The Last DC Newsstand Issues 2 2

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, lighthouse said:

I suspect there are some people collecting them specifically because collecting them is a challenge.

 I know there are, and Kirk is a prime example.

There is nothing wrong with collecting Newsstands (or anything else, for that matter), but there is something wrong with spreading misinformation and people chasing something just because some insufficiently_thoughtful_person told them it was super-ultra-mega-rare, when it's really not.

[RockMyAmadeus]

The reason newsstand comics are hard to find is simple: they were sold to individuals, who bought a single copy, and any and all that were unsold were "returned for credit"...however that mechanism evolved before the end...which means that those single copes, if they were saved, don't filter onto the secondary market the way that Direct copies do.

We don't know how many were made. We don't know how many were sold. We don't know how many were returned. We don't know how many still exist. 

BUT...just by virtue of the way we know they were distributed into the hands of buyers...we DO know that the market is going to see these books in single examples, one at a time, until and unless people who have gathered them over time sell them in lots.

It's just like the DCU books...they're not hard to find, but they are not found in "clumps", because of the way they were distributed: individual copies inn individual collector packs.

[darkstar]

17 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

 

It was known just as much then as it is now, in vague, general terms with no hard numbers.

 

No, most comic book buyers post 2000 did not know how poor newsstand sales were compared to direct and that they were eventually going to be discontinued. Or that they were even discontinued when and after it actually happened.

[darkstar]

17 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

You would never win that bet, because you will never be able to prove it.

No but I can use common sense and the market depth of newsstand vs direct agrees with it. Between direction edition account holders and newsstand account holders who do you think has a larger financial interest in the comics they are buying, both in the short and long term? Between direct edition consumers and newsstand consumers who do you think collectively cares more about condition at initial point of sale and maintaining that condition level over a period of time? Between direct edition account holders and their customers and newsstand account holders and their customers who do you think makes more of an effort to properly display and store their comics both during the initial point of sale and after? Who do you think cares more if the books he gets on Tuesdays are trashed, the owner of the independent comic store or the part-time merchandiser stocking the shelves at Barnes and Noble? 

[Cpt Kirk]

8 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

 I know there are, and Kirk is a prime example.

There is nothing wrong with collecting Newsstands (or anything else, for that matter), but there is something wrong with spreading misinformation and people chasing something just because some insufficiently_thoughtful_person told them it was super-ultra-mega-rare, when it's really not.

I am a prime example of an obsessive/compulsive collector  (LOL).   For me, it was more of an academic pursuit.  In other words, I wanted to know if they really did create a newsstand issue for every single corresponding direct sales issue (from the time they started making direct sales).   And for the major titles in DC comics the answer was yes up until they stopped making newsstand issues after issues that were cover dated Oct 2017.    For for second printings, the number that went to newsstand format was few and far between.   It is also interesting that some of the newsstand bar codes were produced with errors in them, and the publisher (or someone else) used stickers to fix those errors.

And trust me when I say that I was not collecting those newsstand issues with the hopes of speculative gain or investment in mind.  I would be very surprised if anyone were ever willing to pay me more than $3 per newsstand issue on average for the whole runs of Batman, Superman, Detective, and Action newsstand issues, whereas the purchase/postage/travel costs/etc to find them all is probably in the $5 or more range per comic book.    Some could be found laying around the cheap boxes for one buck, whereas others required going to friends in Venezuela or Germany to find them (or occasionally breaking down and paying dealers as much as $50 per issue... I hate to admit it).   .

Edited November 27, 2018 by Cpt Kirk

[Cpt Kirk]

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The reason newsstand comics are hard to find is simple: they were sold to individuals, who bought a single copy, and any and all that were unsold were "returned for credit"...however that mechanism evolved before the end...which means that those single copes, if they were saved, don't filter onto the secondary market the way that Direct copies do.

We don't know how many were made. We don't know how many were sold. We don't know how many were returned. We don't know how many still exist. 

BUT...just by virtue of the way we know they were distributed into the hands of buyers...we DO know that the market is going to see these books in single examples, one at a time, until and unless people who have gathered them over time sell them in lots.

It's just like the DCU books...they're not hard to find, but they are not found in "clumps", because of the way they were distributed: individual copies inn individual collector packs.

Rock -- I think you hit the nail on the head with your post above.   This I can say after tracking down approximately 2,500 newsstand issues in the titles I collect.

[RockMyAmadeus]

15 minutes ago, Cpt Kirk said:

I am a prime example of an obsessive/compulsive collector  (LOL).   For me, it was more of an academic pursuit.  In other words, I wanted to know if they really did create a newsstand issue for every single corresponding direct sales issue (from the time they started making direct sales).   And the answer was yes up until recently.  For for second printings, the number that went to newsstand format was few and far between.   It is also interesting that some of the newsstand bar codes were produced with errors in them, and the publisher (or someone else) used stickers to fix those errors.

And trust me when I say that I was not collecting those newsstand issues with the hopes of speculative gain or investment in mind.  I would be very surprised if anyone were ever willing to pay me more than $3 per newsstand issue on average for the whole runs of Batman, Superman, Detective, and Action newsstand issues, whereas the purchase/postage/travel costs/etc to find them all is probably in the $5 or more range per comic book.    Some could be found laying around the cheap boxes for one buck, whereas others required going to friends in Venezuela or Germany to find them (or occasionally breaking down and paying dealers as much as $50 per issue... I hate to admit it).   .

Your effort in that regard, without blowing smoke up your bunghole, is tremendous, and one that will perhaps bear much fruit in the coming years. I wish you'd bought EVERYTHING, but....

It cannot be understated the massive amount of data value that your (and Jerome's) efforts contain. To that, I give you a hearty "thank you!"

[Cpt Kirk]

13 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Your effort in that regard, without blowing smoke up your bunghole, is tremendous, and one that will perhaps bear much fruit in the coming years. I wish you'd bought EVERYTHING, but....

It cannot be understated the massive amount of data value that your (and Jerome's) efforts contain. To that, I give you a hearty "thank you!"

Thanks Rock.   Coming from you, that means a lot... and makes the effort feel very worthwhile.   I'm always happy to share that data with anyone who wants it.    Of course, I must pay homage to Jerome... I've met him in person, seen his collection, and I can say for sure that he put in way more effort than I will ever be able to muster.

[bababooey]

4 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The reason newsstand comics are hard to find is simple: they were sold to individuals, who bought a single copy, and any and all that were unsold were "returned for credit"...however that mechanism evolved before the end...which means that those single copes, if they were saved, don't filter onto the secondary market the way that Direct copies do.

We don't know how many were made. We don't know how many were sold. We don't know how many were returned. We don't know how many still exist. 

BUT...just by virtue of the way we know they were distributed into the hands of buyers...we DO know that the market is going to see these books in single examples, one at a time, until and unless people who have gathered them over time sell them in lots.

It's just like the DCU books...they're not hard to find, but they are not found in "clumps", because of the way they were distributed: individual copies inn individual collector packs.

It's not perfect but the SOO's address two of your first three "We don't knows..." to a limited extent & the comichron site has estimated sales via direct.

Total printed?  Yup.  Estimated NA sales via direct?  Yup.  Total returns?  Yup. 

So I can look at ASM and for the ASM SOO LINK year 2011 the average NA sales were in the 60K range which I can round up to at least 65/66K for worldwide plus the #666 bump, then add another 5600 subscription copies (direct versions) - so if I take that 70 K or so direct copies and subtract it from the total avg. print run of 80K I'm in the ballpark assuming 10K were newsstand copies and pretty good percentage of those were returned in 2011. (est. 15% sell through)

So I would personally estimate around 1500 to 2000 copies were safely sold to end users via the newsstand but it's not too difficult to see that the number could easily be less or could double since an insignificant adjustment to the direct estimates could greatly skew the newsstand numbers.  I really don't have anything to gain from this since I only have one ASM newsstand issue later than the Deadpool appearance in 611 and it's just a beater copy of one in the 670's.

So rather than dismissing everything by saying no one knows, don't dismiss the industry data that is available and do your own math   All the points you've made about why newsstand copies are less likely to re-enter the marketplace are valid but when you combine those findings with whatever conclusions you arrive at by working these numbers maybe you can share your opinions/conclusions here.   

Ultimately the industry data is a lot of BS estimates (% of Batman sales extrapolated against residual annual print run averages isn't the sort of thing people should be basing their investment decisions on but if you're not prepared to refute the numbers with anything other than "we don't know", no one is going to listen. )

I'll tag  @Lazyboy so he can do the same.

Comichron ASM sales estimates in spoilers.

Spoiler

Oct11: ASM #672 = 57,860...#28 for the month

Oct11: ASM #671 = 59,426...#25 for the month

Sep11: ASM #670 = 57,599...#27 for the month

Sep11: ASM #669 = 71,944...#18 for the month

Aug11: ASM #668 = 57,533...#09 for the month

Aug11: ASM #667 = 71,235...#06 for the month

Jul11: ASM #666 = 135,568...#01 for the month

Jul11: ASM #665 = 56,948...#16 for the month

Jun11: ASM #664 = 54,808...#10 for the month

Jun11: ASM #663 = 57,040...#07 for the month

May11: ASM #662 = 55,883...#13 for the month

May11: ASM #661 = 59,087...#10 for the month

May11: ASM #660 = 58,249...#11 for the month

Apr11: ASM #659 = 58,258...#15 for the month

Apr11: ASM #658 = 61,687...#10 for the month

Mar11: ASM #657 = 58,704...#17 for the month

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by bababooey

[Cpt Kirk]

1 hour ago, bababooey said:

It's not perfect but the SOO's address two of your first three "We don't knows..." to a limited extent & the comichron site has estimated sales via direct.

Total printed?  Yup.  Estimated NA sales via direct?  Yup.  Total returns?  Yup. 

So I can look at ASM and for the ASM SOO LINK year 2011 the average NA sales were in the 60K range which I can round up to at least 65/66K for worldwide plus the #666 bump, then add another 5600 subscription copies (direct versions) - so if I take that 70 K or so direct copies and subtract it from the total avg. print run of 80K I'm in the ballpark assuming 10K were newsstand copies and pretty good percentage of those were returned in 2011. (est. 15% sell through)

So I would personally estimate around 1500 to 2000 copies were safely sold to end users via the newsstand but it's not too difficult to see that the number could easily be less or could double since an insignificant adjustment to the direct estimates could greatly skew the newsstand numbers.  I really don't have anything to gain from this since I only have one ASM newsstand issue later than the Deadpool appearance in 611 and it's just a beater copy of one in the 670's.

So rather than dismissing everything by saying no one knows, don't dismiss the industry data that is available and do your own math   All the points you've made about why newsstand copies are less likely to re-enter the marketplace are valid but when you combine those findings with whatever conclusions you arrive at by working these numbers maybe you can share your opinions/conclusions here.   

Ultimately the industry data is a lot of BS estimates (% of Batman sales extrapolated against residual annual print run averages isn't the sort of thing people should be basing their investment decisions on but if you're not prepared to refute the numbers with anything other than "we don't know", no one is going to listen. )

I'll tag  @Lazyboy so he can do the same.

Comichron ASM sales estimates in spoilers.

  Reveal hidden contents

Oct11: ASM #672 = 57,860...#28 for the month

Oct11: ASM #671 = 59,426...#25 for the month

Sep11: ASM #670 = 57,599...#27 for the month

Sep11: ASM #669 = 71,944...#18 for the month

Aug11: ASM #668 = 57,533...#09 for the month

Aug11: ASM #667 = 71,235...#06 for the month

Jul11: ASM #666 = 135,568...#01 for the month

Jul11: ASM #665 = 56,948...#16 for the month

Jun11: ASM #664 = 54,808...#10 for the month

Jun11: ASM #663 = 57,040...#07 for the month

May11: ASM #662 = 55,883...#13 for the month

May11: ASM #661 = 59,087...#10 for the month

May11: ASM #660 = 58,249...#11 for the month

Apr11: ASM #659 = 58,258...#15 for the month

Apr11: ASM #658 = 61,687...#10 for the month

Mar11: ASM #657 = 58,704...#17 for the month

 

Comichron is a good source for data on this.   He even had a connection to the company who distributed the newsstand copies.

For whatever it is worth, Barnes and Noble has distribution and sales data.  A clerk at my local store once showed me that they had the data of the number of newsstand copies received at their store for any given issue, as well as the number that actually sold.  The clerk was also able to access data for other stores.  I saw actual data on the Barnes and Noble computer that showed a lot of newsstand issues were never sold.  This correlates well to my own observations of the newsstand rack... I visited the local Barnes and Noble almost weekly from 2012 until they stopped selling newsstand issues in 2017.  During those years, I would see several issues of newsstand comics that would continue to stay on the rack week after week, getting more bent and worn until they were finally removed from the racks.  The person who worked on the newsstand rack knew which ones needed to be removed each week. The only newsstand issues that seemed to sell well were the Batman's.   

Anyway, I'm sure someone at the HQ of Barnes and Noble (which had to be the biggest seller of newsstand issues from 2012 to 2017) would be able to compile all the distribution and sales data from all their stores for at least the last 10 years or so.   So we need someone to get in contact with that person at B&N HQ to get that data while it still exists.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, bababooey said:

It's not perfect but the SOO's address two of your first three "We don't knows..." to a limited extent & the comichron site has estimated sales via direct.

Obviously, as we have all discussed at great length over many years here. 

Now...please provide me the SOOs for Marvel's titles from 2013. 2011? 2006? 2003...?

Oh, right. They stopped printing them, because they stopped offering mail subscriptions, or they shipped them First Class, so they were no longer required to print them. 

Even Marvel's flagship title, ASM, has gaps, and data that is bizarre and irreconcilable. Did you run the numbers? Did you add up ALL the sales data for the year from Comichron for all issues published with a 2011 cover date, so you could come up with an average number of copies sold per month through Diamond? The issue numbers are #648-#672, if you're interested in doing the hard work.

And....this is an interesting question: which version were subscribers sent...?

So, what are the numbers for DC's flagship characters, Batman and Superman? No clue. DC stopped shipping subs Second Class after 1987, and there are no SOOs past then for ANY DC title.

2 hours ago, bababooey said:

So rather than dismissing everything by saying no one knows, don't dismiss the industry data that is available and do your own math

Yes, WHERE AVAILABLE, you can come up with estimates. WHERE AVAILABLE.

Let me repeat that, since it's critical to understanding the issue: WHERE AVAILABLE. 

DC past 1987? NOT AVAILABLE. Let me repeat that: for every single issue of every single DC comic book printed in 1988 to the present, we have NO INFORMATION about how many were printed, sold, returned, or exist. Not a single book. Right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

MOST of Marvel past the 90s? NOT AVAILABLE.

Don't argue exceptions as if they are the rule. That's bad scholarship.

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 hours ago, darkstar said:

No but I can use common sense and the market depth of newsstand vs direct agrees with it.

No, it doesn't. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, bababooey said:

So I would personally estimate around 1500 to 2000 copies were safely sold to end users via the newsstand

I want to make sure I have your estimates correct. You're saying that, in 2011, when Barnes & Noble alone operated 705 stores nationwide, and Marvel films were starting to hit a tremendous stride, the flagship title of the company only sold 1500-2000 copies per issue on the newsstand...nationwide? 

How many newsstands were selling comics in 2011? The answer isn't "none." How many Walmarts were selling comics in 2011? The answer isn't "none." How many retail book sellers were selling comics besides B&N in 2011? Again, the answer's not "none."

There are a LOT of problems with the numbers on the SOOs...some of which were printed in Oct, Nov, and Dec COVER dated books, when the year those SOOs were reporting weren't even over yet. 

[divad]

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, Cpt Kirk said:

whereas others required going to friends in Venezuela or Germany to find them

I wonder how and why newsstand copies were ending up in Venezuela or Germany....very interesting...

[Cpt Kirk]

6 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I wonder how and why newsstand copies were ending up in Venezuela or Germany....very interesting...

I noticed that since about the year 2000 (very roughly) a lot of copies ended up in Venezuela with a distribution sticker on top of them.  When my friend was gathering up newsstand issues for me from that era, every single one of them (there were about 10 of them) had the sticker on there.   I will post a photo of that distribution sticker as soon as I can.

[Lazyboy]

19 hours ago, bababooey said:

I'll tag  @Lazyboy so he can do the same.

Pfft. You just stole that (combining sources) from my old posts questioning Chuck's "5% in 2000" numbers and the fools who try to apply it to individual issues.

[bababooey]

47 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Pfft. You just stole that (combining sources) from my old posts questioning Chuck's "5% in 2000" numbers and the fools who try to apply it to individual issues.

It's discussing the same thing I guess but the SOO you were discussing from 1999 shows 77K in avg. returns that you don't acknowledge at all, I assume most returns are unsold units coming back from the newsstand distribution network. 

[Lazyboy]

18 minutes ago, bababooey said:

It's discussing the same thing I guess but the SOO you were discussing from 1999 shows 77K in avg. returns that you don't acknowledge at all, I assume most returns are unsold units coming back from the newsstand distribution network. 

I must be missing your point. There was no reason for me to specifically reference the returns (especially since those numbers had already been posted), even though they would have supported my post. If average Newsstand sales had actually been under 10k at the time like the blob believed, with 77k average returns, I guarantee that Marvel would have immediately ended newsstand distribution.

But remember that they aren't actually returns, but copies reported as unsold that were then supposed to be destroyed. Even if we had the reported sales numbers for specific Newsstand editions, there is no guarantee that is the maximum number of extant copies like it should be.

[darkstar]

18 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

No, it doesn't. 

For the books I'm talking about it definitely does. The number of transactions involving DC or Marvel newsstands from their final years of publishing aren't anywhere close to those involving direct editions, neither are the number of listings.