Incredible Hulk #181 - is it *that* red-hot? 17 17

[Mjolnir!]

3 hours ago, MGsimba77 said:

Yeah ofcourse I was just getting at the willingness part. I just don't necessarily think it's an insane decision from their point of view. But hey at the end of the day whether someone thinks insanity is required to spend 30k + on a collectors item is relative. Maybe some non collectors look at you funny others no?

Yeah I see what you're getting at.  For most who are affluent and they want the book, money isn't really an issue.

I And even though I'm wealthier than most, I'm also frugal, which is the reason I'm better off than most.  It's that frugality that's hard to turn off sometime.  But I did turn it off (or so I thought) when I spent 2k for my IH -181.

Even though I can afford today's prices in any grade, I can't see myself pulling the trigger. 

But like you stated, others will do it because...we'll they can (HG) and it's a big desire to fulfill to have one.  

[Mjolnir!]

3 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

Well, being able to get a 9.0 graded for $3500 or less. I mean reachable is a relative term I know. But now $20,000 for a 9.0? That is not reachable.

But even if it was reachable, and I mean just within reach, would you spend 20k and buy it?

[Randall Ries]

6 hours ago, Mjolnir! said:

But even if it was reachable, and I mean just within reach, would you spend 20k and buy it?

No, Thor's hammer. I would not. It is not a rare book. Hundreds and thousands of copies available. This is ONLY MY OPINION AND NOT A JUDGMENT.

I would spend 20k on a Golden Age book. I could get a snappin' Batman #9 or 11 for that money. True rarity. True pride of ownership. I understand why people want IH 181. They are Marvel fans, Wolverine fans and fans of money. I imagine many simply want one to say they have one. Be part of the club. I never had a burning desire to stand next to the IH 181 fire. I respect the book but it isn't important enough to me to shell $20k.

That fact seems to be it's simply the buyers who are driving the prices. Willing to pay terrible sums to say "I own an IH 181". Telling sellers "I'll lpay anything you ask! Just GIMME! My ego DEMANDS it!"

Batman #9 was the last time Joker killed until Bat 251. That's more relevant to me. And it's a tough cover and hard to get in high grade. Just look at those newly graded Golden age books that are being talked about here. Those things are truly rare. And works of art.

A few years ago, I approached my wife and said "I'd like to get this 9.0 IH 181 book. It's $3700. It's going up in value." I was told no and then felt "whatever". Didn't revisit it again.

So, I watched the prices go up. I didn't feel much. That told me it was pretty much a money thing that I would have applied to the book. I just don't value money that much. I value the books. I bought a 7.0 All Star Comics #7 instead. IMO, it's a key that's more relevant than Wolverines 1st app.

More power to the buyers of IH 181. I don't hope it crashes in value. I just don't understand why people would shell out that kind of dough for a common book. I really think it's the buyers who are causing the price spikes. Not the book itself. It's a bandwagon book.

[JTD]

23 minutes ago, Randall Ries said:

No, Thor's hammer. I would not. It is not a rare book. Hundreds and thousands of copies available. This is ONLY MY OPINION AND NOT A JUDGMENT.

I would spend 20k on a Golden Age book. I could get a snappin' Batman #9 or 11 for that money. True rarity. True pride of ownership. I understand why people want IH 181. They are Marvel fans, Wolverine fans and fans of money. I imagine many simply want one to say they have one. Be part of the club. I never had a burning desire to stand next to the IH 181 fire. I respect the book but it isn't important enough to me to shell $20k.

That fact seems to be it's simply the buyers who are driving the prices. Willing to pay terrible sums to say "I own an IH 181". Telling sellers "I'll lpay anything you ask! Just GIMME! My ego DEMANDS it!"

Batman #9 was the last time Joker killed until Bat 251. That's more relevant to me. And it's a tough cover and hard to get in high grade. Just look at those newly graded Golden age books that are being talked about here. Those things are truly rare. And works of art.

A few years ago, I approached my wife and said "I'd like to get this 9.0 IH 181 book. It's $3700. It's going up in value." I was told no and then felt "whatever". Didn't revisit it again.

So, I watched the prices go up. I didn't feel much. That told me it was pretty much a money thing that I would have applied to the book. I just don't value money that much. I value the books. I bought a 7.0 All Star Comics #7 instead. IMO, it's a key that's more relevant than Wolverines 1st app.

More power to the buyers of IH 181. I don't hope it crashes in value. I just don't understand why people would shell out that kind of dough for a common book. I really think it's the buyers who are causing the price spikes. Not the book itself. It's a bandwagon book.

The value of IH 181 is simply supply and demand...they are very liquid and in demand, more so than the Batman’s you mentioned...if you have 3M of something and 4M people want them, it drives prices higher...economics 101...like anything else, it’s value is what someone is willing to pay for it...

[Randall Ries]

Just now, JTD said:

The value of IH 181 is simply supply and demand...they are very liquid and in demand, more so than the Batman’s you mentioned...if you have 3M of something and 4M people want them, it drives prices higher...economics 101...like anything else, it’s value is what someone is willing to pay for it...

That sort of reinforces my initial point. There really IS no shortage of IH 181. Anyone who wants one can have one. Unfortunately, the buyers are the ones driving up the "value". The demand is being created by the "IH 181 Fever". I have to ask: How many people actually WANT and LOVE the book to have v WANTING to see a RETURN on their INVESTMENT? The answer isn't "Well, people can do BOTH!" Sure they can. The question is how many people making up the buying pool are simply looking for a payday a year or two from now? When prices stabilize to the point of neutral, the market will be flooded with a book that's easy to get.

The question I was asked is if I was to spend $20k, would it be on a common, easily attainable comic? No. $20k is a lot of money. I'd buy something with actual rarity and frankly more of a "cool" factor. Something with style and class. The Batman books I mentioned are in demand in mid-high/high grade. 11 especially is seeing a rise in value. The difference is there aren't a zillion copies available to choose from.

[The Lions Den]

37 minutes ago, Randall Ries said:

The difference is there aren't a zillion copies available to choose from.

To be honest, Hulk #181 is probably the most common comic book from that era that I've ever seen. It's like they did a triple print run just for the occasion...

[Randall Ries]

11 hours ago, The Lions Den said:

To be honest, Hulk #181 is probably the most common comic book from that era that I've ever seen. It's like they did a triple print run just for the occasion...

That would be a great research project. The Wolverine character WAS the result of that boy winning for his submitted entry of a new character. That's a good point. Even here on the boards, people are pulling raw IH 181's out of a hat. Then, there was the rumor about someone holding cases of the book found in a warehouse.

[The Lions Den]

2 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

That would be a great research project. The Wolverine character WAS the result of that boy winning for his submitted entry of a new character. That's a good point. Even here on the boards, people are pulling raw IH 181's out of a hat. Then, there was the rumor about someone holding cases of the book found in a warehouse.

[Pantodude]

Continued skepticism regarding current valuations does not suprise me.  But let's try to add some objectivity to this old (and I do mean OLD) warehouse rumor.

This decades-old rumor resurfaces every few years, most recently during the years just before the pandemic, and usually coinciding with an uptick in IH181 values.  And after each time, it became less and less plausible that these rumored hoarders would have ignored the opportunity, time and time again, decade after decade, to sell their IH181s for a tidy profit.  If these supposed hoarders with cases of IH181 have not sold already, then what the heck are they waiting for!   As in the mid-2000s (if I recall correctly), just FOUR years ago we thought IH181 couldn't go any higher, and yet here we are again.  Any rational hoarder would have sold a substantial portion (if not all) of any stash years ago, and if not, then certainly by 2017.  And taken to the extreme, if these rumored hoarders haven't sold their stash by now, then we can assume that they never will or at least not all at once  If so, the rumored stash will likely remain IRRELEVANT to the supply/demand equation for this book, especially considering how old these rumors are.   

At this point, the warehouse rumor (and make no mistake about it -- a rumor is all it has ever been for how many decades now?) could sound like sour grapes.  I wouldn't go that far.  With all the strangeness of the past year, I can't blame people for being more cautious and skeptical regarding valuations of all books, not just this one.  But as with some other vintage keys, it really could be as simple as this.  The ship truly has sailed for some folks to acquire this book in higher grades.  Perhaps we should just leave it at that?  That said, I wouldn't mind too much if a stash were found because I always enjoy treasure-find stories!     

Edited May 9, 2021 by Pantodude

[Randall Ries]

1 hour ago, Pantodude said:

At this point, the warehouse rumor (and make no mistake about it -- a rumor is all it has ever been for how many decades now?) could sound like sour grapes.  I wouldn't go that far.  With all the strangeness of the past year, I can't blame people for being more cautious and skeptical regarding valuations of all books, not just this one.  But as with some other vintage keys, it really could be as simple as this.  The ship truly has sailed for some folks to acquire this book in higher grades.  Perhaps we should just leave it at that?  That said, I wouldn't mind too much if a stash were found because I always enjoy treasure-find stories!     

Right on. I only first heard the rumor earlier this year. No idea it was decades old. It's intriguing. Many rumors are based in some sort of fact. I have to agree with your assessment, though. The knee jerk to sell them rapidly at any given price jump point would probably have been tough to ignore.

I LOVE those stories where a fresh, gigantic collection of books are found. The only thing I DON'T like is that I wasn't the one who found them.

[Mjolnir!]

31 minutes ago, Randall Ries said:

Right on. I only first heard the rumor earlier this year. No idea it was decades old. It's intriguing. Many rumors are based in some sort of fact. I have to agree with your assessment, though. The knee jerk to sell them rapidly at any given price jump point would probably have been tough to ignore.

I LOVE those stories where a fresh, gigantic collection of books are found. The only thing I DON'T like is that I wasn't the one who found them.

You mean WE.....we were not the ones who found them. 

[Randall Ries]

3 hours ago, Mjolnir! said:

You mean WE.....we were not the ones who found them. 

 

[MGsimba77]

On 5/8/2021 at 9:46 PM, The Lions Den said:

To be honest, Hulk #181 is probably the most common comic book from that era that I've ever seen. It's like they did a triple print run just for the occasion...

This question of how many 181s were printed has been brought up a number of times on these boards and probably on this thread. I don't think the exact number is ever disclosed by the publishers or printers. I've read the estimate of 200k tossed around here in the past which is not much different than standard in 1974 unless I'm mistaken? I agree with the view often expressed here that the reason for the availability stems from demand not a higher print run. There are some older boardies who posted about unsold copies being returned to the publisher as was standard back in the day so take that for whatever its worth. Maybe there are a few older guys on this thread who can shed a little light on whether this book flew off the shelves causing marvel to burn out the printing press? I'd say anecdotal reports from comic readers/collectors back then are way more important than subjective estimates of today based on cgc submissions. 

[MGsimba77]

It be most helpful btw if we had a definitive print run # of Marvel DC comics from all vintages! Just like it would be to have cgc breakout PQ information in the census....but that's another story 

[mcduckz]

On 5/8/2021 at 8:14 PM, Randall Ries said:

More power to the buyers of IH 181. I don't hope it crashes in value. I just don't understand why people would shell out that kind of dough for a common book. I really think it's the buyers who are causing the price spikes. Not the book itself. It's a bandwagon book.

I don't disagree with your overall post, but IH181 is only common in context to SA and GA keys.  Yeah, there are quite a few, even in higher grades, but the number of collectors and investors in the hobby has grown by leaps and bounds the last 2 decades.  There is decidedly a more diverse and more international fanbase than ever before and it seems only to grow with every new movie.  Also, I firmly believe prices are most heavily driven by nostalgia.  People want to own key issues of what they remember enjoying as children.  Well, all the folks who were kids when the first X-Men movies came out are now hitting that age where they have plenty of expendable funds.  Couple these factors with renewed speculation due to movie rumors and, BAM, prices jump.  Suddenly those "common" books start to disappear.

Edited May 10, 2021 by mcduckz

[alexgross.com]

@Randall Ries you do seem to hope for a hulk 181 crash, you've been talking this book down for as long as i've noticed you on the boards. 

it'd be great if you'd move on now. your opinion seems to be based on nothing other than the fact that there are a lot of copies of this book out there. 

here's a thread (page 3 specifically) from 6 years ago, guy here bought a 9.6 copy for around 6k, a record high at the time. at about 30k now, he's quintupled his investment. whether or not we see a market correction this year, hulk 181 has proven, beyond a doubt, that it continues to be the #1 most desired bronze age comic bar none. supply AND demand.  please let all the dozens of boardies that keep telling you you're wrong argue about something more interesting now, like which issue is logans 1st appearance.

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/351529-the-hulk-181-club/page/3/#comments

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by alexgross.com

[mcduckz]

1 hour ago, alexgross.com said:

here's a thread (page 3 specifically) from 6 years ago, guy here bought a 9.6 copy for around 6k, a record high at the time. at about 30k now, he's quintupled his investment.

 

To further reinforce this, that is 25-30% per year ROI.  That's better return on investment than many other things over the last 6 years.  If only all our favorite issues had that sort of appreciation!

Edited May 10, 2021 by mcduckz

[miscus555]

181 could go down...the Venom 2 trailer just dropped. Maybe people will start flocking to the ultra plentiful ASM361 for Carnage's FA  now

 

[Randall Ries]

3 hours ago, alexgross.com said:

@Randall Ries you do seem to hope for a hulk 181 crash, you've been talking this book down for as long as i've noticed you on the boards. 

it'd be great if you'd move on now. your opinion seems to be based on nothing other than the fact that there are a lot of copies of this book out there. 

here's a thread (page 3 specifically) from 6 years ago, guy here bought a 9.6 copy for around 6k, a record high at the time. at about 30k now, he's quintupled his investment. whether or not we see a market correction this year, hulk 181 has proven, beyond a doubt, that it continues to be the #1 most desired bronze age comic bar none. supply AND demand.  please let all the dozens of boardies that keep telling you you're wrong argue about something more interesting now, like which issue is logans 1st appearance.

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/351529-the-hulk-181-club/page/3/#comments

 

Sorry, man. I have also mentioned I do NOT "want" it to crash nor do I hope it to. I don't WANT people to lose money at all. Especially these days. I AM trying to point out that it is TOO MUCH money to pay for such a plentiful book. THAT is my OPINION. I feel the BUYERS are driving the prices up. Not a specific rarity of other books and pieces we see being sold and collected.

I would still love to see a graph of those who collect the book because they are Wolverine fans VS those who have a lot of cash and are simply buying it like a hedge fund. Bet the latter is greater than the former. When other things in other markets rise as sharply and as quickly as this book has, there is always a crash. I'm sorry, but I don't believe for a moment that in the last 2-3 years, there has suddenly been a huge demographic of people who suddenly sat bolt upright and said "Oh, MAN. I GOTTA get me an IH 181 and cost be jiggered!" You know?

As far as the other stuff? I have an opinion and I will voice it, thanks very much. I don't think I have ever got into someones face like you just did and told them to shut up about their viewpoint. Not here or in real life. If you can't hack it, then you know my name. Just don't read my posts.

[Randall Ries]

5 hours ago, mcduckz said:

I don't disagree with your overall post, but IH181 is only common in context to SA and GA keys.  Yeah, there are quite a few, even in higher grades, but the number of collectors and investors in the hobby has grown by leaps and bounds the last 2 decades.  There is decidedly a more diverse and more international fanbase than ever before and it seems only to grow with every new movie.  Also, I firmly believe prices are most heavily driven by nostalgia.  People want to own key issues of what they remember enjoying as children.  Well, all the folks who were kids when the first X-Men movies came out are now hitting that age where they have plenty of expendable funds.  Couple these factors with renewed speculation due to movie rumors and, BAM, prices jump.  Suddenly those "common" books start to disappear.

I understand and agree. This book is different now in that it hasn't been the span of decades. It's been the span of 2-5 years when suddenly this book hit the gas to unreasonable $$ heights while still having plenty of issues to go around.

Also, I have been told I was "wrong" for suggesting movies and tv are driving the pricing up. I am not wrong. Marvel is killing it with quality product and halfway decent writing with electronic media. Of course people are going to gravitate toward whatever they just saw on the big screen.

And the words "Market" and "Speculation" keep getting bandied about. Which suggests to me it is no longer about the love of a certain title or character, but about trying to invest in hopes of a payday. Saying it's all about the 1st appearance of Wolverine is a polite way to try to shield people from recognizing their own greed and investment fervor. The number of people buying this book out of l0ve for the characters vs buying it in hopes of a quick and big payday are I imagine 75% Big Payday - 25% I want this book for the book itself.

And that is the way I collect. I still collect for the want of a certain artist, writer or character. I was put off by Wolverine a long time ago in the 1970's and just was not interested. I had an IH 182. Does that count? I liked Hammer and Anvil. LOL!

If given a choice between Avengers 4 or IH 181? AV4 all day. Every Day. Every way.

But FEAR NOT! I am usually wrong about this kind of thing. My opinion or viewpoint never counts for much. And in the instances I was right all along, people find a way to rationalize their way out of it. And the world keeps turning. And perhaps my opinion on this matter is borne along by my actual hope that collectors DON'T get burned. Myself, I hate getting burned by the people or things that I have feelings for.