Comic Verification Authority (CVA) ?!?!?! 2 2

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

3 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

CVA business model.

It is modeled on CAC.

 

5 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

who had financial backing to put teeth to his assessment. I suspect that CVA is not in a position to be able to "buy back" those books with a CVA sticker that didn't deserve it.

Having total recall of the 2008 events, and the in depth discussion ( which is when I presented the term making a market as a working model) CAC wasn't in a position to do so immediately, either, because the PCGS network Dealers had to first be assembled and on board and understand the sight unseen/sight seen buy back offers. It took abot 2 years of the gnashing and snarling of teeth and the attack dogs being calmed down before the concept value was a bit more clear. The efforts of Ms. Sperber and the attacks on, and calling out,  the coin doctors and displaying the value of  CAC, was a giant leap. PCGS had a few ups and downs about some of their graded pieces, but even that was a good thing, because quality improved. Same with NGC. No 3PG wants to consistently be consistently under question by the collecting community. A mistake here and there? Sure. But overall quality improvements? Leaps and Bounds, and one of the reasons is the 4PG is always there and has become the accepted quality control expert. Like it or not, that is the present market.

[Logan510]

11 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

However, you do not know if microscopic residue is on the book, due to contamination resulting from the cause of the Newton Rings. The closest analogy I can present is AT, because it is a chemical alteration that is difficult to detect, very difficult ins some cases, that over time deteriorates and has a negative eye appeal result. There is an assumption that the rings are a stable issue, yet the cause of the rings is not settled at all, and the quantity clarity of the rings varies quite a bit. Yes, I want a 4pg opinion, considering the 3PG states it is normal and there are alternative reasons for the rings.

4PG - "yep, it's got newton rings"

 

Brilliant!

Glad I shelled out some money for their expert opinion

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

9 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

All other issues aside, I don't think anyone is going to be able to determine if there's damage from the newton rings over time through the inner well and outer case.

Yep. We don't know. Blowing it off, though, is a mistake. A big one. 

[Get Marwood & I]

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

2 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

4PG - "yep, it's got newton rings"

 

Brilliant!

Glad I shelled out some money for their expert opinion

 

2008. CAC comments. Same. 2018. The laughing has left the table.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

It is modeled on CAC.

 

Having total recall of the 2008 events, and the in depth discussion ( which is when I presented the term making a market as a working model) CAC wasn't in a position to do so immediately, either, because the PCGS network Dealers had to first be assembled and on board and understand the sight unseen/sight seen buy back offers. It took abot 2 years of the gnashing and snarling of teeth and the attack dogs being calmed down before the concept value was a bit more clear. The efforts of Ms. Sperber and the attacks on, and calling out,  the coin doctors and displaying the value of  CAC, was a giant leap. PCGS had a few ups and downs about some of their graded pieces, but even that was a good thing, because quality improved. Same with NGC. No 3PG wants to consistently be consistently under question by the collecting community. A mistake here and there? Sure. But overall quality improvements? Leaps and Bounds, and one of the reasons is the 4PG is always there and has become the accepted quality control expert. Like it or not, that is the present market.

That's not what John says, but you know how that goes.

But, negative opinions to the contrary, the presence of a third party assessing another third party is self-evidently beneficial, depending on the quality and ability of the people at CVA. Just the mere presence of such an entity keeps other third parties on their toes, to the degree that the additional third party is accepted by the buying public.

Artificial toning is a blight, for sure.

There are, sadly, attack dogs and naysayers for everything. Sometimes the attack dogs work for you...sometimes they eat you.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

2 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

That's not what John says, but you know how that goes.

 

4 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

is self-evidently beneficial, depending on the quality and ability of the people at CVA. Just the mere presence of such an entity keeps other third parties on their toes, 

That is  exact working hypothesis, and hidden benefit to the overall community, wheter the 4PG is used or not.

6 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Artificial toning is a blight, for sure.

And is the equivalent as rampant in comic collecting? I have assumed so for the last few years, based on reading posts here.

2 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

the presence of a third party assessing another third party

To be more precise, a 4PG assessing a 3PG (also the working definition I used).

[Logan510]

If someone paints my house, I don't hire someone else to tell me they did a good job. I can look at the house and tell that myself 

It's a free country, if other people want to waste their money foolishly that's none of my business 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

1 minute ago, Logan510 said:

If someone paints my house, I don't hire someone else to tell me they did a good job. I can look at the house and tell that myself 

It's a free country, if other people want to waste their money foolishly that's none of my business 

2008. CAC comments. Same. 2018. The  has left the table.

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

13 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Artificial toning is a blight, for sure.

And is the equivalent as rampant in comic collecting? I have assumed so for the last few years, based on reading posts here.

Hard to come up with an exact analogy, since natural toning doesn't have an analog in comics.

6 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

To be more precise, a 4PG assessing a 3PG (also the working definition I used).

Quibble: there's no such thing as a "fourth party." There are only three parties in the entire universe:

First party: you

Second party: other person in the transaction

Third party: literally everyone else that exists.

I understand your usage...but I don't support it.

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

1 minute ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Hard to come up with an exact analogy, since natural toning doesn't have an analog in comics.

Quibble: there's no such thing as a "fourth party." There are only three parties in the entire universe:

First party: you

Second party: other person in the transaction

Third party: literally everyone else that exists.

I understand your usage...but I don't support it.

 

4th Party: the economic gods......that control everyone else that exists..

[comicdonna]

The green bean!  

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

2008. CAC comments. Same. 2018. The  has left the table.

What he doesn't realize is that CVA doesn't exist to make the customer happy...but to convince prospective buyers.

So, using his house analogy, if he hires a painter, no, he doesn't need someone else to tell him if he's satisfied...but if he's planning on selling the house, the buyer, if they're wise, will insist on an independent inspection.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Just now, comicdonna said:

The green bean!  

Yes.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

Just now, RockMyAmadeus said:

@Ditch Fahrenheit

You have any information on the potential for damage through the inner well by newton rings...?

Yes.  Newton rings are a well-known optical effect in both physics and the comic book grading industry.  There is NO potential for damage, they are simply unsightly (to say the least) and shouldn't exist if the case is designed correctly.  They CAN however be used to identify other problems, such as too much pressure, or non-uniform pressure affecting the comic book inside the slab.

And yes, a thin film layer of contamination from the out-gassing of the materials used in the construction of the case could THEORETICALLY cause newton rings under the right circumstances, but there is no current or historical information to back up such a claim.  Additionally, we can disprove such a claim through simple experimentation, as was done below.  Newton rings seen on CGC cases are caused by contact and pressure between the (outer surface) of the inner well/sleeve and the (inner surface) of the outer case.  This is a well-known effect with well-known causes in the comic book grading industry, backed up by years of data from multiple grading companies.

What Causes Newton Rings - A Simple Explanation

[RockMyAmadeus]

Well, there you go. I knew newton rings had no potential for damage, but I didn't want to speak out of class, since plastics is not my area.  

"When has that ever stopped you before, huh??"

[mattn792]

17 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

What he doesn't realize is that CVA doesn't exist to make the customer happy...but to convince prospective buyers.

So, using his house analogy, if he hires a painter, no, he doesn't need someone else to tell him if he's satisfied...but if he's planning on selling the house, the buyer, if they're wise, will insist on an independent inspection.

An independent home inspector is making sure you didn't paint your house with lead or radium, they're not telling you that the blue paint is indeed blue.

And if we want to work CVA into your analogy, then the IVA would need to show up to inspect the inspection.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

Just now, RockMyAmadeus said:

Well, there you go. I knew newton rings had no potential for damage, but I didn't want to speak out of class, since plastics is not my area.  

"When has that ever stopped you before, huh??"

 

 

[comicdonna]

2 minutes ago, Ditch Fahrenheit said:

Yes.  Newton rings are a well-known optical effect in both physics and the comic book grading industry.  There is NO potential for damage, they are simply unsightly (to say the least) and shouldn't exist if the case is designed correctly.  They CAN however be used to identify other problems, such as too much pressure, or non-uniform pressure affecting the comic book inside the slab.

 

I picked up my Batman 181 which is in a new holder.  Instead of grabbing it at the edges, I had my thumb on the front, in the center of the book, and remaining fingers on the back.  The pressure from my thumb caused newton rings to appear in the center of the book..  They went away when I set the book down.  

[RockMyAmadeus]

6 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

An independent home inspector is making sure you didn't paint your house with lead or radium, they're not telling you that the blue paint is indeed blue.

And if we want to work CVA into your analogy, then the IVA would need to show up to inspect the inspection.

There you are! I was hoping my last post didn't scare you off.

No one said it was a perfect analogy...and neither is yours. Of course, neither was his in the first place, CGC isn't painting (or doing anything else) to the comic. They're simply assessing its condition.

Last time I checked, you don't hire a painter to tell you what condition the house is in. Flawed analogies abound.

Edited August 28, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus