Census Change with Updated Grades? 0

[jhm]

I'm posing this question to folks here in the GA forum because it tends to only matter to me for GA books....

When a book gets regraded... and "moved up" does the old census count reference get removed?

Does anyone know a way to verify whether a certain cert # was re-purposed?.

There's a nice GA 9.8 (that was sold several years ago in a 9.6 holder) that I have my eye on.

The 9.6 Cert # no longer comes up in the verification tool. It was regraded a 9.8 (at least in its current holder) just a few months ago.

I've come across this scenario too many times while considering five figure purchases... so it felt like it was time to get some advice.

[G.A.tor]

As long as it’s the same book and the old label is turned into Cgc at grading, then the old is removed

ow, Cgc doesn’t know What to remove if old  label is not submitted back to them

[jhm]

11 hours ago, G.A.tor said:

As long as it’s the same book and the old label is turned into Cgc at grading, then the old is removed

ow, Cgc doesn’t know What to remove if old  label is not submitted back to them

Thank you!

[Gotham Kid]

You can also use http://www.cgcdata.com/cgc/totals/ , gives you plenty of info on any particular book in relation to census changes...

Edited February 21, 2018 by Gotham Kid

[Sqeggs]

49 minutes ago, Gotham Kid said:

You can also use http://www.cgcdata.com/cgc/totals/ , gives you plenty of info on any particular book in relation to census changes...

Terrific tool for finding out when a book in a certain grade appeared in the census.

 

[Robot Man]

Wouldn't people hoping for a higher grade keep the old label? I would think it would sway the graders if they knew.

[lou_fine]

1 hour ago, Robot Man said:

Wouldn't people hoping for a higher grade keep the old label? I would think it would sway the graders if they knew.

Well, the graders aren't supposed to know because I assumed the old label would be removed upon receipt as the graders are supposed to grade only the boook that is in front of them at that point in time. 

This would explain in part why books can be regraded differently upon resubmission as it is hard to ensure consistency in grading, especially over extended periods of time when there may have been subtle but obvious changes to their unpublished grading standards. 

[szav]

37 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Well, the graders aren't supposed to know because I assumed the old label would be removed upon receipt as the graders are supposed to grade only the boook that is in front of them at that point in time. 

This would explain in part why books can be regraded differently upon resubmission as it is hard to ensure consistency in grading, especially over extended periods of time when there may have been subtle but obvious changes to their unpublished grading standards. 

I suspect that the majority of people playing the crack, press, and resub game would not be sending in the old labels with their submissions.  

Maybe there’s a few good citizens that do so, but whether Cgc does actually have a blind eye on the regrade a lot of people doing this probably think they don’t, and don’t want to risk revealing the lower grade the book originally had.

Just a guess of course but the census for most books with more than 20 or 30 by now is probably hopelessly confounded.

[Sqeggs]

4 hours ago, Robot Man said:

Wouldn't people hoping for a higher grade keep the old label? I would think it would sway the graders if they knew.

The graders don't see the old label.  The book is removed from the old slab before they see it.  Of course, for, say, a Church copy of an important book, they might well remember what the old grade was.  I think Joey sends in the old label if you ask him to crack a book and press it before submitting it. Perhaps other pressers do as well; CCS, of course, would. 

[AJD]

3 hours ago, Sqeggs said:

The graders don't see the old label.  The book is removed from the old slab before they see it.  Of course, for, say, a Church copy of an important book, they might well remember what the old grade was.  I think Joey sends in the old label if you ask him to crack a book and press it before submitting it. Perhaps other pressers do as well; CCS, of course, would. 

That raises the question as to whether pedigree books are routinely removed from the census when regraded? For non-ped books it depends on whether the label was sent back, but for peds?

[Sqeggs]

16 minutes ago, AJD said:

That raises the question as to whether pedigree books are routinely removed from the census when regraded? For non-ped books it depends on whether the label was sent back, but for peds?

Interesting point that never occurred to me before.  One possible check would be to locate instances on GPA where a ped copy has sold twice at different grades and see if the links to both cert numbers are active. 

[szav]

9 minutes ago, Sqeggs said:

Interesting point that never occurred to me before.  One possible check would be to locate instances on GPA where a ped copy has sold twice at different grades and see if the links to both cert numbers are active. 

https://www.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=790+231&Nty=1&Ntt=Tough+kid+squad+1+denver&ic10=ArchiveTab-071515

the restored 9.2 shows up in census and on verification.  So yeah the census is a mess.

Edited February 22, 2018 by szavisca

[path4play]

1 hour ago, Sqeggs said:

Interesting point that never occurred to me before.  One possible check would be to locate instances on GPA where a ped copy has sold twice at different grades and see if the links to both cert numbers are active. 

I can verify that my Police Comics No. 31 Okajima was originally a 8.5 then re-submitted (and presumably pressed) for a 9.2.

Neither the cert # at 8.5 on GPA verifies, nor does a 8.5 currently show on the census (but there is 1 9.2 sitting pretty right at the top)

 

 

[Knightsofold]

7 hours ago, szavisca said:

I suspect that the majority of people playing the crack, press, and resub game would not be sending in the old labels with their submissions.  

Maybe there’s a few good citizens that do so, but whether Cgc does actually have a blind eye on the regrade a lot of people doing this probably think they don’t, and don’t want to risk revealing the lower grade the book originally had.

Just a guess of course but the census for most books with more than 20 or 30 by now is probably hopelessly confounded.

They will send in the label at a later time if it helps their newly graded book.

[szav]

1 minute ago, Knightsofold said:

They will send in the label at a later time if it helps their newly graded book.

That makes sense I guess... it makes your newly graded book effectively more scarce by having them remove the old entry from the census after the fact.

[Knightsofold]

Plus they'd keep the old label to sell with the cracked out book if the new grade is worse.

[jhm]

And bouncing between grading services is really making it tough to assign values... further skewing census info.

What was a CGC 7.5
https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/amazing-mystery-funnies-23-centaur-1940-cgc-vf-75-off-white-to-white-pages/a/7166-91016.s

Is now a 9.0 (but still represented as a 7.5)
https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/amazing-mystery-funnies-23-centaur-1940-cbcs-vf-nm-90-off-white-to-white-pages/a/7177-91047.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

On a positive note - it speaks to the rarity of the gems we collect. Picture hunting is getting more important.

[Sqeggs]

5 hours ago, jhm said:

And bouncing between grading services is really making it tough to assign values... further skewing census info.

What was a CGC 7.5
https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/amazing-mystery-funnies-23-centaur-1940-cgc-vf-75-off-white-to-white-pages/a/7166-91016.s

Is now a 9.0 (but still represented as a 7.5)
https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/amazing-mystery-funnies-23-centaur-1940-cbcs-vf-nm-90-off-white-to-white-pages/a/7177-91047.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

On a positive note - it speaks to the rarity of the gems we collect. Picture hunting is getting more important.

Did the other guys ever come up with a census? I know they had been promising one for a dog's age.

[Sqeggs]

17 hours ago, szavisca said:

https://www.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=790+231&Nty=1&Ntt=Tough+kid+squad+1+denver&ic10=ArchiveTab-071515

the restored 9.2 shows up in census and on verification.  So yeah the census is a mess.

There are a lot of things on the census that could be cleared up and that's one of them -- obvious duplication.  There are other instances where by searching for a book you find that the same series is in the census twice with slightly variant spellings or they've split the Timely/Marvel/Atlas books inconsistently or a book has the wrong date which knocks it out of sequence or ... many other things!

The census is important enough that CGC should be taking steps to collect the errors and then fix them.  A thread on the Ask CGC page would bring in a ton of suggestions, I'm sure.