both companies. The thing is, most of that isn't factual, it's subjective and probably needs to also be viewed in the context of what else was being published at the time. Unfortunately, that can't be boiled down to a CGC label or a few words in Overstreet, but it's a real disappointment if that diminishes the book's significance.  CGC grades and authenticates, they are not the historians of the hobby. 

[bronze johnny]

1 hour ago, Martin Sinescu said:

Did you really just type that out loud? 

What makes GL 76 significant is not as simplistic as the first appearance of a character, it's the shift in direction for the book and the storytelling therein that was a marked departure from the lighter tone of the Silver Age in general. The book went from a super-hero title to a vehicle for the creative team to tackle real-life social issues and try to influence change. In other words, it tried to grow the medium as a whole. By most accounts, it was very different, daring and risky. It was a more grounded reflection of the changes the country was undergoing following the optimism of the 60's and also had a huge impact on other titles from both companies. The thing is, most of that isn't factual, it's subjective and probably needs to also be viewed in the context of what else was being published at the time. Unfortunately, that can't be boiled down to a CGC label or a few words in Overstreet, but it's a real disappointment if that diminishes the book's significance.  CGC grades and authenticates, they are not the historians of the hobby. 

Good point that has me wondering how many others out there are basing their decisions on what the label says?

[Bomber-Bob]

1 hour ago, bronze johnny said:

Good point that has me wondering how many others out there are basing their decisions on what the label says?

The current marketplace is very much driven by what the label says. I've seen books fall off the cliff, from a financial standpoint, when a correction in the label removes the 1st appearance nod.  I'm not arguing that it's fair or logical. I am not demeaning GL76. I'm just saying, it is what it is. In any case HOS 92 has my vote and from all indications of the poll, most agree by a 2 -1 factor.

[drbanner]

The label says things that are important about the book (like "1st appearance of Spider-Man"), and as I said above, both books have been identified as keys for over 40 years so this is not a case of the tail wagging the dog! 

One thing I do wonder about is what the Census on HoS 92 is going to look like a year from now given the price spikes? While the total universal census numbers are similar (1,334 copies of HoS 92 vs. 1,239 copies of GL 76), there are fewer copies of HoS 92 in 9.0+ (227 for GL 76 vs. 214 for HoS 92), implying that HoS 92 is tougher in high grade. There are a bunch more Sig Series GL 76's however (361 vs. 138), and more of them are 9.0+ than HoS 92 (23 vs. 5).