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STAR WARS : Episode IX December 20, 2019
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2,429 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:

First, I'll preface saying I think "Mary Sue" is a bulls**t term that unfairly picks on female characters. But anyway, the things that Rey was able to do in Force Awakens regarding the Force and her instincts with a light saber while having no training are precisely why she had to have come from a very powerful lineage, such as a Skywalker or a Palpatine. Had she really been a "nobody" as presented in Last Jedi, than she would have indeed been that "Mary Sue" that fanboys were accusing her of being, based on the feats she performed in FA.

I think you jump on that term too quickly as some form of defender of women's rights that nobody else can use it. And although I have seen more than a few people post this for you to help understand better, let's try it again. But with a smile.

Mary Sue is a term used to describe a fictional character, usually female, who is seen as too perfect and almost boring for lack of flaws, originally written as an idealized version of an author in fanfiction.

So it is meant to be a general gender-free term referring to a character with exceptional qualities beyond realistic norms. So stop with the assumption you need to protect female actresses from all these women-hating fanboys. It's ignorant to assume this, unless someone clearly conveys they view women as second-class to male actors. Plus, it distracts from the topic at hand.

In this case, Rey is a Mary Sue. All these capabilities she demonstrated right out of the gate with no progressive buildup for the audience left people split over her character. Though that doesn't mean she wasn't engaging or interesting in these films. It just was a weak way to kick off her journey.

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

I think you jump on that term too quickly as some form of defender of women's rights that nobody else can use it. And although I have seen more than a few people post this for you to help understand better, let's try it again. But with a smile.

Mary Sue is a term used to describe a fictional character, usually female, who is seen as too perfect and almost boring for lack of flaws, originally written as an idealized version of an author in fanfiction.

So it is meant to be a general gender-free term referring to a character with exceptional qualities beyond realistic norms. So stop with the assumption you need to protect female actresses from all these women-hating fanboys. It's ignorant to assume this, unless someone clearly conveys they view women as second-class to male actors. Plus, it distracts from the topic at hand.

In this case, Rey is a Mary Sue. All these capabilities she demonstrated right out of the gate with no progressive buildup for the audience left people split over her character. Though that doesn't mean she wasn't engaging or interesting in these films. It just was a weak way to kick off her journey.

 

 

 

Agreed. Daisy Ridley nailed the part for sure. It was the lazy writing that detracted from the story. I always felt the OT did a good job showing Luke starting as a beginner in IV, then intermediate for V then expert level at VI. 

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1 hour ago, Bosco685 said:

I think you jump on that term too quickly as some form of defender of women's rights that nobody else can use it. And although I have seen more than a few people post this for you to help understand better, let's try it again. But with a smile.

Mary Sue is a term used to describe a fictional character, usually female, who is seen as too perfect and almost boring for lack of flaws, originally written as an idealized version of an author in fanfiction.

So it is meant to be a general gender-free term referring to a character with exceptional qualities beyond realistic norms. So stop with the assumption you need to protect female actresses from all these women-hating fanboys. It's ignorant to assume this, unless someone clearly conveys they view women as second-class to male actors. Plus, it distracts from the topic at hand.

In this case, Rey is a Mary Sue. All these capabilities she demonstrated right out of the gate with no progressive buildup for the audience left people split over her character. Though that doesn't mean she wasn't engaging or interesting in these films. It just was a weak way to kick off her journey.

 

 

 

I’m going to backtrack and say regardless of Rey’s origin, she is not a “Mary Sue” per the “official definition”(LOL). She is far from perfect. In Force Awakens, Rey is introduced as a scavenger, which we learn is the lowest of the low, an untouchable in the universal caste system. At the exchange booth on Jacku, you see her consider, for the briefest moment, cashing in BB-8 for all that money. When she is called to further the heroic journey, she rejects it for selfish reasons, when she wants to return to Jacku to wait for her family that abandoned her. In my eyes, that’s not the picture of perfection.

Of course it’s Rey’s use of the Force and a light saber with no apparent training that angry fans really point at as Rey being “ perfect” and lacking a progressive build up towards her extraordinary feats. However, I saw it as a mystery. Why was she so powerful? Was she Luke’s daughter or something? Had she been trained but had amnesia about it? Because the movie was known to be part of a trilogy, it was okay to not immediately answer the sudden mystery of Rey. I personally thought she was either the reincarnation of Anakin or a female clone of Palpatine. But whatever. Had Rey’s mystery not been revealed in subsequent movies, then yes, Rey’s use of the Force with no training could be seen as poor storytelling, relatively speaking. But we obviously now know that the filmmakers did indeed present Rey as a mystery to be revealed so, from that point of view, it wasn’t poor storytelling, was it?

Edited by @therealsilvermane
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8 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

I’m going to backtrack and say regardless of Rey’s origin, she is not a “Mary Sue” per the “official definition”(LOL). She is far from perfect. In Force Awakens, Rey is introduced as a scavenger, which we learn is the lowest of the low, an untouchable in the universal caste system. At the exchange booth on Jacku, you see her consider, for the briefest moment, cashing in BB-8 for all that money. When she is called to further the heroic journey, she rejects it for selfish reasons, when she wants to return to Jacku to wait for her family that abandoned her. In my eyes, that’s not the picture of perfection.

Of course it’s Rey’s use of the Force and a light saber with no apparent training that angry fans really point at as Rey being “ perfect” and lacking a progressive build up towards her extraordinary feats. However, I saw it as a mystery. Why was she so powerful? Was she Luke’s daughter or something? Because the movie was known to be part of a trilogy, it was okay to not immediately answer the sudden mystery of Rey. I personally thought she was either the reincarnation of Anakin or a female clone of Palpatine. But whatever. Had Rey’s mystery not been revealed in subsequent movies, then yes, Rey’s use of the Force with no training could be seen as poor storytelling, relatively speaking. But we obviously now know that the filmmakers did indeed present Rey as a mystery to be revealed so, from that point of view, it wasn’t poor storytelling, was it?

Glad to see you finally recognize you were over-reacting to a term because you misunderstood the intent.

:nyah:

It's still a weak story approach to have her appear from nowhere as an all-powerful being. And it is easy to backtrack on the plot mistake by afterwards claiming 'We meant this the entire time' when it is finally rectified through later changes to the story. Right?

Imagine if Thanos had started out in the MCU as a direct threat to the universe without having to work through other agents. Boring. 

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3 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

It's still a weak story approach to have her appear from nowhere as an all-powerful being. And it is easy to backtrack on the plot mistake by afterwards claiming 'We meant this the entire time' when it is finally rectified through later changes to the story. Right?

It was obvious to me anyway that Abrams meant for Rey to be a mystery and had plans for her in the later film. That’s what we saw play out in both Last Jedi with its reversal of expectations and ROS where Abrams returns to the direction he obviously, to me, had for Rey. 

Now, in FA, could JJ Abrams have gone about the intro to Rey’s Force powers more subtly and with maybe a hint of training? Maybe. But that also might have blunted the impact of Rey’s mysterious power. If she’d had some training in the movie, one could just chalk up what she does to her being a quick study like Luke. However, the fact that we are shown no training of Rey makes her initial ability to resist Kylo Ren's mind read, use a Jedi mind trick, and wield a light saber stand out that much more and make one think that there’s more to this girl than just being a scavenger with the Force. This was too much power. It was impactful and created discussion amongst fans after the movie was over. 

In turn, this mystery of Rey presented in FA built up excitement for the sequel where we might not only learn more about Luke but also who the mysterious Rey is and why she was so powerful. I remember the internet and folks I know going abuzz trying to figure out the puzzle of Rey. Perhaps this was actually clever storytelling by JJ Abrams designed to stoke excitement/interest and get people in the theater for the sequel?

Edited by @therealsilvermane
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8 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Perhaps this was actually clever storytelling by JJ Abrams designed to stoke excitement/interest and get people in the theater for the sequel?

Oh, now JJ Abrams is a clever storyteller? In your own words recently...

On 12/23/2019 at 9:12 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

It seems to me that the events in Rise of Skywalkers was Abrams’ gameplan from the start after Force Awakened i.e. Luke’s mission, Rey’s lineage, Palpatine’s return, everything. Since Abrams (a lousy storyteller to begin with) only had one movie now to play out those events and “course correct” from Last Jedi, it gave the plot of Skywalker a crammed feel.

I think K. Kennedy, after Abrams left, saw an opportunity to try something different with the second movie and the rest is history. Rey can’t have been a nobody, she had to have a special lineage. There’s no way she could do what she did in Force Awakens otherwise. Abrams knew this and had to bring the story back around to the original game plan, which included also revealing Luke’s noble Jedi mission on the island and him not being such a loser. 

I guess it depends on what day of the week it is for you whether he had this all planned out, or if Rian Johnson saved him by giving 'the gift' that is The Last Jedi.

hm :nyah:

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Purportedly Colin Trevorrow's original -script treatment: https://news.avclub.com/turns-out-colin-trevorrows-version-of-star-wars-episod-1841002112

Interesting summary and discussion of it here, although only one answer so far: https://www.quora.com/What-do-you-like-and-dislike-about-Colin-Trevorrows-leaked--script-for-Star-Wars-IX

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I find the Trevorrow -script treatment fascinating because it shows the initial planned follow-up to Rian Johnson's film - and verifies - for instance, that Palpatine's addition as the new big bad was indeed last-minute (which we knew, since there were no hints given in the prior two films).

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57 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

I find the Trevorrow -----script treatment fascinating because it shows the initial planned follow-up to Rian Johnson's film - and verifies - for instance, that Palpatine's addition as the new big bad was indeed last-minute (which we knew, since there were no hints given in the prior two films).

Again, one of my first thoughts after watching Force Awakens was that Palpatine had somehow returned. If Abrams was going to go there and straight up mirror the other trilogies and bring back the Empire, then the return of the Emperor made complete sense from a certain point of view. My thought was that Palpatine’s phantom ghost was pulling the strings. Of course, in ROS we see it’s his actual body. This raised an interesting question for me. How do the Sith view eternal life? The Jedi live on as Force ghosts. Non-canon SW literature aside, perhaps the Sith don’t view it this way. Perhaps they only believe in the physical, the corporeal? Where the Jedi view the body as a shell and live on in spirit form, the Sith live on through cloning and dark science to keep the physical body alive. 

I fully think Abrams began his initial part of the sequel trilogy with every intent of this new phantom menace being Palpatine. It seems Lucasfilm also wanted to experiment and let different filmmakers give their take on the story. Fine, except Rian J. takes the story in a new direction and divides the fan base. In response, Lucasfilm course corrected and let Abrams just finish his story he had intended in his mind.

After FA, I theorized that Rey was a clone of Palpatine bred so his ghost could possess her body to return to the physical world, and that she was taken by whomever to hide her from him. My theory wasn’t far off. The reason I guessed Palpatine was behind everything was because JJ Abrams had given us every other piece of the Star Wars puzzle. All the original primary players were there in one form or another. Luke, Han, Leia, the Death Star on steroids, even Vader. The only player missing was Palpatine. It had to be him and nobody else.

Edited by @therealsilvermane
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3 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

Oh, now JJ Abrams is a clever storyteller? In your own words recently...

I guess it depends on what day of the week it is for you whether he had this all planned out, or if Rian Johnson saved him by giving 'the gift' that is The Last Jedi.

hm :nyah:

I didn’t say Abrams was a great storyteller. I get lost watching his TV stuff. I didn’t care for his Star Trek films, especially the last one. When I heard he got Star Wars, my initial thought was if he’d explain things away with a parallel universe. I was disappointed to see his take on SW was just to mirror A New Hope. Though, with the prior response to the Prequels, I can see why they went this way.  Abrams does seem to create memorable characters. I thought Finn and Poe were cool, and I was intrigued by Rey. My comment of clever storytelling in FA was simply the idea of presenting the impact of Rey using the Force and shortly ending on the compelling cliffhangers of Rey and Luke’s mysteries. Wasn’t necessarily great, just clever as it sparked great interest in the sequel.

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Saw this with my girlfriend as well and we were both underwhelmed. It wasn't a bad movie, but both the Joker and last Avengers movie blew it away.

Personally Star Wars isn't dead because the video game Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order  rocked.

 

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While I liked Coruscant and Mortis being in Trevorrow's (alleged) version I think he graves mishandles both Rey and Kylo. Especially Kylo as he becomes a dumb cartoon. So glad they didn't use this.

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40 minutes ago, Rip said:

While I liked Coruscant and Mortis being in Trevorrow's (alleged) version I think he graves mishandles both Rey and Kylo. Especially Kylo as he becomes a dumb cartoon. So glad they didn't use this.

As opposed to the entirety of Rise of Skywalker being a dumb cartoon?

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4 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:

I didn’t say Abrams was a great storyteller. I get lost watching his TV stuff. I didn’t care for his Star Trek films, especially the last one. When I heard he got Star Wars, my initial thought was if he’d explain things away with a parallel universe. I was disappointed to see his take on SW was just to mirror A New Hope. Though, with the prior response to the Prequels, I can see why they went this way.  Abrams does seem to create memorable characters. I thought Finn and Poe were cool, and I was intrigued by Rey. My comment of clever storytelling in FA was simply the idea of presenting the impact of Rey using the Force and shortly ending on the compelling cliffhangers of Rey and Luke’s mysteries. Wasn’t necessarily great, just clever as it sparked great interest in the sequel.

Whether it was planned or not, something feels off at times with this modern run. And it may come down to Kathleen Kennedy not serving as the steward of the Star Wars storyline and lore, and allowing multiple directors to cut loose.

Add to this Solo was inserted in without a feeling of enhancing the backstory of Star Wars, and it comes off as throwing out anything to capture revenue without a logical plan. Just quick hits to fascinate people based on nostalgia.

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I'll take Tom and Jerry over current Simpsons .

Here's another great line from Trevorrow

Rose: "Rich folks don't spend much time thinking about who and what they're standing on." 

I'll take "They can fly now?" over that anyday. 

Edited by Rip
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26 minutes ago, Rip said:

I'll take Tom and Jerry over current Simpsons .

This we should all agree on, the Simpsons hasn't been funny since about 2002.

26 minutes ago, Rip said:

Here's another great line from Trevorrow

Rose: "Rich folks don't spend much time thinking about who and what they're standing on." 

I'll take "They can fly now?" over that anyday. 

While I'd agree that throwing class warfare into Star Wars was completely unnecessary, I'd still rather they try to break new ground than just rework some greatest hits and try to disguise them as new material.

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