What's up with Rob Liefeld? No CGC? 4 4

[kevhtx]

So no more CGC for Liefeld sigs? If so, he should update his website. 

 

[ivdyer]

16 minutes ago, kevhtx said:

So no more CGC for Liefeld sigs? If so, he should update his website. 

 

I asked the same thing via IG and Twitter to him directly with no reply......something must have happened.  

[bleh]

i'm curious to know as well.  maybe it's a publicity stunt?  maybe a money ploy, but that doesnt make sense if you cut 1 source of revenue.  anyone know?

[RadiantGraphix]

I’m wondering if this has anything to do with the Stan Lee/Max/Anastasia’s/Excelsior situation right now?  Or is this another situation where a fan screwed it up for the rest of us?  ... with Rob it seems to come down to getting paid for every little thing he does. I bet he wanted a kickback from each submitted slab (despite already charging for graded signatures) and CGC said no.  It sounds like EGO, and not like “business” as he claims it to be?

[___]

can't blame him with all these facilitators charging fees on top of CGC, anyone should be able to get anyone's signature witnessed by CGC without having to go through yet another person.

[matty_kay]

probably found a facilitator with the other company that will give him more profit share for his signings.  wouldn't pay his fee then, won't pay it now so its whatever. 

[RadiantGraphix]

3 hours ago, 1p36DSA said:

can't blame him with all these facilitators charging fees on top of CGC, anyone should be able to get anyone's signature witnessed by CGC without having to go through yet another person.

That’s a little dismissive of the whole reason facilitators exist.  I can’t personally attend any cons due to family obligations. So, a facilitator like Doug Peters or Rich Henn get me the signatures I want for my books. I don’t mind the few extra $$$ I have to throw their way to get my quad signed books.  If Rob wants a cut of THEIR profits too, then that’s a reall a-hole move. And “the other company” facilitators charge the same surcharge, so that doesn’t really make any sense. 

[DjMartini]

29 minutes ago, RadiantGraphix said:

That’s a little dismissive of the whole reason facilitators exist.  I can’t personally attend any cons due to family obligations. So, a facilitator like Doug Peters or Rich Henn get me the signatures I want for my books. I don’t mind the few extra $$$ I have to throw their way to get my quad signed books.  If Rob wants a cut of THEIR profits too, then that’s a reall a-hole move. And “the other company” facilitators charge the same surcharge, so that doesn’t really make any sense. 

I fully agree! 

If I can't attend a show, and I really want a signature, I'm going to need someone to get that for me. So facilitators are needed and the good ones get the job done!

Does suck is Rob wants a cut of their charge as well, which may mean facilitators will have to charge more and then everyone loses in the end. 

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by martini25

[jasonms711]

Just avoid his line if he doesn't want to work with CGC. How many books did he actually do that people want to stand in line for anyway? I got my New Mutants 87 and 98 signed back when he was only charging 20 bucks each. I would never pay the current asking price. I'd just get Nicieza to any new 98s I come across. Liefeld didn't even create the version of Deadpool that everyone started to love. 

[1950's war comics]

Liefeld artwork is pure DREK 

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, RadiantGraphix said:

That’s a little dismissive of the whole reason facilitators exist.  I can’t personally attend any cons due to family obligations. So, a facilitator like Doug Peters or Rich Henn get me the signatures I want for my books. I don’t mind the few extra $$$ I have to throw their way to get my quad signed books.  If Rob wants a cut of THEIR profits too, then that’s a reall a-hole move. And “the other company” facilitators charge the same surcharge, so that doesn’t really make any sense. 

When facilitators began to make "exclusive" deals with creators, whereby no one could get a book signed AND slabbed by CGC under the SS program without going through them, AND THEM ALONE...that's when they crossed the line.

It shouldn't be tolerated, by anyone, for any reason. 

It's one thing to pay someone to do the legwork to get a book signed for you.

It is QUITE another to have some goon who is NOT the creator demand to know what your intentions are FOR YOUR OWN PROPERTY, and then, to add insult to injury, to charge a HIGHER PRICE FOR THE SAME SERVICE based on your answer.

It's RIDICULOUS, it hurts creators, it hurts fans, it hurts CGC, and the only people it helps are these "facilitators" who think it's cute to make "stables" of "talent" that they "represent." And...I daresay that 90% of the creators have been told outright lies...like "anyone who does CGC is making FAT STACKS off your sig bro! You need a piece of that action, and I can get it for you!!!!"

It's just extortion, plain and simple. 

Edited March 7, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

JUST SAY NO to two-tiered, discriminatory pricing.

JUST SAY NO to "oh, there's raw pricing, and CGC pricing" FOR THE EXACT SAME ACTION...signing a comic.

JUST SAY NO to people asking you what you plan on doing WITH YOUR OWN PROPERTY, when it's none of their damn business in the first place.

And yes, I'm just as much of an addict as the rest of you. I paid Claremont his extortion fee, I mean, his "CGC upcharge"....$3,000...at the NYCC, when he would have signed the exact same number of comics, in the exact same way, if someone said they WEREN'T "CGCing" them, for $1500. Yes, I paid it. Yes, Chris Claremont discriminated against me.

But at least I got to deal with Claremont MYSELF.

Creators can charge whatever they want...if Neal Adams wants $10,000 for his signature, more power to him. But if he's charging a DIFFERENT PRICE for the EXACT SAME SERVICE, based on what he thinks you *might* be doing with YOUR OWN PROPERTY...that's discrimination, and ought not be tolerated.

[newshane]

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

When facilitators began to make "exclusive" deals with creators, whereby no one could get a book signed AND slabbed by CGC under the SS program without going through them, AND THEM ALONE...that's when they crossed the line.

It shouldn't be tolerated, by anyone, for any reason. 

It's one thing to pay someone to do the legwork to get a book signed for you.

It is QUITE another to have some goon who is NOT the creator demand to know what your intentions are FOR YOUR OWN PROPERTY, and then, to add insult to injury, to charge a HIGHER PRICE FOR THE SAME SERVICE based on your answer.

It's RIDICULOUS, it hurts creators, it hurts fans, it hurts CGC, and the only people it helps are these "facilitators" who think it's cute to make "stables" of "talent" that they "represent." And...I daresay that 90% of the creators have been told outright lies...like "anyone who does CGC is making FAT STACKS off your sig bro! You need a piece of that action, and I can get it for you!!!!"

It's just extortion, plain and simple. 

I understand your view, but what if the creator would actually prefer to go through a single facilitator? That does happen.

[newshane]

5 hours ago, RadiantGraphix said:

That’s a little dismissive of the whole reason facilitators exist.  I can’t personally attend any cons due to family obligations. So, a facilitator like Doug Peters or Rich Henn get me the signatures I want for my books. I don’t mind the few extra $$$ I have to throw their way to get my quad signed books.  If Rob wants a cut of THEIR profits too, then that’s a reall a-hole move. And “the other company” facilitators charge the same surcharge, so that doesn’t really make any sense. 

I was about to type something along these lines earlier, but bailed. You're paying the facilitator for a service. It's not exactly cheap to fly around the country, stay at hotels, drag around fat stacks of books, walk a 50 mile lap around the convention center every day, stand in line, prep books, fill out paperwork, etc. I certainly wouldn't expect someone to do it for free, and god knows I'm too lazy to do it myself!

Edited March 7, 2018 by newshane

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, newshane said:

I understand your view, but what if the creator would actually prefer to go through a single facilitator? That does happen.

Creators have signed at conventions for decades without facilitators. Creators, in general, don't need facilitators. There's nothing "special" about the CGC process as it relates to a creator. While yes, some creators might like to have a facilitator for line management and cash handling, that doesn't need to be an "you can't submit to CGC unless you go through ME!!" situation at all. 

And there CERTAINLY doesn't need to be a two-tiered signature cost. That's just a plain cash grab, and while yes, people like Liefeld and Max certainly don't mind cash grabs, a lot of creators...like Wolfman or Wein or Claremont...simply don't, or didn't, understand what was actually going on. Wein's handler told me, to my face, that "people are selling them on eBay" as if that was some sort of legitimate answer to anything. Do SOME people sell SS slabs on eBay? Of course. Do ALL people sell SS slabs on eBay? God no! Do SOME people make "fat stacks!!!" off SS books? Yes, of course, but WHY? The answer is always the underlying condition of the book, NOT the signature. The signature is like a cherry on top of a sundae. If your Sundae is a 9.0 Amazing Spiderman #295, guess what? That Sin-Kev-Itch sig ain't adding a dime to its value.

[newshane]

Eh, I'm pretty much over moderns and signatures now anyway.

[Drbearsec]

2 hours ago, newshane said:

I understand your view, but what if the creator would actually prefer to go through a single facilitator? That does happen.

Isn't that essentially what DScott's guys do?  Miller, Kubert, Zdarksy, etc.  When I did my Miller signing last year at C2E2, Doug was the one who cracked it, submitted etc. at C2E2.

 

[mysterio]

12 hours ago, newshane said:

17 hours ago, RadiantGraphix said:

That’s a little dismissive of the whole reason facilitators exist.  I can’t personally attend any cons due to family obligations. So, a facilitator like Doug Peters or Rich Henn get me the signatures I want for my books. I don’t mind the few extra $$$ I have to throw their way to get my quad signed books.  If Rob wants a cut of THEIR profits too, then that’s a reall a-hole move. And “the other company” facilitators charge the same surcharge, so that doesn’t really make any sense. 

I was about to type something along these lines earlier, but bailed. You're paying the facilitator for a service. It's not exactly cheap to fly around the country, stay at hotels, drag around fat stacks of books, walk a 50 mile lap around the convention center every day, stand in line, prep books, fill out paperwork, etc. I certainly wouldn't expect someone to do it for free, and god knows I'm too lazy to do it myself!

This. People deserve to be paid for work performed and services rendered, especially if we would expect them to be done well. I don't even mind paying (most) creators a fee for their signatures, because they often couldn't/wouldn't appear at a show without compensation of some sort. But expecting to charge more for a CGC book is unfair. I've always thought that if these creators think that their signatures are adding so much value, then they ought to submit their own books for CGC and reap all the "fat stacks" themselves. If they truly believe that everyone is making mega-profits then that would be an easy way to move to easy street.

[RockMyAmadeus]

43 minutes ago, mysterio said:

This. People deserve to be paid for work performed and services rendered, especially if we would expect them to be done well. I don't even mind paying (most) creators a fee for their signatures, because they often couldn't/wouldn't appear at a show without compensation of some sort. But expecting to charge more for a CGC book is unfair. I've always thought that if these creators think that their signatures are adding so much value, then they ought to submit their own books for CGC and reap all the "fat stacks" themselves. If they truly believe that everyone is making mega-profits then that would be an easy way to move to easy street.

Absolutely, positively, 100% agree with everything here.

Everyone deserves to be paid for their work. No one should be expected to work for free.

I have zero problem paying for sigs, and, when creators have not charged me, I have zero problem donating to Heroes Initiative, which is a great charity helping older creators who need assistance.

There are two core problems, however, in the current "system":

1. People attempting to "stable" creators, and unbelievably convincing CGC to go along with it, whereby nobody can submit to the SS program except through THEM, based on fraudulent and/or misleading promises/information made or given to creators. This is MONOPOLY, and RESTRAINT OF TRADE, in my layman's opinion.

2. Creators being convinced by said "facilitators" that people are "making HUGE money off their sigs", so there needs to be a HIGHER charge for the SAME service if people are "CGCing them", exploiting both greed and fear in these creators. Several creators have openly admitted this. They don't understand what their signature actually does, and how it does...or does NOT...add value to the item being signed.

But who else is being exploited...?

We collectively pay this extortion...and extortion is what it is: "Oh, you want to get the book slabbed? You'll have to pay a higher price."...because we don't want to be cut off, we don't want to make waves, we don't want to hassle people, we justify it as "the cost of doing business", but mostly because we are addicts who behave in classically addicted manners. This addiction is absolutely being exploited.

And a lot of folks don't see this in person, so they don't feel the impact directly. They don't see a creator signing 20 books for $10 for one person, and then you want your ONE book signed, but if it's "for CGC", you get charged the same price that the creator JUST SIGNED 20 books for...and yes, this is a real life example. But it's insulting to watch this happen in person, because it's just a cash grab, exploiting addictive behavior in collectors. If a creator thinks his sig is worth $10, then charge $10 for everyone. $100? Charge $100 to everyone. No one but the cheap would have a problem with this. If people think it's worth it, they'll pay it. If they don't, they won't. 

The value of an SS book, first and foremost, is in the condition of the book, not the signature. If Neal Adams signs a napkin, that napkin doesn't become worth $5,000. If Neal Adams signs a 3.5 copy of Green Lantern #82, that signature doesn't add even what Neal charges to its value. Neal signs a 9.6, and yes, now his sig adds value...usually...but only because it's a 9.6. Neal had nothing to do with looking for, purchasing, maintaining, storing, handling, preparing, going to the con, submitting to CGC, and paying ALL costs along the way, with a not-insignificant amount of risk involved at every step. So, Neal wants some of the reward, but takes NONE of the risk...? How does THAT work...?

And, of course, CGC is hurt because they don't get submissions that they OTHERWISE CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE if these practices weren't happening. I've got hundreds...HUNDREDS...of Liefeld books I'd love to get signed and subbed, but I'm not paying a $20 extortion charge "if it's for CGC" to get a New Mutants #97, that MIGHT grade 9.4. That way lies madness. And, of course, for now and into the foreseeable future, I can't. 

And so creators are being exploited, and collectors are being exploited...follow the money, and you'll find out by whom. There is ZERO ethical justification for charging a higher price for the same service. None. A signature should be ONE price, regardless of what, and no one should be worrying about what happens to it after the fact. If you don't like people "making FAT STACKS!!!!" off your signature? Then contact your "facilitator" and submit your own books and make "all that money" yourself.

And there would be a LOT of very rude awakenings then.

If these things bother you, you should ABSOLUTELY say something, or it will never change, and the endless "$5 for raw, $10/$15/$25/$10,000 for CGC" will continue to be posted. Talk to creators, and explain your position. SHOW PICTURES! If creators see that the sketch cover that they did for you in 2009 is still in your possession, that might make an impact. And if you MUST support your addiction...and I'm with you, I understand!...STILL say something. Separate prices for the same service is UNETHICAL. But if we all just roll over and pay it, nothing will change.

The people who cry and make emotional arguments like "oh, these poor creators deserve whatever they can get, they toil in obscurity for crumbs!"

To that, I say: don't count my money, and I won't count yours. Rob Liefeld was a multimillionaire before the age of 30. So was Todd McFarlane. Neal Adams can spend a day or two drawing a cover and sell it for $25,000. And none of that is my business. But neither, then, is it THEIR business what I do with MY property. Sign it, don't sign it, charge, don't charge...but what I do with it after is none of your concern, and shouldn't be a factor in whether you charge me a surcharge above and beyond your regular signature price.

But if someone feels that a creator needs help, there is absolutely nothing stopping those people from helping these creators directly and yet, oddly enough, those crying the loudest are usually the tightest with their purse strings.

You want to do something to help the creators who are REALLY in need? Contact Jim McLaughlin at Heroes Initiative and ask if there's anything you can do, ESPECIALLY if there are creators who live near you who might need assistance. Put your money where your mouth is.

PS. Rob Beachler is a dope, and doesn't know what he's talking about (see above Twitter reply.)

[kevhtx]

I agree with some of the points and think some things aren't fair about it. I wish sometimes I didn't have to pay more at times. But, if I want to get a pen in someone's hand to move, it's their rules, not mine. I can pay or hit the road. The comic industry isn't much different than many other hobbies. There are sharks and people making money right and left off of the fans and the artists/athletes/musicians and so on and so on.

In the end, the rules aren't going to be what changes things. It is going to be the price-tag and the popularity.  People don't care about rules or who behind the scenes is making the money.