Collectible Insurance Services review
5 5

135 posts in this topic

22,067 posts
On 3/19/2018 at 6:40 AM, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

I think you may not be covered.

Yeah, I wouldn't take anything they say at face value.  I bet a lot of these framers don't know what things like comic art are worth - sure, their insurance may cover that "$250 piece of art" you just brought in, but, what if it's worth $25K?  $250K?  

Anyway, I'm sorry to hear about the OP's troubles with CIS.  I've been insuring with them for a long time (15 years probably).  I filed one claim, maybe 4-5 years ago IIRC.  They did pay out, but, initially said the damage was not covered.  I was like, seriously?  If you don't cover something like this, why exactly am I using you?  Why have I paid tens of thousands of dollars to you in premiums if you can't cover a routine damage claim that's less than the cost of a single year's premium?  While they did eventually admit that their initial assessment was wrong and paid the claim, it did leave my confidence a bit shaken in their willingness/ability to pay out a total loss claim if one ever occurred (which is my primary reason for having the policy in the first place).  As far as I know, I have not heard of any major (as in 7 figures minimum) claims filed by any comic or comic art collectors, so this has yet to be put to the test.  

If anyone gets a quote from Chubb, I'd be curious to hear how much of a premium it costs over CIS.  After my one experience filing a claim with CIS, I looked into it, but, Chubb required a much more detailed application (my collection is not small) and I ended up not investigating it further.

Also, as far as the framers' go, I stopped dropping off pieces for them to frame on their own schedule.  Nowadays, I will take the piece in myself for measurements and frame/mat/plexi selection, but, will tell them to give me a call when the materials have arrived so I can drop the piece off and pick it up on the same day.  Minimizing the time a piece is out of my hands is better for everybody. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26,582 posts
3 hours ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

As I said earlier, I doubt you are covered. I think it may be helpful for you to discuss with your insurance rep what is meant by negligence in the insurance world, and what is meant by umbrella coverage, and what is meant by catastrophic coverage, and what is menat by liability coverage, and, BTW what is meant by transport coverage (auto) and what is or is not covered when there is a blip in the road and your expensive pieces don't quite get to the drop off point, coming or going.

When you drop off something and when you pick it up does not have anything to do with the issue. It is what happens before and in between and after that counts, and who is on the hook when bad stuff happens.

These are very good questions to ask, thanks for posting them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12,797 posts
18 hours ago, skypinkblu said:

The problem with a rider is, you most likely will need to get appraisals before you get the insurance or you won't collect if something happened. I had a jewelry rider and I almost got stuck because 1 thing was stolen (in about 15 years of paying premiums) and the person who did the original appraisal was no longer in business.

I called our carriers before I bought collectible insurance. They said I'd need appraisals.  If my books were all cgc maybe they'd take GPA, but mine are not all cgc and GPA changes all the time.

I called a few other places and they all needed professional appraisals, too.  CIA did not, they just want a list (pictures of course if you have them) and a separate list of anything over $5k.

As a token of advise that should be more deemed "friendly" rather than "expert", the same problem that you experienced with the rider could happen with an insurer who doesn't ask for an appraisal. In fact, I'd question why one would ask for one, and the other wouldn't. I'm basing this opinion on experiences where the one not asking for an appraisal might have denied, or paid but cancelled shortly after, whereas the rider might have contested an a valuation that was dealt with using a current appraised value, and paid out with no issues thereafter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12,797 posts
On 19/03/2018 at 7:38 AM, OrangeCrush said:

because they don't want to have to claim anything on their insurance as that usually leads to an increase in insurance rates.

100%. BUT, again, that is why subrogation SHOULD be used in such situations. Give the insured their money, and leave the insurance company to shake down and overturn convenient excuses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26,582 posts
5 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

As a token of advise that should be more deemed "friendly" rather than "expert", the same problem that you experienced with the rider could happen with an insurer who doesn't ask for an appraisal. In fact, I'd question why one would ask for one, and the other wouldn't. I'm basing this opinion on experiences where the one not asking for an appraisal might have denied, or paid but cancelled shortly after, whereas the rider might have contested an a valuation that was dealt with using a current appraised value, and paid out with no issues thereafter.

I'm sure you are correct.  But that's how CIA does it, I'm sure they wouldn't turn down an appraisal but since they don't require one (and I don't live near you;) I'll take a chance.

As I said, I had a jewelry rider with appraisals on each piece, written signed, sealed, the whole 9 yards.  I got one anytime I bought (or my husband bought) a nice piece of jewelry.

When I had a bracelet stolen, they tried to invalidate the appraisal.

The bracelet that was stolen was covered, I had replacement coverage, they actually had someone make me a new one. They just didn't accept the appraisal. Gold had gone up a lot since the appraisal was made. Luckily I had a piece of the original bracelet in my safe deposit box (I had it made smaller at one time) and they had to accept that instead. My current jeweler verified that he had cleaned the bracelet and that it was  piece from that specific item.

I was coming back from a comic show of all things and someone clipped this thing right off my wrist at the Chicago airport.  One of these freaky  pick pocket type things that I figured out after.  Some young girls (late teens/early 20's)  blocked me from walking and another one walking from the back "bumped into me and banged my wrist.  I thought it was just an annoyance at the time.  I didn't notice it was missing, till I got on the plane.

It was a diamond bracelet I had just worn every day for years, I just slept with it on. Never even thought about leaving it home because I never thought about the fact that it had gone up so much. Needless to say I learned a lesson;) I don't wear real jewelry to comic shows or airports anymore ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12,797 posts
26 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

As I said, I had a jewelry rider with appraisals on each piece, written signed, sealed, the whole 9 yards.  I got one anytime I bought (or my husband bought) a nice piece of jewelry.

When I had a bracelet stolen, they tried to invalidate the appraisal.

Sorry to hear Sharon. As a general statement, and not minimize the loss, but jewelry appraisals are usually what we refer to as "fluffy."

When I asked for an appraisal on several pieces I had appraised last year, I walked up to the jeweler and told him I didn't want a "fluffy" appraisal. He knew exactly what I was referring to and based it on fair market value principles.

A good measure of how valid the insured value would be relative to what someone might pay is to walk into a jeweler and ask them what they would pay for that particular piece.

Unfortunately one of the more common things you will hear is that an appraisal on jewelery is valued at somewhere between 10-30% of what the market would actually pay, but that's also an indication of the profit margin a retailer would be comfortable paying to justify adding it in their showroom or showcase.

And it's not to undermine such appraisals, as they can be complex, and do need to factor in actual cost to replace the piece with local labour, expertise, access to materials, etc.

Conversely, when I'm writing an insurance appraisal on a collectible which has shown a pattern of appreciating in value, the back-up used to validate that number is on a lot stronger ground to get full value, and in cases where the appraisal is dated, to receive an update which assures the insured will receive full value at the time of the loss.

There are certainly examples in fine jewelery markets of rare rings, necklaces, bracelets, that markedly appreciate in value year after year, but those generally have a lot more going for them in the areas of provenenance, history, and age, that works to not only store value beyond the precious metal or gemstone content, but combine in a way to heighten their value, and is never based on sentimentality.

Edited by comicwiz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17,864 posts
47 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

These are very good questions to ask, thanks for posting them.

:blush: TY.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17,864 posts
26 minutes ago, Shmoopee said:

Speaking of seven figures I wander of CIS can or will cover my Revival #1 cgc 10 gem mint Signed comic.

The best advice for the question asked that I can offer is to ask for a complete copy of their insurance policy, including any Riders and Umbrella policies, and then ask for a certificate of coverage in your name (ATIMA), and then call the insurance company(ies) to verify active coverage. Then take those policies to your insurance agent for review.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12,797 posts
16 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

The best advice for the question asked that I can offer is to ask for a complete copy of their insurance policy, including any Riders and Umbrella policies, and then ask for a certificate of coverage in your name (ATIMA), and then call the insurance company(ies) to verify active coverage. Then take those policies to your insurance agent for review.

This is good advice. However it will come down to the adjuster handling the claim when the loss occurs. It's very difficult to predict how things will play out, however on only examples items where "like" or "similar" is used to valuate, you have to be vigilant to monitor the market yourself and save any comparables during your ownership.

To provide an example, in the Star Wars toy collecting category, I owned a Kenner Canada version of a MOC which is extremely rare. I was not able to find a single comparable when I tried to add it to my schedule. The dilemma is that an adjuster unaware of the value dynamics and rarity of such a piece would seek a "similar" comparable, and likely use the Kenner US value, which would have put my exposure in a loss situation at 1/6th of what the fair market value would be on my item. The ability to defend a valuation is contingent on proof, and without a single sale to reference, I would lose 9 out of 10 times.

I had offers on the piece to prove the market, but offers are not valid unless they translate to an actual sale, and eventually the offers became more attractive as I weighed out my options. To me the notion of paying insurance to be insufficiently covered makes no sense. The idea that I might not be able to recover the full value was not the only factor in eventually moving the piece, but it's also something I couldn't overlook. 

Edited by comicwiz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 posts
17 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

The best advice for the question asked that I can offer is to ask for a complete copy of their insurance policy, including any Riders and Umbrella policies, and then ask for a certificate of coverage in your name (ATIMA), and then call the insurance company(ies) to verify active coverage. Then take those policies to your insurance agent for review.


I commented about the wrong comic but thank you.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17,864 posts
1 minute ago, comicwiz said:

This is good advice. However it will come down to the adjuster handling the claim when the loss occurs. It's very difficult to predict how things will play out, however on only examples items where "like" or "similar" is used to valuate, you have to be vigilant to monitor the market yourself and save any comparables during your ownership.

To provide an example, in the Star Wars toy collecting category, I owned a Kenner Canada version of a MOC which is extremely rare. I was not able to find a single comparable when I tried to add it to my schedule. The dilemma is that an adjuster unaware of the value dynamics and rarity of such a piece would seek a "similar" comparable, and likely use the Kenner US value, which would have put my exposure in a loss situation at 1/6th of what the fair market value would be on my item. The ability to defend a valuation is contingent on proof, and without a single sale to reference, I would lose 9 out of 10 times.

I had offers on the piece to prove the market, but offers are not valid unless they translate to an actual sale, and eventually the offers became more attractive as I weighed out my options. To me the notion of paying insurance to be insufficiently covered makes no sense. The idea that I might not be able to recover the full value was not the only factor in eventually moving the piece, but it's also something I couldn't overlook. 

In general, a good synopsis of the "settlement" process. There is an option available, a stated value Rider and accompanied Umbrella. It is not that expensive, and is VERY useful when the item falls in the rare to ultra rare category. The adjuster has a boss....the attorney. The loss payee has another tool, a cost of defense Rider(no Umbrella). In certain States, that is a give me the money calling card.

But, all that is beside the point and the thrust of your comments is the gold standard: due diligence. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17,864 posts
6 minutes ago, Shmoopee said:


I commented about the wrong comic but thank you.

 

I am not a comics guy, so no problem. But, my reply to anybody about any type of potential coverage would be the same.

Your roof leaks. You call the roofer because there is an ad in the paper that the entity (self employed or Corp. or partnership....doesn't matter) is bonded and insured. You do a bit of google search. Looks good sounds good. The entity repairs your roof. You pay, say thank you and goodbye.

The roof leaks again. Valuables are now destroyed. A question: does your Homeowners policy cover?  Does your mortgage company know about the original leak? Did you notify your insurance carrier? Did you obtain an ATIMA certificate from the roofer and verify coverage? What would you do if the loss is secondary damage due to a primary event? Is the first leak at fault for the loss, or is the 2nd leak repair at fault for the loss?

An adjuster arrives. He has in tow a roofing inspector. The finding is that the entire roof should have been repaired, and also the original repair is faulty workmanship, because it should have addressed the entire roof. You are furious. You call the roofing company. You did not get a copy of the policy. Turns out you are covered for the value of the original repair. You even signed a "Contract" that the cost of a repair is limited to the original repair and SF. You then find out the insurance policy has certain limitations: $ amount and type of work. You call the State. Turns out the roofer does indeed have a Contractor's license and a "Bond" that covers certain losses, such as the amount you paid if the work was not completed, or the down payment you made and the Contractor then disappears. As to your loss? The State answer: Not our problem.

Insurance is fun. Oh, I almost forgot....you are now on the hook to the Mortgage company. Read your Mortgage papers...those 5,287 pieces of paper you received at settlement and have no idea where you put them. You did not notify them of the loss and/or damage to THEIR property. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
798 posts

Do insurance companies knowingly tell untruths about what is covered?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39,599 posts
11,027 posts

This thread is both enlightening and disheartening :frown:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 posts
1 minute ago, TheWatcher said:

This thread is both enlightening and disheartening :frown:

And terrifying if something goes wrong with a person's collectibles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26,582 posts
On 3/22/2018 at 11:08 AM, comicwiz said:

Sorry to hear Sharon. As a general statement, and not minimize the loss, but jewelry appraisals are usually what we refer to as "fluffy."

When I asked for an appraisal on several pieces I had appraised last year, I walked up to the jeweler and told him I didn't want a "fluffy" appraisal. He knew exactly what I was referring to and based it on fair market value principles.

A good measure of how valid the insured value would be relative to what someone might pay is to walk into a jeweler and ask them what they would pay for that particular piece.

Unfortunately one of the more common things you will hear is that an appraisal on jewelery is valued at somewhere between 10-30% of what the market would actually pay, but that's also an indication of the profit margin a retailer would be comfortable paying to justify adding it in their showroom or showcase.

And it's not to undermine such appraisals, as they can be complex, and do need to factor in actual cost to replace the piece with local labour, expertise, access to materials, etc.

Conversely, when I'm writing an insurance appraisal on a collectible which has shown a pattern of appreciating in value, the back-up used to validate that number is on a lot stronger ground to get full value, and in cases where the appraisal is dated, to receive an update which assures the insured will receive full value at the time of the loss.

There are certainly examples in fine jewelery markets of rare rings, necklaces, bracelets, that markedly appreciate in value year after year, but those generally have a lot more going for them in the areas of provenenance, history, and age, that works to not only store value beyond the precious metal or gemstone content, but combine in a way to heighten their value, and is never based on sentimentality.

I just ask for an appraisal for what I pay at the time. That's why I buy replacement value. Our house was robbed many years ago, that replacement value saved us a lot of trouble. That was the only other time I lost jewelry. My grandmother had just died and all of her things (that I had been given) were stolen, plus anything else I had.

Since then the only thing I ever lost was that bracelet. It was the value of the gold that had gone up. I think I bought it when gold was around $100 an ounce, I don't remember, but it was at least $500 when it was stolen.

This insurance thing on comics is scary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 posts
9 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

This insurance thing on comics is scary.

That is why I prefer my comics to stay in a plastic holder like the ones cgc uses and sells. Also I see people on e Bay selling hundreds of boxes full of comics and it makes sad how they don't or can't take care of something so delicate and fragile.

Edited by Shmoopee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11,027 posts
35 minutes ago, Shmoopee said:

And terrifying if something goes wrong with a person's collectibles.

Without a doubt (thumbsu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
5 5