Comic Verification Authority (CVA) ?!?!?! 2 2

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

1 minute ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

In some cases, it's almost like they're just copying and pasting the arguments from 2008, that's how spot on the naysaying is...

I had the uncanny same thought at close to the same time as you.

The naysayers of 2008 at least had a lack of precedence to (not) point to....

[mattn792]

1 minute ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

For your pleasure.

I see some glaring flaws in the hypothetical (Copy and pasting the hypothetical is easier):

Setting aside my blatantly obvious words, I do have a question. Hypothetical (maybe not), concerning the existence of a 4PG, and the possible value to a comics collecting community.

You have an encapsulated comic. A 3PG grades it a 9. It has Newton Rings. You send it back. It is encapsulated again, with the same grade...a 9. It has the Newton Rings.  The 3PG states it is normal. You send it to a 4PG.

-- I can see Newton Rings myself, a 4PG does nothing for me in that regard.  In addition, the only time I've ever gotten bent out of shape about Newtons was with the new case fiasco before the well was re-added.

The 4PG does not sticker it with a "green", which would be agreement with the stated grade.

-- By CVA's own mission statement, they admit they aren't assessing the grade:  "Two comic books in the exact same CGC or CBCS grade can exhibit different eye appeal.  That does NOT mean one book is accurately graded, and one is not."  Their sticker means nothing as far as accuracy of the assigned grade.

You call the 4PG to discuss it (the existing "coin" 4PG  will do so), and the 4PG explains to you there is a possible contamination issue, ... 

-- Ditch has already pointed out that contamination, while theoretically possible, has never occurred to anyone's knowledge. 

.. because of newton rings, and eye appeal is significantly reduced because of the Newton Rings. What would you do?

-- The last time this happened, someone started the new case thread, and CGC ultimately re-added the inner well.  Maybe I'm oblivious to it, but since that time I rarely hear anything about Newton rings being an issue.  It certainly hasn't been a problem in my small little corner of the collecting world.  Hypothetically, were they start to appearing en masse again, I would expect a similar outcry from the customer base.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

5 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The naysayers of 2008 at least had a lack of precedence to (not) point to....

That is true. History.....

[Get Marwood & I]

7 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

Maybe I'm oblivious to it, but since that time I rarely hear anything about Newton rings being an issue.  It certainly hasn't been a problem in my small little corner of the collecting world.  Hypothetically, were they start to appearing en masse again, I would expect a similar outcry from the customer base.

 

[mattn792]

2 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

 

 

OK cool, still hasn't been an issue for me in a while.  Hopefully it stays that way, and glad you guys are trying to be proactive.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

2 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

I see some glaring flaws in the hypothetical (Copy and pasting the hypothetical is easier):

Setting aside my blatantly obvious words, I do have a question. Hypothetical (maybe not), concerning the existence of a 4PG, and the possible value to a comics collecting community.

You have an encapsulated comic. A 3PG grades it a 9. It has Newton Rings. You send it back. It is encapsulated again, with the same grade...a 9. It has the Newton Rings.  The 3PG states it is normal. You send it to a 4PG.

-- I can see Newton Rings myself, a 4PG does nothing for me in that regard.  In addition, the only time I've ever gotten bent out of shape about Newtons was with the new case fiasco before the well was re-added.

The 4PG does not sticker it with a "green", which would be agreement with the stated grade.

-- By CVA's own mission statement, they admit they aren't assessing the grade:  "Two comic books in the exact same CGC or CBCS grade can exhibit different eye appeal.  That does NOT mean one book is accurately graded, and one is not."  Their sticker means nothing as far as accuracy of the assigned grade.

You call the 4PG to discuss it (the existing "coin" 4PG  will do so), and the 4PG explains to you there is a possible contamination issue, ... 

-- Ditch has already pointed out that contamination, while theoretically possible, has never occurred to anyone's knowledge. 

.. because of newton rings, and eye appeal is significantly reduced because of the Newton Rings. What would you do?

-- The last time this happened, someone started the new case thread, and CGC ultimately re-added the inner well.  Maybe I'm oblivious to it, but since that time I rarely hear anything about Newton rings being an issue.  It certainly hasn't been a problem in my small little corner of the collecting world.  Hypothetically, were they start to appearing en masse again, I would expect a similar outcry from the customer base.

Hypothetical are not glaring flaws. It is a hypothetical.

The aspect of contamination was not mentioned at all by Mr. Fahrenheit, until after the Hypo, and my mentioning the subject on 8 occasions. To his credit, he has acknowledged same. The last time this happened, no other considerations as to cause were discussed. Do you think such visible anomalies just happen, without a chemical reaction...or physical reaction..... or contamination action? press 2 pieces of plastic together and wham we have rings. Did you think about testing why?

If the Newton Rings became an issue on a very valuable comic you own, to the point of physical deterioration of the comic and visible reduction in eye appeal...superior or not, and you discover it was a gassing effect/sonic weld fail/moisture contamination, etc. are you going to state that you were told it was natural and in your world it isn't an issue? 

I do not think you are addressing the hypothetical in the spirit and manner intended. The idea is not winning, it is exploring the aspects. The idea is not...well, that never happened in my world.  It is what if it happens in your world.

[sfcityduck]

17 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

 

If there's a 9.6 copy with a CVA sticker...provided I know that CVA knows what they're doing...I'm absolutely paying a premium for that book as a 9.6, because there's a good chance I can make it a 9.8. A much better chance than flying blind (and I have plenty of slabs that I discovered weren't remotely upgradeable when received in hand.)

 

Interesting.  My knee jerk reaction is to think the opposite.  If the book has more eye appeal than the grade, I would assume it has already been pressed.  

But, since we don't know the criteria, who can say?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

1 minute ago, sfcityduck said:

Interesting.  My knee jerk reaction is to think the opposite.  If the book has more eye appeal than the grade, I would assume it has already been pressed.  

But, since we don't know the criteria, who can say?

The Market. And the market has certainly said something in the historical Model we can examine known as CAC.

[mattn792]

8 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

Hypothetical are not glaring flaws. It is a hypothetical.

The aspect of contamination was not mentioned at all by Mr. Fahrenheit, until after the Hypo, and my mentioning the subject on 8 occasions. To his credit, he has acknowledged same. The last time this happened, no other considerations as to cause were discussed. Do you think such visible anomalies just happen, without a chemical reaction...or physical reaction..... or contamination action? press 2 pieces of plastic together and wham we have rings. Did you think about testing why?

If the Newton Rings became an issue on a very valuable comic you own, to the point of physical deterioration of the comic and visible reduction in eye appeal...superior or not, and you discover it was a gassing effect/sonic weld fail/moisture contamination, etc. are you going to state that you were told it was natural and in your world it isn't an issue? 

I do not think you are addressing the hypothetical in the spirit and manner intended. The idea is not winning, it is exploring the aspects. The idea is not...well, that never happened in my world.  It is what if it happens in your world.

I would disagree that this -- "The 4PG does not sticker it with a "green", which would be agreement with the stated grade." -- is not a glaring flaw because you're re-writing CVA's entire purpose.  Let's be frank, if they were trying to say they agree with the grade just by looking through the holder at the front and back cover, their service would be utterly worthless and they'd be out of business in 20 minutes.

That aside, if we're operating under the hypothetical assumption that Newton rings are physically damaging to a book -- my book(s) would no longer be in the offending holder, and the grading company would get no more business from me until that fatal flaw was corrected.  But again, I fail to see where a 4th party helps me in that regard.  I can see the Newton rings.  Under our hypothetical, with a little research, I'd be able to find out about the physical deteriorating effects that Newton rings have on a book, probably on this very forum.

Edited August 28, 2018 by mattn792
wordage

[sfcityduck]

 

Quote

 

Posted 4 minutes ago

   7 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Interesting.  My knee jerk reaction is to think the opposite.  If the book has more eye appeal than the grade, I would assume it has already been pressed.  

But, since we don't know the criteria, who can say?

The Market. And the market has certainly said something in the historical Model we can examine known as CAC.

 

The coin market can teach us about pressing?  

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

34 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

I would disagree that this -- "The 4PG does not sticker it with a "green", which would be agreement with the stated grade." -- is not a glaring flaw because you're re-writing CVA's entire purpose

That is incorrect. Read the statement on the website. Try to get your mind off the color-green. it is not the point. That is a color that CAC uses, BTW.

 

36 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

Let's be frank, if they were trying to say they agree with the grade just by looking through the holder at the front and back cover, their service would be utterly worthless and they'd be out of business in 20 minutes.

 We have 10 years of a Model to explore...CAC. That is exactly what is done. 10 years in the Market is not failing in 20 minutes.

 

39 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

But again, I fail to see where a 4th party helps me in that regard.  I can see the Newton rings.  Under our hypothetical, with a little research, I'd be able to find out about the physical deteriorating effects that Newton rings have on a book, probably on this very forum.

Nothing wrong with that. I doubt you would be able to find out on this very forum. There is no testing Model yet. I think you are maybe concentrating on the encapsulation, and not the reasons for the rings that could lead to the deterioration/contamination. The 4PG may have a criteria for determining this, or may not. The 3PG may already know, or maybe not. That is the issue. The present situation is: They are natural. There is nothing we can do about it. However, there are reasons for the Rings and a number of those reasons are a possible and potential negative effect on the comic. Rings just don't magically appear and poof, don't press them and hold the holder in a different angle and everything is fine. That is not an answer, much less a plausible solution that assures the collecting community. 

[mattn792]

Speaking of new case issues, I just happened across this poor soul on eBay while trying to use today's 15% off...

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

43 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

 

The coin market can teach us about pressing?  

 

 

Don't be silly. But, since you ask, yes. Errors/counterfeits/wrong planchets/improper thickness that does not support the PM composition of the piece, and double dies vs. mechanical doubling,  calsh marks, all a result of "pressing".....squeezing the planchet between the dies, if you will.

[NoMan]

4 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

There are a lot of people who complain about people "trying to pass their opinion off as fact" and "so and so thinks they're always right!", but who then make blanket statements themselves like "CGC could put them out of business overnight!", without a stitch of understanding as to why that's probably not true, and how the far, far more powerful and wealthy PCGS and NGC tried to do that with CAC...

...and failed.

The question is still open. It may work. It may not. 

But history tells us it has before, and whither coins go, comics have followed so far.

do/did you watch The Coin Vault on whatever tv shopping channel it/was on? It's usually on some UHF station way up on the dial. Real low budget. Like shot in someone's basement low budget. I don't collect coins but I could watch that show for hours and hours. I loved it. And when the two hosts stop screaming and spinning round and round they would take live on air callers. That was the best!   I tried to call on numerous occasions and could never get past the screeners. 

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by NoMan

[sfcityduck]

3 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

Don't be silly. But, since you ask, yes. Errors/counterfeits/wrong planchets/improper thickness that does not support the PM composition of the piece, and double dies vs. mechanical doubling,  calsh marks, all a result of "pressing".....squeezing the planchet between the dies, if you will.

... or you could admit you missed the point of my comment.  You are trying too hard to not be "wrong."

Edited August 28, 2018 by sfcityduck

[mattn792]

13 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

That is incorrect. Read the statement on the website. Try to get your mind off the color-green. it is not the point. That is a color that CAC uses, BTW.

-- It isn't the color green that I'm hung up on, its the fact that you're saying CVA's version of the "green sticker" would be attesting to their agreement with the stated grade.  By their own mission statement as posted earlier, that is exactly what they are NOT doing.  They're (supposedly) assessing superior eye appeal, which my overall point has been I can easily accomplish on my own, rendering their service worthless to me.

Quote

 We have 10 years of a Model to explore...CAC. That is exactly what is done. 10 years in the Market is not failing in 20 minutes.

This goes back to my point above, CVA has explicitly stated that they are not saying one book is graded accurate and one isn't.  They're attesting to eye appeal.  Coins -- sure, you can probably do a "grade assessment" through the case.  But that is because they are the sum of their two sides, no internal nothing that needs to be looked at. 

Let's say CVA gets a 6.0 Qualified book, that is noted as missing pages 7 and 9.  How are they supposed to attest to the accuracy of that grade?  Did they open the holder and verify that the pages are missing?  I would hope not.  Married wraps?  Good luck figuring that out solely through a cursory examination through the case.  Or a restored book.  How do they know all the restoration notes are accurate?  If page tears were fixed, how can they verify that? 

Edited August 28, 2018 by mattn792
Proofread

[NoMan]

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I'm not a plastics expert (and I think this has been discussed at great length by those who are), so I can't speak to the effect the direct contact between the inner well and the outer case (the cause of the rings) has, but they're all third parties. 

As far as the "making the market" goes, I'm not familiar with the CVA business model. CAC was founded by the aforementioned John Albanese, the founder of NGC, who had financial backing to put teeth to his assessment. I suspect that CVA is not in a position to be able to "buy back" those books with a CVA sticker that didn't deserve it.

But I don't know. Got any info on that?

I don't always follow along as well as others because I fell on a wheelbarrow when I was a kid and hit my head. Hard. But.....

Why would CVA buy back books that CVA gave a sticker to in the first place?

[NoMan]

2 hours ago, Logan510 said:

If someone paints my house, I don't hire someone else to tell me they did a good job. I can look at the house and tell that myself 

It's a free country, if other people want to waste their money foolishly that's none of my business 

but you are right there in person, looking at your house and the job the painter did.

What if all you could do is see a picture of your newly painted house over the internet? For the moment, I don't much care for the CVA sticker but those who do have a very valid point re: buying something not seen in person. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 minutes ago, NoMan said:

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I'm not a plastics expert (and I think this has been discussed at great length by those who are), so I can't speak to the effect the direct contact between the inner well and the outer case (the cause of the rings) has, but they're all third parties. 

As far as the "making the market" goes, I'm not familiar with the CVA business model. CAC was founded by the aforementioned John Albanese, the founder of NGC, who had financial backing to put teeth to his assessment. I suspect that CVA is not in a position to be able to "buy back" those books with a CVA sticker that didn't deserve it.

But I don't know. Got any info on that?

I don't always follow along as well as others because I fell on a wheelbarrow when I was a kid and hit my head. Hard. But.....

Why would CVA buy back books that CVA gave a sticker to in the first place?

From John Albanese, founder of CAC:

Quote

 

MR: Just what goes into your decision to label a coin submitted to CAC?

JA: It all depends on the series. CAC has capital commitments of $25 million, 51% of which is my contribution. Essentially, if we put our sticker on the holder it means we’re happy buyers of the coin that grade. That might not sound too technical but we’re willing to put our money where our opinion is. Other dealers will be coming on board as well. We think it will prove out when our trading platform is an operation. While we can’t be expected to make markets in every coin in every grade, we believe that CAC markets will be deeper than any other market.

MR: How can you hold the line on your grading such that your interpretations won’t change over time, as has happened for the grading services.

JA: Let’s say that we do a poor job. If we do than we have to buy our own coins back and we wouldn’t last very long. We could have $25 million of low-end unsalable inventory and be out of business. So it’s in CAC’s best interest to maintain the standard because we are consuming our own product. It’s like owning a restaurant where we eat every meal, so we’re not going to be serving poor quality food. Or it’s like a prospective home buying desiring to buy a “builder’s home.” Why is that? – because he built it for himself. In effect, we’re grading for ourselves.

 

(MR is the interviewer)

(Full interview can be found here:)

https://www.caccoin.com/cac-in-the-news/an-interview-with-john-albanese-by-maurice-rosen/

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

41 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

... or you could admit you missed the point of my comment.  You are trying too hard to not be "wrong."

OK.