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STAR WARS : Episode IX December 20, 2019
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2,429 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:
3 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

When it became Kathleen Kennedy's hurdle to deal with probably starts with her being top-of-house in the modern Star Wars film and TV universe. It comes with the job, fortunately or unfortunately.

Is there some blame to go around with George Lucas? Many hardcore fans think so. But the boss now resides in Disney, whether she allows Lucas to influence the roadmap or not.

As head of Star Wars, Kennedy seems to have more hits than misses.

Which would put her in the same boat as virtually every other producer of serial content except for one thing--the existence of Kevin Feige.  Ever since he illustrated that you can consistently and repeatedly guide serial content to both critical and box office excellence we tend to clamor for more.  Clearly Bob Iger does, too, which is why he's giving Feige a movie.

I wouldn't mind if the real goal of Feige's movie is just to have him train Kathleen Kennedy on more effective ways to manage serial content.  He almost certainly has NOTHING to teach her about movie production, but that's not the job she took as the head of LucasFilm, she also took on Lucas's job as caretaker of the content when he sold to Disney.  She's not really doing a LOT better than any other film producers have done in that role.  Maybe a bit better than Avi Arad did at Marvel/Sony/Fox before Feige ascended, but not by much.

Edited by fantastic_four
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28 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

Which would put her in the same boat as virtually every other producer of serial content except for one thing--the existence of Kevin Feige.  Ever since he illustrated that you can consistently and repeatedly guide serial content to both critical and box office excellence we tend to clamor for more.  Clearly Bob Iger does, too, which is why he's giving Feige a movie.

I wouldn't mind if the real goal of Feige's movie is just to have him train Kathleen Kennedy on more effective ways to manage serial content.  He almost certainly has NOTHING to teach her about movie production, but that's not the job she took as the head of LucasFilm, she also took on Lucas's job as caretaker of the content when he sold to Disney.  She's not really doing a LOT better than any other film producers have done in that role.  Maybe a bit better than Avi Arad did at Marvel/Sony/Fox before Feige ascended, but not by much.

Yes - and she's arguably been a better caretaker of the Star Wars mythos than even Lucas was with his prequel trilogy.

People here seem to forget how truly bad The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones were.

And with five movies in (in less than six years) and a hit live-action TV series, she's done *extraordinarily* well.

Particularly as we've seen nearly every other massive universe attempt *other* than Marvel fail that time (including the Universal Pictures monster films, Worlds of DC, & non-Hunger Games dystopic YA films -- from The Giver to Divergent to Wrinkle in Time to Terminator to Fantastic Beasts, etc.) The only other unequivocally successful franchise during the last 6 years that even comes close to Marvel or Star Wars is Fast & the Furious.

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41 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Yes - and she's arguably been a better caretaker of the Star Wars mythos than even Lucas was with his prequel trilogy.

People here seem to forget how truly bad The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones were.

And with five movies in (in less than six years) and a hit live-action TV series, she's done *extraordinarily* well.

Particularly as we've seen nearly every other massive universe attempt *other* than Marvel fail that time (including the Universal Pictures monster films, Worlds of DC, & non-Hunger Games dystopic YA films -- from The Giver to Divergent to Wrinkle in Time to Terminator to Fantastic Beasts, etc.) The only other unequivocally successful franchise during the last 6 years that even comes close to Marvel or Star Wars is Fast & the Furious.

Those movies had some truly great moments, far better highs than anything from the current era, despite some of the faults.

Lucas also wisely continued to contribute and work heavy with the characters well into the Clone Wars cartoon era, (while he did start out rough) became one of the greatest cartoons ever. In both production technology and story.

Edited by Rip
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The most 86% crowd-pleaser film of the year....

RoS_Audience.thumb.PNG.0d249c891da59e188c91f458010b1be7.PNG

...is trailing all four modern Star Wars films by the same day (Day 19).

starwars01.thumb.PNG.f1e17c23164348f435ef160dbbcbed93.PNG

Could it be what day of the week the results were for Day 19?

Force Awakens Day 19 (1/5/16, Tuesday)

Rogue One Day 19 (1/3/17, Tuesday)

The Last Jedi Day 19 (1/2/18, Tuesday)

Rise of Skywalker Day 19 (1/7/20, Tuesday)

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8 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:

As head of Star Wars, Kennedy seems to have more hits than misses. While I disagreed with bringing back the Empire, Force Awakens was still a hit and renewed global interest with the franchise. I didn't like Rogue One but it was a hit with a majority of fans and made money. Solo didn't light up the box office but it seems Star Wars fans liked it. The Mandalorian is a qualified hit for Disney+. Sure, Last Jedi divided fans, but it made money and critics loved it. So how did Kennedy ruin Star Wars again?

She was also not truely the lead producer.  With most of those films she was second in command to the likes of Spielberg.  I would argue much of her success was do to whom she was working with.  Now it can not be argued that she did train under some of the best, and on paper seemed like an exceptional candidate to take over Lucasfilm. 

 

At Lucasfilm, she was truly the top leadership role, possibly for the first time.  She should have had all the tools, and training, I do not think she lived up to her billing.

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On 12/17/2019 at 9:19 PM, Buzzetta said:

So some random thoughts... 

This week I am doing a complete rewatch in the following order and a few highlights from Clone Wars and Rebels (which I had previously seen):

Episodes 1, 2, 3, Solo, Rogue One, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

I just finished Empire and have some random thoughts.

  • Empire is still the best I have seen.
  • Rogue One is incredibly well done and gets better with each viewing. 
  • Solo was better once I saw it shortly before ESB.  Solo is basically a prequel to ESB
  • Donald Glover really did capture Billy Dee in the way that Ewan captured Alec
  • Solo AND Rogue One are actually researched and written way better than I originally gave them credit for especially on Solo.
  • The Asteroid Belt score is one of the best in the series as is the music used for scenes such as Cloud City
  • I really do like every change (update) made in ESB.  Everything from a larger Cloud City to Vader's ship at the end, All Fetts sound the same, to the Emperor being the Emperor instead of Monkey Face is an improvement and eases the flow of the saga.
  • Anakin talks like drama queen in the prequels... however, Vader talks like an drama queen as well.   Anakin: "I'm haunted by the kiss that you should never have given me." Vader: "Today will be a day long remembered. It has seen the death of Kenobi, and will soon see the end of the Rebellion."  Someone has a flair for the dramatic no matter what mask they have on. 
  • The side quests like Solo and the Mandalorian have really done their research in making sure they 'fit' or at least trying to.  The Mandalorian explains what 'no disintegrations' really means. 
  • We don't give Lucas enough credit for the prequels.  Jar Jar aside, he tried something new while still filling in a back story that fits in with what was already done. 
  • I think JJ screwed up with Episode 7 but I can see after watching the whole thing why he would bring back Palpatine.   The saga really is a Palpatine story and the skywalkers that have been manipulated or opposed him. 
  • Sith also gets better with age as far as the story goes. 

More thoughts later. 

So more thoughts...

It is obvious that when Disney erased the expanded universe, labeling it as 'Legends' that there must have been more of a reason than just making it concise.  I had never seen Rebels in it's entirety.  I had only watched the last few episodes of season four when they aired.  However, I have completely watched the Clone Wars, and am currently on Season 4 Episode 3 of Rebels.   So... some more thoughts. 

  • I still believe that the Force Awakens is the laziest storytelling out of all of them.  The only reason I do not put it at the bottom of the list is because of its execution.  Phantom Menace is a better story but poorly executed in the most incredible way. 
  • The Last Jedi AND Rise of Skywalker draw a lot of inspiration from Rebels.  To many people complaining about Leia pulling a Mary Poppins?  Kanan did that in Rebels and freezes over as well.   In fact there were many instances in Star Wars lore where that happens.  I was wrong to be critical of lightsabers calling out to people like Luke's saber did with Rey in the Force Awakens.  Rebels had established that can happen as well. 
  • Rebels is INCREDIBLY well done.  Another boardie and myself have been chatting as he watches Clone Wars and I am watching Rebels and we are astonished about how good they are.  
  • Filoni should be in charge of everything.  End of story. 
  • How Rebels dealt with the rise of the Rebellion is actually quite good and how Dutch, Hobbie, Wedge and other characters came to be.

More later. 

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The Prequels destroy the Sequel Trilogy. They tell a cohesive, coherent story. GL knew where he wanted to begin, and where he wanted to conclude. Hayden acted with his body language and especially with his eyes. The dialogue may not have been great, but Hayden was speaking in a cadence similar to the masked Vader. Standing with his arms behind his back, looking at the landscape of Naboo as he would later use the same stance staring into space or watching the Millennium Falcon escape his clutches. His words to Padme in the Naboo scene... "Your presence...is soothing" - is said in the same way that James Earl Jones speaks his lines for the classic Vader. And there are many more instances of this in 2 and 3. Many people didn't like some of Lucas' decisions, but quite a few didn't understand them either.

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10 hours ago, drotto said:

She was also not truely the lead producer.  With most of those films she was second in command to the likes of Spielberg.  I would argue much of her success was do to whom she was working with.

Except...that if she wasn't truly *exceptional* at her job, Spielberg wouldn't have kept her around.

After apprenticing on Raiders of the Lost Ark and Poltergeist, she served as a or the primary producer on the bulk of Spielberg's films from ET to Lincoln. That's an astounding track record.

And doesn't count additional films she did with others like the Back to the Future trilogy, Twister, The Sixth Sense, etc.

She's about as legit as it gets in Hollywood.

Grossing $5.8 billion (and counting) from the last five Star Wars films is nothing to sneeze at either. That's an *average* of $1.16 billion per film, even counting the $391 million whiff that was Solo.

Edited by Gatsby77
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11 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

The most 86% crowd-pleaser film of the year....

RoS_Audience.thumb.PNG.0d249c891da59e188c91f458010b1be7.PNG

...is trailing all four modern Star Wars films by the same day (Day 19).

starwars01.thumb.PNG.f1e17c23164348f435ef160dbbcbed93.PNG

Could it be what day of the week the results were for Day 19?

Force Awakens Day 19 (1/5/16, Tuesday)

Rogue One Day 19 (1/3/17, Tuesday)

The Last Jedi Day 19 (1/2/18, Tuesday)

Rise of Skywalker Day 19 (1/7/20, Tuesday)

Read an article by that Scott Mendelson fellow at Forbes, which stated that if this film was released at any other time of the year, based on historical tracking it would only had made $800 to $900 million world wide.

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9 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Except...that if she wasn't truly *exceptional* at her job, Spielberg wouldn't have kept her around.

After apprenticing on Raiders of the Lost Ark and Poltergeist, she served as a or the primary producer on the bulk of Spielberg's films from ET to Lincoln. That's an astounding track record.

And doesn't count additional films she did with others like the Back to the Future trilogy, Twister, The Sixth Sense, etc.

She's about as legit as it gets in Hollywood.

Grossing $5.8 billion (and counting) from the last five Star Wars films is nothing to sneeze at either. That's an *average* of $1.16 billion per film, even counting the $391 million whiff that was Solo.

I love when these debates come up how some use box office big results as a negative or a positive.

Transformers: 'Yeah, they made a huge amount of money - but they're garbage'

Worlds of DC: 'Sure, overall they are profitable - but even Transformers movies made a bunch of money and look at those'

Star Wars: 'Yeah, not everyone is happy with them - but they made a bunch of money'

:nyah:

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3 minutes ago, media_junkie said:

Read an article by that Scott Mendelson fellow at Forbes, which stated that if this film was released at any other time of the year, based on historical tracking it would only had made $800 to $900 million world wide.

Why Disney keeps that same spot each year, and now with all its franchises has to trade off each year Avatar vs. Star Wars

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1 minute ago, media_junkie said:

Read an article by that Scott Mendelson fellow at Forbes, which stated that if this film was released at any other time of the year, based on historical tracking it would only had made $800 to $900 million world wide.

I agree with that. The way the holiday calendar played out this year, in particular, gave it an extra three days of kids & families off school that helped juice the early daily totals.

But Mendelson also made a different point sometime over the past month:

That maybe the beancounters are looking at the Star Wars franchise all wrong -- that The Force Awakens' $2.1 billiion was a once-in-a-generation fluke, and that there was no reason to expect a Star Wars film to do better than $900 million - $1.2 billion per.

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2 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

I agree with that. The way the holiday calendar played out this year, in particular, gave it an extra three days of kids & families off school that helped juice the early daily totals.

But Mendelson also made a different point sometime over the past month:

That maybe the beancounters are looking at the Star Wars franchise all wrong -- that The Force Awakens' $2.1 billiion was a once-in-a-generation fluke, and that there was no reason to expect a Star Wars film to do better than $900 million - $1.2 billion per.

I can agree with that for Star Wars films going forward from here, but this one Episode 9 should have, and I feel would have done much better, had the Lucasfilm Leadership had a clear idea of where they wanted the three movies to go.

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BTW - I feel the same way about the Avatar sequels.

James Cameron is one of the best sci-fi / action directors of the last 50 years, and yet he basically stopped working after the twin ridiculous successes of Titanic and Avatar.

The man could have been pumping out new Aliens/Terminator/True Lies - quality original action films over the last two decades, but instead he's bet it all on four supposed Avatar sequels that took a full decade+ to make?

What happens if the next one only grosses $800 million worldwide?

On the one hand - yeah - he's more than earned the right to simply retire; on the other, I feel like we lost a great action voice because he's decided to go all-in on Avatar.

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6 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

BTW - I feel the same way about the Avatar sequels.

James Cameron is one of the best sci-fi / action directors of the last 50 years, and yet he basically stopped working after the twin ridiculous successes of Titanic and Avatar.

The man could have been pumping out new Aliens/Terminator/True Lies - quality original action films over the last two decades, but instead he's bet it all on four supposed Avatar sequels that took a full decade+ to make?

What happens if the next one only grosses $800 million worldwide?

On the one hand - yeah - he's more than earned the right to simply retire; on the other, I feel like we lost a great action voice because he's decided to go all-in on Avatar.

franchise_differences01.PNG.f2a9d4f6c1200de8f98365e05303528a.PNG

:baiting:

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