What's up with Rob Liefeld? No CGC? 4 4

[kevhtx]

1 minute ago, reddwarf666222 said:

Say it once and let it go

 

This hobby is a fun way for me to get away from the work and stress of everyday life. It seems that some board members want to dwell on the negativity of the hobby and turn it into another stresser. I am not challenging anyone's motives. They very well may be genuine. It is fine for them, to each their own. Some on the forum just simply seem to attack other board members (I am not pointing at anyone on this thread, just simply stating from seeing it in other threads). It is sad to see the negativity and grumpiness for such a fun hobby.

For me, yes, it sucks to have to sometimes pay a little extra when maybe I shouldn't have to. But, there are many, many things like that in everyday life. I have to pick and choose what I spend my time dwelling on. I am a single dad of a 3 year old, run my own business, work full-time and have many other commitments. This hobby is an escape for me. Turning it into another stress or another negative thought by focusing on the bad things about it or continuing to read fights between board members for really no reason is absurd. It is like going on a tropical vacation to a wonderful resort, but complaining the WHOLE time you are there because a couple things make you mad about the resort.

[RockMyAmadeus]

59 minutes ago, reddwarf666222 said:

Yes you voice your concern by not purchasing the service at that time, letting the creator/handler at the time of the possible transaction of your issue, and later writing to the handler/creator in something you can track your displeasure if it still bothers you then. Yet for some to continue to advocate their position left and right on forum like this anytime something happens like such and such person has an exclusive or this person won't allow CGC gets tiresome to a lot of people on these boards. Honestly creates some sympathy towards creators and handlers because it comes across as a constant attack and beef some of these members have to where they make themselves look like a villain or the entitled and the creators/handlers/facilitators like saints.  

Say it once and let it go

 

Yes, because that's how change happens: say something once, and move on. That's how all the great social, political, and economic changes of the last 100 year happened. And when nothing changes, but gets WORSE...you definitely don't say anything, because, hey, you already said something once, so what's your problem...?

/sarcasm

It's like Lincoln sending a strongly worded letter to South Carolina, then saying "well, I said my peace, that's that!" 

The grown-up answer, as always, is that if you don't like what someone says, move on yourself. If someone develops sympathy for a position merely because someone is persistent about the opposite position, they're having an emotional, juvenile reaction. And I daresay that there are quite a few MORE people who disagree with your characterization, and think that the constant glib, dismissive, snide, insincere opposition is part of the problem. I'm basing that on the reactions to various posts in this thread. I wouldn't, however, presume to speak for others, so I wouldn't know what gets "tiresome" to "a lot" of people on this board unless they, themselves, have said so.

You would be very good at writing propaganda. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

25 minutes ago, kevhtx said:

This hobby is a fun way for me to get away from the work and stress of everyday life. It seems that some board members want to dwell on the negativity of the hobby and turn it into another stresser. I am not challenging anyone's motives. They very well may be genuine. It is fine for them, to each their own. Some on the forum just simply seem to attack other board members (I am not pointing at anyone on this thread, just simply stating from seeing it in other threads). It is sad to see the negativity and grumpiness for such a fun hobby.

For me, yes, it sucks to have to sometimes pay a little extra when maybe I shouldn't have to. But, there are many, many things like that in everyday life. I have to pick and choose what I spend my time dwelling on. I am a single dad of a 3 year old, run my own business, work full-time and have many other commitments. This hobby is an escape for me. Turning it into another stress or another negative thought by focusing on the bad things about it or continuing to read fights between board members for really no reason is absurd. It is like going on a tropical vacation to a wonderful resort, but complaining the WHOLE time you are there because a couple things make you mad about the resort.

A great truism of the internet is this: if you're going to voice an opinion, you must be prepared for people to oppose that opinion. If you don't like people dwelling on "negative thoughts" (as you perceive it), then once a conversation heads down that path, the best choice for you might be to no longer read and/or participate in those conversations.

And that's a legitimate position to take. There's nothing forcing anyone to read anything that anyone on these boards writes. There's an ignore function...not the best, but functional...and there's personal will. The majority of conflict on the internet is not disagreement: it's people getting offended that there are people out there who disagree with them. That's how conversations go down the toilet: someone says something, someone disagrees, and the first person is offended, so they take a cheap shot at the other person, and we're off to the races.

But it doesn't need to be that way. There's no need to take a personal shot at someone just because they disagree with you. And yet, there's also a handful of people who simply cannot exercise self-control and not take shots at others unprovoked.

You have the control. You have the ability to participate, not participate, read, not read, respond, not respond, in any conversation you wish, at any time. It's in your hands. After all...isn't complaining about what other people talk about the same thing that you're complaining about them doing...?

Edited March 15, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[kevhtx]

4 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

the best choice for you might be to no longer read and/or participate in those conversations.

I stopped reading most of this thread (my own thread mind you that was about something more specific) a long time ago. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, kevhtx said:

I stopped reading most of this thread (my own thread mind you that was about something more specific) a long time ago. 

Once the "submit" button has been hit, a thread belongs to no one but the universe...

 

 

[kevhtx]

3 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Once the "submit" button has been hit, a thread belongs to no one but the universe...

 

 

True, It doesn't require me to read every one of your novel length posts though.

Edited March 15, 2018 by kevhtx

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, kevhtx said:

It doesn't require me to read every one of your novel length posts though.

See, now, that's a personal shot that just creates the very hostility you're complaining about. 

You can't have it both ways, "kevhtx."

[kevhtx]

1 minute ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

See, now, that's a personal shot that just creates the very hostility you're complaining about. 

You can't have it both ways, "kevhtx."

You are correct. There is actually a much easier way for me to deal with that.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, kevhtx said:

You are correct. There is actually a much easier way for me to deal with that.

Yes, as I mentioned before, there is an "ignore" function...tepid as it may be...if one needs help.

Or, one can simply choose to conduct oneself in a rational, reasonable manner. 

Obnoxious and annoying as that statement may be to some, it's still true.

[seanfingh]

On 3/13/2018 at 2:08 PM, Turtle said:

Let's get back to the topic at hand as I feel it was pretty civilized save for a few posters and very relevant in today's slab-collecting climate.

I agree with what @RockMyAmadeus is saying wholeheartedly.  I think many creators have been misled into their 2-tier price rates, mostly by those who stand to gain a portion of the money.  I agree that attempting to educate a creator is better than pulling my monetary support of said creator in the hopes that they figure out why I'm no longer spending money with them. 

My question: In a convention setting, how does one go about educating a creator or at least begin a dialogue about why a 2-tiered pricing system is a rule built on misconceptions? 

In a convention setting, there will likely be a line of people behind you.  There's a good chance that the creator or a handler will ask you to step out of line if you're not interested in getting anything signed or to talk to the creator about their work.  The creator may be trying to see as many people as possible before the end of the show and will be a little dismissive to someone who may appear to just be looking to start trouble or potentially cause a scene. 

In the event that the creator is willing to engage you in this conversation, you have a max of maybe 3 minutes to make your point and listen to a response before people start getting a little antsy.  I'm betting that many creators will see someone simultaneously wanting something signed and wanting to negotiate a lower price and just assume the person is cheap and motivated by money instead of principle.  If they're thinking you're in it for the money alone, they aren't likely to take you seriously. 

So how do you get around this?  I already know that if I were to attempt this, I have to be willing to walk away with un-signed books.  But what else?  Do I need to "prove" my fandom to the creator?  Many creators that have this pricing structure don't have a ton  of time (any?) at their table without a line.  Trying to pin them down away from their table doesn't sound like a smart move.  Is it best to send an e-mail...the comic equivalent or writing your congressman?

Seriously looking for tips as going about this the wrong way could do more harm than good. 

 

This is where I think the issue gets very murky. And I think it is at the core of the issue.  No matter how much of a true fan or a lover of the artform one is -  at some point these slabs are going to be for sale.  I am going through it right now.  I don't think anyone could argue that I was not a true fan - of the artform, the comics themselves and the SS process. For 10-11 years they were part of a hardcore "black hole" collection.  Now about 75% of them are for sale, and about half of that has been sold over the last 11 months. Am I scummy profiteer? I don't think so. But maybe Jim Starlin or Marv Wolfman might think I am - if they see a Special Marvel Edition 15 sell for $700 or an NTT #1 for $400.  But the books were 9.8s, they were well cared for through sometimes of months of being handled and signed, and they came out the back as 9.8 SS books.  If Jim and Marv are salty about the "fat stacks" I am making, I can also send them sales reports of books that I have 60 bucks into that have been sold for $35. It kind of goes both ways.

The danger of the "true fan" analysis is that it fails to acknowledge several economic realities in favor of a "feeling."

[seanfingh]

I have been pretty busy the last couple of days, so I went ahead and posted a response that is kind of old now, but I still feel like it is germane.

Also, specifically to kevhtx, as it relates to threads taking on a life of their own - many times some of the best and most informative threads evolved from a much more focused origin.  If this thread stays active, you can revel in the fact that your name will live on in perpetuity!!

 

[TYPE-R]

I think this has been the best discussion this board has seen since The Great Forum Culling. I may be against the "CGC punishment tax" but I do understand where the creators are coming from. I don't want to see them taken advantage of anymore then I want to be taken advantage of. This is where CGC and the facilitators need to be responsible for making sure that neither party is. As a sketch collector it pisses me off that deceitful fans have made it so some artist like Amanda Conner and Adam Hughes don't sketch or do very few quick sketches at cons.  That's why it's my hope that CGC and the facilitators can educate the creators as to why this is causing problems and how it's really not in their best interest in the long run.

[Oddjob22667]

I think as long as it is said, that is what is important.  If someone just “choses” to not buy then that could be taken as disinterest in the talent rather than principal or protest. Taking (or not taking) an action while explaining why would be more informing.

[Lucky Baru]

On 3/7/2018 at 12:15 PM, kevhtx said:

I agree with some of the points and think some things aren't fair about it. I wish sometimes I didn't have to pay more at times. But, if I want to get a pen in someone's hand to move, it's their rules, not mine. I can pay or hit the road. The comic industry isn't much different than many other hobbies...

 

100% agree.

[reddwarf666222]

On ‎3‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 11:30 AM, RockMyAmadeus said:

Once the "submit" button has been hit, a thread belongs to no one but the universe...

 

 

My understanding is that you are a seller on ebay and you are complaining because this extra charge effects your bottom line. Ok that makes more sense and if that is the case you are trying to profit off their signatures and the charge is directed towards you.

[RockMyAmadeus]

9 minutes ago, reddwarf666222 said:

My understanding is that you are a seller on ebay and you are complaining because this extra charge effects your bottom line. Ok that makes more sense and if that is the case you are trying to profit off their signatures and the charge is directed towards you.

Your understanding is false, and demonstrates that you have no interest in an honest discussion, but rather want to continue in the dishonest vein of provocateurs like "Stu" and "Logan510." I have already explained this...multiple times...and I will do it again here: I do not care what a creator charges. They are free to charge whatever they want. If they want to charge $10,000,000,000 for their signature, that is THEIR RIGHT. I will decide if it makes economic sense to me at that time. If it does, great. If it does not, then I will move on.

The issue was, is, and has always been the DIFFERENT CHARGE between "raw" signatures and "slabbed" signatures, as has been explained so many times, and in so many ways, only the immensely thick, or the persistently dishonest, would claim otherwise. 

If you and a handful of others want to continue to attempt to muddy the argument by false accusations, then you will be answered. 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

31 minutes ago, reddwarf666222 said:

 you are trying to profit off their signatures 

And on this point, which has also been addressed 1,001 times: yes, everyone who sells a Sig Series book is trying to "profit off their signatures." 

And...?

Did you know publishers try to profit off of far more effort than just signatures...?

Did you know printers try to profit off of far more effort than just signatures...?

Did you know distributors try to profit off of far more effort than just signatures...?

Did you know retailers try to profit off of far more effort than just signatures...?

Yes...in whatever degree a person sells SS slabs, they are trying to "profit" off a creator's signature. 

Again...AND...?

If the creator doesn't want people profiting off his work, the choice is simple: charge so much that not a single person, on the sweetest book, could ever profit...or don't sign.

What someone does with their property is THEIR BUSINESS and THEIR BUSINESS ALONE.

All the fancy arguments and justifications don't have any bearing on that. The creator can sign...or not sign...charge whatever he/she wants...but what someone does with their legally obtained property is none of their business.

And, if creators want to be so greedy and selfish as to raise their prices to remove any potential for profit for anyone, guess what...? People won't support them anymore. 

No sigs...no new books being bought...and then what?

What you preach is just another facet of socialism: "it's not FAIR!!!" If creators are smart...and many of them are....they'll figure out a balance, a way to make it work for everyone involved, that doesn't involve discriminatory practices against one segment of their fan base...and yes, SS people ARE fans, for the most part, despite the claims of the socialist crowd...and recognizes the ACTUAL VALUE of their signature in the market.

And that's all anyone is asking for.

Edited March 16, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, LoveThemSigs said:

X-Men/New Teen Titans

[RockMyAmadeus]

It's a false argument, but let's entertain it for a second, just to demonstrate its folly...

See this book?

A copy of this book, in this grade, signed by Liefeld, sold for $26 on eBay in January.

That was before Liefeld's current CGC ban went into effect.

To replace that book...which is the only valid economic method of determining the value of just about anything...it would cost $30 to slab ($24 if you're a dealer), about $8 to ship, on average, $60 for Liefeld to sign, and another $20 on top of that for Liefeld's CGC punishment tax (someone feel free to correct me on the amount Liefeld charged, but it's ballpark.)

So....you know, since everyone is so concerned with the BOTTOM LINE and everything...what is the BOTTOM LINE here..?

It would cost a MINIMUM of $112-$120 just to get the book signed and slabbed. And that's IF the cost of the book is set at $0 AND all the other costs...time, labor, etc...of obtaining that signature at $0 also.

It sold for $26, plus shipping, which means Pete Dixon made about $20 on it...putting his "net profit" (considering replacement cost) at NEGATIVE $92-$100.

Is it any big loss, then, that Liefeld won't do CGC anymore...? Not really. He priced himself right out of the market anyways. Only the highest graded, ultra keys...like New Mutants #87 and #98...are "worth slabbing" at his costs. So if you want a New Mutants Annual #5, because it's his first New Mutants work...? You'll pay far more than it's worth, AND you may not get the grade you want. I'm glad I got the books I have, and I'm sad I didn't pursue them more aggressively. My Liefeld New Mutants 9.8 run is incomplete, and likely to stay that way for mannnnny years to come. 

And you know what...? It's nobody else's business. What someone may PROFIT is no one else's business, and what someone may LOSE is no one else's business. 

That's the point.

Don't count my money, and I won't count yours.

 

[Logan510]