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The Poll you all Demanded! Boris!
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Boris  

32 members have voted

  1. 1. Would the Savage Sword of Conan (SSOC) #1 cover painting auction for 100k if at Heritage tomorrow?

    • Yes - I'm rubbing the oil onto my biceps in preparation! 100k all the way!
      9
    • No - never happen
      17
    • Crack! And lots of it!
      6


72 posts in this topic

4 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Boris was best when he was illustrating, not painting posed figures. That's why I like his SSOC covers.

Well, I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean, considering a lot of his 'posed figures' works were also illustrations (just for products you may not have been into).     So its not because his 'illustrations' are better.   I can point you to illustrations of his you'd like and ones you wouldn't.

The real reason most comic book people (probably including you with all due respect) like his SSOC covers is because they are SSOC covers.    

And that's fine, context should and does matter, and if its comic centric context, comic people will appreciate it. 

Edited by Bronty
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4 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Well, I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean, considering a lot of his 'posed figures' works were also illustrations (just for products you may not have been into).     So its not because his 'illustrations' are better.   I can point you to illustrations of his you'd like and ones you wouldn't.

The real reason most comic book people (probably including you with all due respect) like his SSOC covers is because they are SSOC covers.    

And that's fine, context should and does matter, and if its comic centric context, comic people will appreciate it. 

I think it may also be because when Boris did SSOC covers, he knew he was illustrating a comic story, not a book. So, he didn't use static, photorealistic poses, so much. They are more dynamic, and have more savagery to them than is posed body-builder Conan paintings.

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51 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I think it may also be because when Boris did SSOC covers, he knew he was illustrating a comic story, not a book. So, he didn't use static, photorealistic poses, so much. They are more dynamic, and have more savagery to them than is posed body-builder Conan paintings.

Meh.    No offense but I think you're reaching on that one.    Take SSOC 9 or 15 just to name a couple of the first ones I googled and put them on book covers and what do you have?    His typical book covers.     Take a good look at the art and forget its Conan.   A couple of them, like #1, might be 'more savage' because there's action happening, but plenty of them (most) don't have that going on.

People like SSOC because its SSOC.    If SSOC 5 where he's posing and flexing on the cross, or SSOC 10, where he's flexing standing still, were published elsewhere most comic fans would be more critical of the images.    Those pieces are still fine pieces (almost any piece by anyone can be criticized) but most comic collectors will gloss over the flaws on the art that's on their favorite comic and only see them on pieces published elsewhere.

I'm no different in terms of liking where it was published as a big factor in how I collect.   I proudly collect his 'worst' period because its published on material I like.   

Edited by Bronty
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2 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

posed body-builder Conan paintings.

You know, I saw this page posted and its a fine page and everything, but it also reminds me of how that criticism OFTEN can and should be levelled at B&W comic art.    The physiques etc here are equally (more?) ridiculous.    Look at the lats on that last panel lol He can fly with those wings!

 

5aa6c056b85e0_FFThingunknownissue.thumb.

Edited by Bronty
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3 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

This is hindsight. At the time he was producing his best stuff, he was rated pretty highly.

I mark his best stuff as late 70s to early 80s. You're playing shades of grey with me here, ever read the actual CBG and other zine remarks by fans from then? They're much closer to my shade than yours, and what I'm basing my comment on. Frazetta I spotted, and spotted as a master in 1981 (Death Dealer, in whatever Ballantine collection it was in, in the art section). Being 9 years old then, I probably thought those "other" new book covers at Barnes & Noble were "on a bad day" Frazettas lol

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Just now, vodou said:

I mark his best stuff as late 70s to early 80s. You're playing shades of grey with me here, ever read the actual CBG and other zine remarks by fans from then? They're much closer to my shade than yours, and what I'm basing my comment on. Frazetta I spotted, and spotted as a master in 1981 (Death Dealer, in whatever Ballantine collection it was in, in the art section). Being 9 years old then, I probably thought those "other" new book covers at Barnes & Noble were "on a bad day" Frazettas lol

I dunno Michael, I think you are both right?    My sense of the time was that no one disputed Frazetta as being A and Boris as being B but they were kind of talked about as a pair back then.      Now when Boris gets talked about as a pair, its with Julie not with Frank.

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2 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Boris was best when he was illustrating, not painting posed figures. That's why I like his SSOC covers.

He always posed real people. What changed is he switched from generic beautiful people models to bodybuilders (as models). This seemed to coincide with his own personal bodybuilding interest growing, and using himself almost exclusively as the male mode  for his work. I'd also use this to respond to Bronty above re: beefcake-era-denial ;)

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2 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I think it may also be because when Boris did SSOC covers, he knew he was illustrating a comic story, not a book. So, he didn't use static, photorealistic poses, so much. They are more dynamic, and have more savagery to them than is posed body-builder Conan paintings.

Completely disagree. His SSOC covers were contemporary with the rest of his early/mid 1970s era body of work, both in look/feel and also date of creation. Those Conan novel covers came...later, about a decade later! And they look/feel the same as the rest of his early/mid 80s output for whatever product. I like that mid 70s to early 80s period best (by far), to the point I don't care what the product is one over another (Conan or Tarzan or random ripoff "clone" character, as example). Boris is one dude that it's really easy to id (within a 3-7 year period) "when" something was painted.

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11 minutes ago, Bronty said:

I dunno Michael, I think you are both right?    My sense of the time was that no one disputed Frazetta as being A and Boris as being B but they were kind of talked about as a pair back then.      Now when Boris gets talked about as a pair, its with Julie not with Frank.

Correct! But Boris was spoken of as "on a trajectory to be" and Fraz was already the retiring/ed master (by say 1982ish, Fire & Ice era). I never saw or heard those types of comments (re: Boris) from the mid/late 80s on as the cocoa butter oil bodies came into the fore. And honestly that stuff was such a turnoff I really didn't keep up with his new output from that point on.

I was never (just cuz?) one to be enamored by an artist because they illustrated something I loved (product over art). It just didn't work that way for me. So good/great Boris = I'm there!, and worse/bad Boris = uh uh. That late painting you posted that went for $10k on HA, good example to point out but (for me) his "return" to softer does not compete with his early period. It's beefcake "light" imo (so "worse" but not "bad"). I would not own it at any price, because of the figure; the background - I LOVE. Anyway, the result of my aesthetic is, and I'm sure folks could make faces at some stuff in my collection nonetheless!, that I'm short on nostalgia pieces and very, very long on artistic peak or even (semi, completely?) unrecognized (by name, so far anyway) masters. I chase image, product and signature far back if at all (and probably that does figure in, somehow, so I don't want to be labeled bs-er by not leaving the door cracked a bit).

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To anyone from the outside world, Frazetta's content is cheesy and ridiculous. However, if they know about drawing, they can see that there's an authentic pulp energy there that is unmatched. Boris lacks that inspired quality entirely, and only ever had the cheese. That's how I saw it as a young fan in the seventies, and my view hasn't changed at all, except for that beautifully perverted Tom-of-Finland looking Daredevil piece, which ranks with that amazing Liefeld Captain America. Boris should go more in that direction. He might even crack the fine art world if he took that a step further.

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That’s the sort of generalized criticism which I feel is both unfair and inaccurate.    There’s good Boris and bad Boris , but good Boris is good.   And it’s even dynamic sometimes although no one would label that as his greatest strength.   

For example I really like the national lampoon spread he did (even the dog is scared lol ).    I wish he’d done more humour because he was great at it!   The few humor pieces he did are probably my favourite work of his.   You can’t do humour if your art is lifeless and you can’t draw

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On 3/12/2018 at 12:23 PM, PhilipB2k17 said:

This is hindsight. At the time he was producing his best stuff, he was rated pretty highly. It turned pretty schlocky after that, and ruined his reputation. Also, I think the appreciation for Frazetta went up exponentially. So it was a combination of Boris' rep going way down, and Frazetta's going way up. But, for a time (in the late 70's to early 80's) Boris was considered "right up there" with Frazetta. Maybe not among art collectors, but among fans.

Coincidentally just within the last few months I mentioned Frazetta to my coworker and told him I am sure you don’t  know who that is. He is in his early 50’s and he said he does know Frazetta as he did a lot of the covers for his favorite books he read growing up in the 70s. He then immediately said his favorite artist on those books was Boris Vallejo and said I’m sure you don’t know who that is.

I told him to hold my beer.

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Some thoughts while on a train to Edinburgh:

1.  I think #7 is far and away Boris' best SSOC cover, though I love the #1 too being a huge Red Sonja fan.  Never liked the #5 that much...memorable scene, yes, but, Conan's features are too caveman-like for my liking. 

2.  I would beware of using $39K as the new benchmark for that level of SSOC cover and extrapolating much higher prices for better examples.  It's entirely possible, if not probable, that $39K was a bit of an outlier.  

3.  I remember that the #1 was allegedly available privately for $60K maybe 10-12 years ago.  I loved the cover, but thought that was a pretty nutty price.  Is it worth $100K now?  Even if I was still spending now like I was in 2011-2015, I don't think I could get there mentally, to be frank.  Not that some trophy hunter out there might not take it at that level, but, I would still take the under. 

4.  I got into both Boris and Frazetta art back in 1982 after discovering their work in paperback covers at the library. I do recall a time when both were mentioned in the same breath. Heck, there was a time when Battlestar Galactica and Star Wars were mentioned in the same breath!  You just had to be there, kiddos. 

5.  I agree with Michael - mid-1970s to early 1980s was Boris' best period.  For me, 1982 was the last year in which his art was consistently good (sometimes cheesy, of course, but good). Not that you can't find good examples from other periods, but, for me, 1982 marked the end of his prime period, and his work became progressively more variable in terms of visual appeal after that. 

 

 

 

Edited by delekkerste
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just googled #7... wow that IS nice.  Still think #1 would sell for more but visually that's a gem

 

latest?cb=20080803230303

Edited by Bronty
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6 hours ago, delekkerste said:

1982 marked the end of his prime period, and his work became progressively more variable in terms of visual appeal after that. 

 

 

 

Say the guys with no interest in any of his work after 1982!  ;) And I get why, if I was shopping by image, or by comic collector 'context' 1985-1995 wouldn't be a great period.    But if shopping by image it does pick up folks, a lot, after 1995.   

Daredevil notwithstanding ;)

Just type a year from say 1998 to 2010 and his name into google.    I did that with 2003 and one of the first hits was this - visually interesting, nicely rendered, etc.     I'm not big on the subject matter - I'll leave the wings to victoria's secret models - but that's a nice painting regardless.

ca391719d3d611c8058414a5af70f9c2--cross-

Edited by Bronty
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1 hour ago, Bronty said:

Say the guys with no interest in any of his work after 1982!  ;) And I get why, if I was shopping by image, or by comic collector 'context' 1985-1995 wouldn't be a great period.    But if shopping by image it does pick up folks, a lot, after 1995.   

Daredevil notwithstanding ;)

Just type a year from say 1998 to 2010 and his name into google.    I did that with 2003 and one of the first hits was this - visually interesting, nicely rendered, etc.     I'm not big on the subject matter - I'll leave the wings to victoria's secret models - but that's a nice painting regardless.

ca391719d3d611c8058414a5af70f9c2--cross-

That's a Julie Bell painting from 2003. :gossip: 

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2 hours ago, Bronty said:

just googled #7... wow that IS nice.  Still think #1 would sell for more but visually that's a gem

 

latest?cb=20080803230303

#1 would definitely sell for more, but, this is easily Boris' best SSOC cover artistically, IMO.  Looking at this, you can see why many viewed him as the heir to Frazetta in the fantasy art world. 

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