Comic Verification Authority (CVA) ?!?!?! 2 2

[jevlnuts]

I was looking through some books at Heritage Auctions and ComicLinks and noticed something new. (New is relative, I haven't been on auction sites for quite sometime). I noticed that in upper left hand corner of certain books there is a "CVA Sticker" attached to the outside of the slab's case, I have attached some pictures at the bottom. After looking up the sticker, it would appear that there is a company out there providing some sort of ridiculous and redundant "certification" or "quasi-grading". Specifically there website says 

"CVA's proprietary, tamper-evident holographic sticker provides assurance that the comic book you own has met our strict standards for outstanding eye appeal and superior structure within the numerical grade assigned by CGC. CVA's distinctive sticker allows collectors, dealers and investors, with any level of experience, to easily identify these premium-quality examples in any grade.  A CVA endorsement adds value for anyone interested in the CGC graded comic book market, buyers and sellers alike." 

Perhaps I am off base but this seems ridiculous to me. Granted we live in a world in which grading has become necessary, like it or not grading is here to stay. But another additional company that is "certifying" books without opening the slab and for instance saying a CGC 7.0 is not just a 7.0....it is an "exceptional 7.0". This is ridiculous and will more than likely only add to inflated prices of books out there. How much more complicated can we make this hobby/business and how many more companies are going to put their moronic spin on grading. 

There are plenty of people on here with much more experience and expertise than me, so maybe there is something I am missing or perhaps they can enlighten me, but from where I am sitting right now this is just plain dumb and hopefully something that does not catch on. 

Here is a link to their website http://cvacomics.com ...I dont know how long they have been operating. Maybe this has been going on for a while and I just have been oblivious, but I have never seen it before....looking for thoughts and opinions.

 (Their "exceptional" sticker)

 (Their "Gold" sticker)

 (This photo from there site demonstrates how it is tamper proof)

Edited January 27, 2018 by jevlnuts

[revat]

People here generally think it’s ridic too.  Don’t even trip

[RockMyAmadeus]

?!?!?!?!?!

[1950's war comics]

Numismatics has always led the way and "the exceptional for grade" sticker does work somewhat for coin collectors, but of course with a slabbed silver dollar you can still examine the whole coin through the slab.

 

this company is just trying to cash in on the hot comic book market but there is no comparison and the CVA sticker adds zero value...

Edited January 27, 2018 by 1950's war comics

[Martin Sinescu]

What 1950's said. All that sticker does is crowd up the label even more. 

I will say this, though, there certainly are books in all grades that present poorly and those that look beautiful for their grade. The thing is, if this "exceptional" modifier were designated by CGC themselves, who do not take things like wonky wraps and off-center cuts into account with the technical grade, it would carry some weight. There exists an outside service for this because it's an area where CGC's grading leaves something to be desired. However, I can also use my own eye-test to sort these things out and it doesn't take more than being able to zoom in on a photo.  Admittedly, when CGC first came around and I was buying graded books, I was buying purely on the grade and didn't even notice the visual presentation. After a while, I became much more sensitive about the presentation, but with this in mind I can see where the designation can guide an uncultured eye (which seem to be the ones spending lots of money these days).

[blazingbob]

Can't Verify Anything since they are doing it through two layers of plastic.

Anything to collect a "toll" from the collecting/buying community.

 

[jevlnuts]

9 hours ago, revat said:

People here generally think it’s ridic too.  Don’t even trip

 Good, so its not just me.

 

[jevlnuts]

3 hours ago, Martin Sinescu said:

What 1950's said. All that sticker does is crowd up the label even more. 

I will say this, though, there certainly are books in all grades that present poorly and those that look beautiful for their grade. The thing is, if this "exceptional" modifier were designated by CGC themselves, who do not take things like wonky wraps and off-center cuts into account with the technical grade, it would carry some weight. There exists an outside service for this because it's an area where CGC's grading leaves something to be desired. However, I can also use my own eye-test to sort these things out and it doesn't take more than being able to zoom in on a photo.  Admittedly, when CGC first came around and I was buying graded books, I was buying purely on the grade and didn't even notice the visual presentation. After a while, I became much more sensitive about the presentation, but with this in mind I can see where the designation can guide an uncultured eye (which seem to be the ones spending lots of money these days).

A lot of good points. The visual presentation of the book is definitely important, but like you said you can use your own eyes to determine that and I feel like most collectors have enough experience in the business to determine presentation value themselves as well. And I tend to agree, if this was something that CGC themselves were doing, then MAYBE it would hold a little water, but an outside company doing this means very little to me. Like yourself and 1950's said, I agree its just a company trying to find a way to make money, its just ridiculous to me. Maybe I will create a company that grades the quality of the case of the label CGC puts in the slab, or a company to grade the sticker CVA puts on the slab .

 

[Get Marwood & I]

If the concensus is that CVA adds no value because we ourselves are able to determine eye appeal, then why do we a need CGC? Like many others, I don't need CVA to tell me that a book has great eye appeal / superior centering etc.  But I don't need CGC to grade for me either. CGC are respected by many for providing their service, which helps those who can't grade or spot restoration etc. Why are we so critical of another company for providing their service? If my Mum wanted to secretly buy me a comic for my birthday,  which would I want her to buy me - an AF15 with or without a CVA sticker?

It would be a silly statement to say that a CGC graded book commands the same money as an equivalent raw. The CGC encapsulation adds value financially.  So, if we have two graded books in the same grade, one with a CVA and one without - the CVA will almost certainly get the owner more money at auction, meaning the sticker adds value.

Poor CVA. Give them a break. They're not hurting anybody, and all they're doing is providing a service that CGC, for whatever reason, choose not to. 

[blazingbob]

22 minutes ago, Marwood & I said:

If the concensus is that CVA adds no value because we ourselves are able to determine eye appeal, then why do we a need CGC? Like many others, I don't need CVA to tell me that a book has great eye appeal / superior centering etc.  But I don't need CGC to grade for me either. CGC are respected by many for providing their service, which helps those who can't grade or spot restoration etc. Why are we so critical of another company for providing their service? If my Mum wanted to secretly buy me a comic for my birthday,  which would I want her to buy me - an AF15 with or without a CVA sticker?

It would be a silly statement to say that a CGC graded book commands the same money as an equivalent raw. The CGC encapsulation adds value financially.  So, if we have two graded books in the same grade, one with a CVA and one without - the CVA will almost certainly get the owner more money at auction, meaning the sticker adds value.

Poor CVA. Give them a break. They're not hurting anybody, and all they're doing is providing a service that CGC, for whatever reason, choose not to. 

CGC is grading "by committee",  you are grading "by individual".  Unless I'm missing something has the hobby universally accepted Marvood and I Grading standards?  Possibly.  But there are still those that wont accept the grade unless it is "graded by committee" and in a holder.  I can grade a comic,  however the first "monkey fingers" at a show can quickly take my raw 9.2 down to a VG+ with a nice well place thumb taking out the overhang.  Little harder to do that with a book in a CGC holder.

Edited January 27, 2018 by blazingbob

[Get Marwood & I]

4 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

CGC is grading "by committee",  you are grading "by individual".  Unless I'm missing something has the hobby universally accepted Marvood and I Grading standards?  Possibly.  But there are still those that want accept the grade unless it is "graded by committee" and in a holder.  I can grade a comic,  however the first "monkey fingers" at a show can quickly take my raw 9.2 down to a VG+ with a nice well place thumb taking out the overhang.  Little harder to do that with a book in a CGC holder.

I don't see how that fits with the points I was making Bob. People are saying CVA add no value. I'm saying they do, for the right people, in the same way that CGC do for some people.

How nice will your CGC book be when "monkey fingers" drops it and cracks the case? Or when he refuses to buy it because of Newton rings. Or shaken book syndrome. Or a labeling error. Or because the book is being slowly throttled. 

And who is this Marvood chap? He sounds Asian. 

Look, CGC books are fine. I've owned about 300 in my time. Sold 200 and they undoubtedly made me more by being slabbed, and broke the other 100 out so I could get acquainted with them. Lots of pros for getting a book graded. I just don't like to see CVA derided for identifying an opportunity that CGC should have locked down already.

Besides,  a thread where everyone agrees is a little dull, no?

[Get Marwood & I]

4 hours ago, Martin Sinescu said:

but with this in mind I can see where the designation can guide an uncultured eye (which seem to be the ones spending lots of money these days).

That's what I was trying to say! Albeit my Mum has very cultured eyes 

[90sChild]

If you can't look at a book yourself and make your own decision on if it looks better than the grade or not, why are you even collecting graded comics to begin with. 
From my point of view, the 'idea' this 'company' has come up is on par with somebody thinking to themselves "This book looks really nice to me and my opinion is really important and other people should know that too".  "I will charge money for this".

Edited January 27, 2018 by 90sChild

[MGsimba77]

Apparently it had an effect on someone at C-link. I was bidding on a cva certified book (not because it had that seal) but because obviously it was a book I wanted & had great centering. I had a reserve bid that was far & away above market range. Some dude outbid me by 100 freakin dollars at the very last second. Whomever it was went like 3x above market 

Congrats to them I guess

Edited January 27, 2018 by MGsimba77

[Get Marwood & I]

8 minutes ago, 90sChild said:

If you can't look at a book yourself and make your own decision on if it looks better than the grade or not, why are you even collecting graded comics to begin with.  

I'm not. I'm buying it as a present. Or, I'm a seasoned collector paying more at an auction because it has an added plus point which I know will help me financially when I come to sell

9 minutes ago, 90sChild said:

From my point of view, the 'idea' this 'company' has come up is on par with somebody thinking to themselves "This book looks really nice to me and my opinion is really important and other people should know that too".  "I will charge money for this".

Yes. If they are really good at it, some people might come to appreciate it. Also, see first point above.

[Get Marwood & I]

4 minutes ago, MGsimba77 said:

Apparently it had an effect on someone at C-link. I was bidding on a cva certified book (not because it had that seal) but because it had great centering. I had a reserve bid that was far & away above market range. Some dude outbid me by 100 freakin dollars at the very last second. Whomever it was went like 3x above market 

Congrats to them I guess

So there we go - the CVA sticker materially affected the outcome. If it warranted it, why would anyone not want one on their own books when they came to sell them?

[blazingbob]

29 minutes ago, Marwood & I said:

I don't see how that fits with the points I was making Bob. People are saying CVA add no value. I'm saying they do, for the right people, in the same way that CGC do for some people.

How nice will your CGC book be when "monkey fingers" drops it and cracks the case? Or when he refuses to buy it because of Newton rings. Or shaken book syndrome. Or a labeling error. Or because the book is being slowly throttled. 

And who is this Marvood chap? He sounds Asian. 

Look, CGC books are fine. I've owned about 300 in my time. Sold 200 and they undoubtedly made me more by being slabbed, and broke the other 100 out so I could get acquainted with them. Lots of pros for getting a book graded. I just don't like to see CVA derided for identifying an opportunity that CGC should have locked down already.

Besides,  a thread where everyone agrees is a little dull, no?

Sorry,  Marwood and I.

CVA adds no value to a book.

It is a poor attempt at a company trying to make money by saying that this book in their opinion looks nicer then other books in the same grade.  And where are they getting those other books to compare them to?  A database of all the graded copies of the same issue?  Comparing it to other 9.4's that they have as examples?  I can go through my inventory and pull lots of "barely made it grades" and stick the Bobby Storms thinks this is a really nice 9.4 sticker on it.  Does that mean somebody will pay more for my opinion? 

And did the buyer who paid 3x for a book buy it because it had a CVA sticker on it?  Maybe he looks at CVA stickers as being upgrade candidates?  

And all this by looking through 2 layers of plastic.

Edited January 27, 2018 by blazingbob

[Get Marwood & I]

2 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

Sorry,  Marwood and I.

CVA adds no value to a book.

It is a poor attempt at a company trying to make money by saying that this book in their opinion looks nicer then other books in the same grade.  And where are they getting those other books to compare them to?  A database of all the graded copies of the same issue?  Comparing it to other 9.4's that they have as examples?  I can go through my inventory and pull lots of "barely made it grades" and stick the Bobby Storms thinks this is a really nice 9.4 sticker on it.  Does that mean somebody will pay more for my opinion? 

And all this by looking through 2 layers of plastic.

OK Bob,  you've convinced me.  

CVA are rubbish.

[Martin Sinescu]

46 minutes ago, Marwood & I said:

If the concensus is that CVA adds no value because we ourselves are able to determine eye appeal, then why do we a need CGC? Like many others, I don't need CVA to tell me that a book has great eye appeal / superior centering etc.  But I don't need CGC to grade for me either......

Poor CVA. Give them a break. They're not hurting anybody, and all they're doing is providing a service that CGC, for whatever reason, choose not to. 

We're pretty much in agreement here. CGC lacks in a specific (to me, obvious) regard and so there is a companion service to mop up (although clearly CGC has done the heavy lifting and CVA not so much). The mistake folks here are making is assuming that we're all on a level playing field -- we're not. Everyone has different things that they are hyper-sensitive to and other areas where they either don't care or are ignorant. My critical eye has evolved whereas ten or fifteen years ago there's stuff I just flat-out did not see. Both CGC and CVA can assist in this regard, either if you don't know how to grade or if you don't know what qualities make for superior presentation. Mis-cuts, mis-wraps, color fade... these all aren't as immediately noticeable to everyone (or you just never thought to consider it a flaw).

Part of the problem, though, and the reason why I was suggesting it would be more impactful if CGC had this designation in-house, is because CVA is not reviewing every book CGC grades, so two AF 15's both graded 7.5, one with CVA love and one without, doesn't necessarily (and usually doesn't) mean that CVA gave one the nod and the other the boot. How do we know if they've seen one and given it the thumbs down? We don't. So, again, it can add some value to a certain group of people, but I feel it's really too limited overall to be much help.

Also, it seems at odds to be judging presentation when your stamp of approval only detracts from the holder's appearance 

@Marwood & I you'll appreciate that when I read CVA I still think CVE (think "Logopolis")

[MGsimba77]

3 minutes ago, Marwood & I said:

So there we go - the CVA sticker materially affected the outcome. If it warranted it, why would anyone not want one on their own books when they came to sell them?

I wouldn't call it a trend if one sucker gets duped by it. The vast majority of collectors will ignore it. Besides I got an arguably better looking copy same grade on the c-link exchange for a lower price.