darkstar Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 1 hour ago, PhilipB2k17 said: So, you're saying Hulk #180 is the true first appearance of Wolverine? I've been making this argument for years but the market has decided otherwise. Or the market just values a later book more because of the cover and content and refer to it as a first appearance out of convenience... Corona smith 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipB2k17 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 (edited) 26 minutes ago, darkstar said: Or the market just values a later book more because of the cover and content and refer to it as a first appearance out of convenience... The days when most collectors valued #181 more for its cover and content are long gone. The Market decided it was the 1st appearance of Wolverine, and that's stuck. It's not, but never mind. Edited March 12, 2018 by PhilipB2k17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExNihilo Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 8 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said: The days when most collectors valued #181 more for its cover and content are long gone. The Market decided it was the 1st appearance of Wolverine, and that's stuck. It's not, but never mind. The same argument could be made for Amazing Spider-Man #299 vs #300. I think one appearance in a frame constitutes a cameo. This is partially the case with Metal #2, however in ASM #299 and IH #180, the appearance occurs on the last frame/page. In Metal #2, his full appearance occurs on one of the final 5 pages and the rest of the frames have him giving a speech, which in my opinion constitutes a first full appearance. This with the aforementioned fact that the story precedes Teen Titans #12 means Metal #2 has my vote. I think grading community could help the cause by correctly listing books on eBay or wherever with Metal #2 as the first appearance. Or maybe just write to CGC and have them officially weigh in on it providing evidence with Snyder's remarks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExNihilo Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 1 hour ago, ygogolak said: You're telling me this guy: is supposed to be this guy: And people wonder why this hasn't been picked up? Yeah, I had to go through and use the process of elimination just to be sure. But it is a cameo after all so it's meant to be a little unclear. iJOKER 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipB2k17 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, ExNihilo said: The same argument could be made for Amazing Spider-Man #299 vs #300. I think one appearance in a frame constitutes a cameo. This is partially the case with Metal #2, however in ASM #299 and IH #180, the appearance occurs on the last frame/page. In Metal #2, his full appearance occurs on one of the final 5 pages and the rest of the frames have him giving a speech, which in my opinion constitutes a first full appearance. This with the aforementioned fact that the story precedes Teen Titans #12 means Metal #2 has my vote. I think grading community could help the cause by correctly listing books on eBay or wherever with Metal #2 as the first appearance. Or maybe just write to CGC and have them officially weigh in on it providing evidence with Snyder's remarks. Wolverine introduces himself by name in full regalia in the last panel of Hulk #180. It's not just a cameo. It's the character's full introduction. It's his first full, true, appearance. The market has simply decided that it's not. It's understandable that ASM 299 might be compared to this, but Venom was in the shadows, and you didn't see a full version of him, or get his name. Edited March 12, 2018 by PhilipB2k17 F For Fake 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkstar Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 29 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said: The days when most collectors valued #181 more for its cover and content are long gone. The Market decided it was the 1st appearance of Wolverine, and that's stuck. It's not, but never mind. Uh no. The book is referred to as the first appearance of Wolverine because that is the easiest way to explain its value in a concise and easy way. The cover and content are exactly the reason why it pulls the money that it does, the market isn't confused about the character's actual first appearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipB2k17 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, darkstar said: Uh no. The book is referred to as the first appearance of Wolverine because that is the easiest way to explain its value in a concise and easy way. The cover and content are exactly the reason why it pulls the money that it does, the market isn't confused about the character's actual first appearance. Whatever. If IH 181 is referred to as anything other than the second appearance of Wolverine, then the market is "confused." The hobby literally invented the "first full appearance" designation to account for this value discrepancy. There is no way the cover alone should give it that much of a premium value bump. The hulk/wovernine fight is cool, I guess. But, it's not enough of a value bump to account for the discrepancy, IMHO. I've always pointed out that FF 48 intros Galactus in the last panel, and that's his 1st appearance, not FF 49, despite the "classic cover" and the "classic story." Edited March 12, 2018 by PhilipB2k17 Eddie Brock 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygogolak Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said: Wolverine introduces himself by name in full regalia in the last panel of Hulk #180. It's not just a cameo. It's the character's full introduction. It's his first full, true, appearance. The market has simply decided that it's not. It's understandable that ASM 299 might be compared to this, but Venom was in the shadows, and you didn't see a full version of him, or get his name. Huh? Edited March 12, 2018 by ygogolak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipB2k17 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 Just now, ygogolak said: Huh? Fine. He's not technically introducing himself, but whatever. If you are reading that for the first time back when it came out, is that the name of the character, or the story in the next issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkstar Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 1 hour ago, PhilipB2k17 said: Whatever. If IH 181 is referred to as anything other than the second appearance of Wolverine, then the market is "confused." The hobby literally invented the "first full appearance" designation to account for this value discrepancy. There is no way the cover alone should give it that much of a premium value bump. The hulk/wovernine fight is cool, I guess. But, it's not enough of a value bump to account for the discrepancy, IMHO. I've always pointed out that FF 48 intros Galactus in the last panel, and that's his 1st appearance, not FF 49, despite the "classic cover" and the "classic story." But the market isn't confused. The market refers to IH 181 as the first appearance, not because they aren't aware of his appearance in 180, but because if one is discussing or otherwise referencing the value or importance of that book it is much easier and quicker to simply say Wolverine's first appearance, than to explain verbally or in writing that the book is actually Wolverine's second appearance, but it commands more money than the previous issue because Wolverine appears on the cover and is actually featured throughout the book and because an overwhelming amount of capital has been put into 181 at this point so market confidence in that book is high plus the market is shifting towards favoring cover appearances because of the increasingly popularity of grading services which render the ability to appreciate interior content obsolete. But sure, continue to cry from the rooftops that the market has been fooled into believing that IH 181 is Wolverine's first appearance. F For Fake 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F For Fake Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 (edited) I saw some BWL cosplay this weekend, which often bodes well for a character's popularity/value. However, it doesn't bode well for the cosplayer, as there is no good way to SEE when wearing that get up. Yeesh. What looks cool in a comic isn't always a good idea for walking around a con floor. Edited March 12, 2018 by F For Fake ADAMANTIUM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazyboy Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 8 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said: Wolverine introduces himself by name in full regalia in the last panel of Hulk #180. It's not just a cameo. It's the character's full introduction. It's his first full, true, appearance. The market has simply decided that it's not. It's understandable that ASM 299 might be compared to this, but Venom was in the shadows, and you didn't see a full version of him, or get his name. No, it isn't. Wolverine is a complete non-factor for the entirety of the story in 180. The only purpose of his very brief appearance is as a teaser for the next issue. Appearance means the character is in the story (ads need not apply). Full appearance means the character is in a significant portion of the story (not one panel). 7 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said: Whatever. If IH 181 is referred to as anything other than the second appearance of Wolverine, then the market is "confused." The hobby literally invented the "first full appearance" designation to account for this value discrepancy. No, the hobby invented it because there is a significant history of characters appearing at the end of an issue as a lead-in to the next story, whether it's their 1st or 497th appearance. Back when people actually read the books, they would want to see their favourite characters in more than one panel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmo850 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 What’s the thoughts on Dark Nights Metal #2 Mattina with BMWL on the cover? It’s the “first appearance” with him on the cover but it’s also a 3rd print which definitely came after TT12. Noticed this 9.8 with CGC not designating the issue as 1st appearance yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipB2k17 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, Lazyboy said: No, it isn't. Wolverine is a complete non-factor for the entirety of the story in 180. The only purpose of his very brief appearance is as a teaser for the next issue. Appearance means the character is in the story (ads need not apply). Full appearance means the character is in a significant portion of the story (not one panel). No, the hobby invented it because there is a significant history of characters appearing at the end of an issue as a lead-in to the next story, whether it's their 1st or 497th appearance. Back when people actually read the books, they would want to see their favourite characters in more than one panel. Yes, I understand the post-hoc rationalization for why the market decided IH 181 is the first appearance of Wolverine, rather than IH 180. And, I'm sure the collector market would totally agree with your argument if Batman was introduced in TEC 26, in exactly the same way as Wolverine was in IH 180. I really don't care. It is what it is, whether I agree with it or not. Edited March 13, 2018 by PhilipB2k17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
combiner1 Posted March 13, 2018 Author Share Posted March 13, 2018 It’s funny, CGC wouldn’t take a stand on which book was/is BWL first appearance but they note all the 1 shot as origin issues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedcake Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 *really doesn't care* *argues passionately for the cause* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeedforceKJ Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 (edited) 55 minutes ago, combiner1 said: It’s funny, CGC wouldn’t take a stand on which book was/is BWL first appearance but they note all the 1 shot as origin issues that's why I was saying it's so odd that they havent said anything. It's been 6 months now since it came out. Edited March 13, 2018 by SpeedforceKJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmo850 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 I asked CGC what was up with them not recognizing ANY issue as a first appearance and this is what they said... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExNihilo Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 48 minutes ago, Desmo850 said: I asked CGC what was up with them not recognizing ANY issue as a first appearance and this is what they said... Whoever said they asked Snyder and he remarked Metal #2 should send that convo to DC and Snyder for confirmation and cc CGC. Problem solved. Eddie Brock 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Second Blight Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, ExNihilo said: Whoever said they asked Snyder and he remarked Metal #2 should send that convo to DC and Snyder for confirmation and cc CGC. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
