Your critiques of a Chaykin Commission, please 2 2

[Rick2you2]

7 hours ago, Nexus said:

When I get commissions as a collector, I just eat the ones I'm not totally happy with, and I move on. So long as I believe the artist gave it an honest effort, but I simply didn't like the finished piece, we'll remain on good terms and I might even try again. But if I think the artist half-assed it, then we're done.

I've bought commissions before, and I pretty much agree with what you wrote. But, there were circumstances here which make me think he could have done better. Chaykin was going away on the day it was sent to me, and at least a few days earlier, it hadn't been finished. I think he rushed to get it done, and didn't do the finish work properly.

Parts of it, like Tala, are superb. Some other parts are good. What is so annoying here is that the unsatisfactory parts are glaring and detract from the greatness of the other parts.  

Finally, I think you have to recognize the difference between poor execution and poor design. A poor design is okay; poor execution is not. I have a commission from one artist which is beautifully rendered and clearly took a lot of time. Unfortunately, it misses the spirit of the character--and I think that's the true test of a great piece of art. But I recognized he did what he did due to ignorance, and I complimented him on his final product. He gave me the best he could, a 110% effort. So while it is not my favorite, I'm actually proud to own the work. Does that make sense?

So I am sorry I can't let it go. I'm not super-angry, and I would hire him again. But I am a little disappointed.

[J.Sid]

19 hours ago, Nexus said:

 

As a rep, I've handled hundreds of commissions for collectors.

If you had to estimate, how frequently do you deliver commissions with paste-ups done for correction? 

(I love that your website has a history of your guys' commissions for buyers to reference.)

[Rick2you2]

Well, I contacted Howard. 

He basically wrote back that if I was really dissatisfied, he would return my money. But, he was not amenable to any changes (even though I did offer to pay him).

I'm going to keep the piece; it is too good to return. But I think he should have at least agreed to trim the tape. The edge on the tape near PS's ear is already a tiny bit loose, and there is that box around the foot.

Still and all, there is one thing I think I can safely say: no one else is ever likely to get another Howard Chaykin Phantom Stranger.

Now, how do I get a Bruce Timm Phantom Stranger? There should be some out there already.

[Will_K]

14 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

A poor design is okay; poor execution is not.

This is interesting.  I'm kind of surprised.  Especially, in this particular case, Chaykin provided a rough layout and you indicate he was having a hard time with the expression.  It's hard to know but would you be more happy with a poor design but no pasteup, better jaw and nice looking hat ??

Regarding the other commission you mentioned, if the design was poor from the get-go, how great was the execution that you're proud to own the work.  Did you know what the design was before it was completed??  Out of curiosity, I'd like to see that commission.

Also, if you think Chaykin "rushed" to complete the commission (before traveling) was a factor, I think the packaging would've been an issue.  I think that's the biggest pain in the for artists.  You think you're done when the art is done.  But noooo, now you have to pack it up and mail it or call for a pickup.
 

 

Edited December 21, 2017 by Will_K

[The Voord]

7 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

Well, I contacted Howard. 

He basically wrote back that if I was really dissatisfied, he would return my money. But, he was not amenable to any changes (even though I did offer to pay him).

I'm going to keep the piece; it is too good to return. But I think he should have at least agreed to trim the tape. The edge on the tape near PS's ear is already a tiny bit loose, and there is that box around the foot.

Still and all, there is one thing I think I can safely say: no one else is ever likely to get another Howard Chaykin Phantom Stranger.

Now, how do I get a Bruce Timm Phantom Stranger? There should be some out there already.

The offer of a refund by Howard is a fair one.  

The poorly executed foot paste-up can be corrected without involving the artist directly.  If you get that foot fixed, it ought to make a huge improvement on the overall look of the piece.

The loose jaw paste-up edge can be re-attached properly.  If it was me, I'd seriously consider having the designer stubble eliminated.

A professional paper conservasionist would be my route on this one.

Edited December 21, 2017 by The Voord

[ESeffinga]

Since Howard is being so unhelpful...

 

 

Back scan:

Edited December 21, 2017 by ESeffinga
...with apologies.

[Rick2you2]

8 hours ago, Will_K said:

This is interesting.  I'm kind of surprised.  Especially, in this particular case, Chaykin provided a rough layout and you indicate he was having a hard time with the expression.  It's hard to know but would you be more happy with a poor design but no pasteup, better jaw and nice looking hat ??

I'm in a field where I work with architects, who do "design", so an amplification is needed here. I think it also pretty much comports with the way an artist should view things (and many architects can be considered as "artists" who work in a different medium).

"Design" can mean a general layout, but it can also mean a "detailed design." Both are in contrast to the way a contractor goes about and executes the "design" and which is sometime called "the means and methods of construction."

I approved the general layout. The general layout is what was expected and I posted it earlier.

The detailed design is the responsibility of the architect--here, the artist. The architect/artist has control over "aesthetic effect", so long as he conforms to generally accepted standards. By analogy, the Phantom Stranger could not include a "detailed design" with a baseball cap (unless the buyer explicitly wanted it). What artists sometimes think of as "micromanaging" is what I consider aesthetic effect. You will recall that I offered extra compensation (which is a fair approach, I think, if a change is desired). For some of it, like the hat barrel, I gather it is not fixable. For those portions, that's that.

Which brings me to "the means and methods of construction." I do not regard visible tape lines as proper "construction" because they interfere with the use of the art: its enjoyment. If the tape is subject to yellowing, that's no good either, in my opinion, because it interferes with long term enjoyment.

So to answer your basic question, if the paste-up had been properly done, and you could not see its effect on the art, then I am okay with it--unless tape will yellow badly over time, in which case that tape should never be used on a commission by anyone.

[Rick2you2]

9 hours ago, Will_K said:

Regarding the other commission you mentioned, if the design was poor from the get-go, how great was the execution that you're proud to own the work.  Did you know what the design was before it was completed??  Out of curiosity, I'd like to see that commission.

In the example I mentioned, I did not get a rough design. Afterward, I started getting more detailed in my descriptions to artists.

I won't show you the commission because I would not want the artist to ever find out. It might hurt his feelings. But I will tell you that you would likely find it magnificent. In its own way, it is, it just misses the character. And if you think I'm being picky, please bear in mind that I am willing to pay for the privilege. 

[Will_K]

Thanks for your responses.

[Rick2you2]

53 minutes ago, Will_K said:

Thanks for your responses.

You are welcome.

I may "bag" the whole thing with Howard and ask Robert Dennis to do it. If he can restore a comic, I expect he can fix bad tape work. 

[vodou]

26 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

...and ask Robert Dennis to do it. If he can restore a comic, I expect he can fix bad tape work. 

Robert Dennis does plenty of comic art too, I'm pretty sure he can help you.

[J.Sid]

Good for Howard. Glad to hear he took your concerns seriously.

 

[NelsonAI]

Kudos to Howard Chaykin for offering the refund.  Whether you decide to keep it or not, at least he made the offer.  A class act.  

We often hear horror stories about other artists so it's nice when we hear something positive.

Cheers!

N.

 

[Rick2you2]

14 hours ago, NelsonAI said:

Kudos to Howard Chaykin for offering the refund.  Whether you decide to keep it or not, at least he made the offer.  A class act.  

We often hear horror stories about other artists so it's nice when we hear something positive.

Cheers!

N.

 

To be candid, it would have been better if he took me up on my offer--which included payment for further work--and modified what he did (like fixing the paste-ups better). As a businessman, that would have also been the smarter approach--happier customer and payment, to boot.

[eewwnuk]

On 12/21/2017 at 5:54 AM, ESeffinga said:

Since Howard is being so unhelpful...

 

 

Back scan:

 

I like this redo. 

[Rick2you2]

9 minutes ago, eewwnuk said:

I like this redo. 

I really like it, too.

 

10 minutes ago, eewwnuk said:

I like this redo. 

By the way, so do I. 

[Michael Browning]

I'm coming in a bit late to this conversation, but I would like to add that Howard explained to me at the 2016 Canton Hall of Fame Con that he draws ALL his faces in the paste-up/drawn-on-tape method. I have a Chaykin Betty and Veronica that was intended as a cover and both of their faces were done with the paste-up/tape method. He said it's his way of getting the detail he wants. I can't say I understand his process, but I'm not an artist. It does give the commission an odd look, but it's the way he works nowadays. Didn't he explain that to you before he agreed to the commission? He should have, if he didn't.

I think the Phantom Stranger commission is pretty doggone good, though, I will agree that $1500 was a really high price to pay for a commission from any artist (my first, and best, Steranko that was later used as a variant cover only cost me $1500 - but that was also five years ago).

I stopped getting commissions because it's a gamble - unless it's a line-for-line recreation - and I've rarely gotten exactly what I wanted (except from Bob Budiansky, who executed my one commission from him to perfection and Ernie Chan, who always delivered everything I asked him to draw and made the commissions better).

[Rick2you2]

29 minutes ago, Michael Browning said:

I have a Chaykin Betty and Veronica that was intended as a cover and both of their faces were done with the paste-up/tape method. He said it's his way of getting the detail he wants.

I'm slowly getting used to it now, but I do want to say a few things. The paste-up method does not bother me. What does is the quality of the tape's use and which should have been cleaned up. On my image, you can clearly see a box around the foot which he fixed. I appreciate the fix; I don't think the tape should be loose and visible. On the PS face, you can see (if you look closely) that the edge of one side of the tape is slightly peeled up and the ink is less dark. Other parts, incidentally, are fine. That's the difference. Look at your own commission: see how the tape stands out and distracts? 

Curiously, the more I keep looking at it, the more I appreciate the artisanship. Funny how that works. 

While quite a few people have commented on the stiff price, that's actually something which doesn't bother me at all. I will enjoy it for decades (I hope), and the cost won't matter. For example, I have the first Phantom Stranger commission (a convention sketch, actually) by Byrne and Rubinstein from 1980. I know it was the first by either of them; they told me that at the time. As I recall, it was also $50, or less than $2.00 per year of enjoyment. Would it have mattered if it was $100? Nope.

[Michael Browning]

8 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

I'm slowly getting used to it now, but I do want to say a few things. The paste-up method does not bother me. What does is the quality of the tape's use and which should have been cleaned up. On my image, you can clearly see a box around the foot which he fixed. I appreciate the fix; I don't think the tape should be loose and visible. On the PS face, you can see (if you look closely) that the edge of one side of the tape is slightly peeled up and the ink is less dark. Other parts, incidentally, are fine. That's the difference. Look at your own commission: see how the tape stands out and distracts? 

Curiously, the more I keep looking at it, the more I appreciate the artisanship. Funny how that works. 

While quite a few people have commented on the stiff price, that's actually something which doesn't bother me at all. I will enjoy it for decades (I hope), and the cost won't matter. For example, I have the first Phantom Stranger commission (a convention sketch, actually) by Byrne and Rubinstein from 1980. I know it was the first by either of them; they told me that at the time. As I recall, it was also $50, or less than $2.00 per year of enjoyment. Would it have mattered if it was $100? Nope.

Oh, believe me, the tape absolutely stands out and distracts - but, it only cost me $150 at the show and I got to spend some quality time with Howard (who is one of the nicest guys and funny as can be and he liked me because he said we were probably the only two strong in the room). So, that made it all worthwhile and I don't have a negative feeling toward the commission.

And, price doesn't matter if I really enjoy the commission, so you're correct on that, too. There have been very few that I've bought that I wasn't entirely satisfied with and there were only two that I remember that I was severely disappointed in where I knew that the artists phoned them in. In those two cases, I definitely paid way too much, despite the fact that one cost me $75 and the other cost $150. I never went back to those two artists for commissions again.

I really do like the Phantom Stranger commission. I think PS has a great look, the jawline doesn't bother me one bit and the hat isn't bad at all, in my opinion.

I have a Jonah Hex commission where the artist gave him a fedora instead of a Confederate soldier's hat. It really bothers me to the point that I don't display it and very rarely ever take it out to look at. Jonah's facial scar and eye is great, but the hat makes him look like he's a 1940s detective straight out of a pulp novel rather than a western character.

[Rick2you2]

1 hour ago, Michael Browning said:

Oh, believe me, the tape absolutely stands out and distracts - but, it only cost me $150 at the show and I got to spend some quality time with Howard (who is one of the nicest guys and funny as can be and he liked me because he said we were probably the only two strong in the room). So, that made it all worthwhile and I don't have a negative feeling toward the commission.

And, price doesn't matter if I really enjoy the commission, so you're correct on that, too. There have been very few that I've bought that I wasn't entirely satisfied with and there were only two that I remember that I was severely disappointed in where I knew that the artists phoned them in. In those two cases, I definitely paid way too much, despite the fact that one cost me $75 and the other cost $150. I never went back to those two artists for commissions again.

I really do like the Phantom Stranger commission. I think PS has a great look, the jawline doesn't bother me one bit and the hat isn't bad at all, in my opinion.

I have a Jonah Hex commission where the artist gave him a fedora instead of a Confederate soldier's hat. It really bothers me to the point that I don't display it and very rarely ever take it out to look at. Jonah's facial scar and eye is great, but the hat makes him look like he's a 1940s detective straight out of a pulp novel rather than a western character.

As I wrote earlier, I'm mellowing about it, and I really like Howard. And, for $150, I wouldn't complain about the tape, either. 

That Tala, though...stunning. Ever hear of the actress Gail Russell? Today, she isn't well known, but probably her best remembered picture is "Angel and the Badman." She played the Quaker love interest to John Wayne's "bad man", Quirt Evans, who, slow reformed.