Ava DuVernay's New Gods 0

[Bosco685]

14 minutes ago, drotto said:

Spoiler

I do not hate all the DCUE.  I loved WW, I really liked Aquaman, and the Snyder Cut of JL is entertaining. Not DCEU, but I really liked Snyder's Watchman, which I know is not a very popular opinion.  I always forget The hulk film was sorta retroactively the first MCEU film, and have never seen it. But even if you consider the Hulk and CA as minor failures, that is amazing considering 22 films have come out (I may be 1 or 2 off). I also do not discount that Whedon (despite his current fall from grace), absolutely killed it with the Avenger movie. He was the right person at the right time, and that film made the general public get it, that wow this it what they had planned all along, that was really cool. Everything led up to that panning shot when the team officially formed, and it is still the most iconic single Marvel shot. WB has failed to create their own formula and create that ah ha moment with the public, that single moment where everything came together. For me the Wonder Woman shot standing with the shield in No Man's Land came close for the DCUE, but that is more a character moment, not a franchise moment.

 

WB biggest mistake has been trying so hard not to be Marvel, that they have never figured out how to be DC on film. I think Nolan did that with his Batman, and despite of his friendship with Snyder and signing off on his stuff, the change in tone and direction from Nolan directing and writing is dramatic. 

Spoiler

 

As for the new SS movie, I am cautiously optimistic about it. I like James Gunn and the trailers have been solid. At the same time, the marketing seems to be presenting this film as its own, new thing and not really a sequel to the first film. This is going to be a Gunn film, just like Guardians is a Gunn film.  Being that, I am not sure it is going to be a good templet for the entire DCUE, because only Gunn is Gunn.  DC needs to find its own voice, that at the same time leaves room for each film to still be its own thing within boundaries.  That also is part of the Marvel success. 

 

 

The 'divisive formula' that you noted not liking was WB/DC trying not to just copy Marvel Studios. But then critics and well-distributed bloggers demanded so loudly that WB/DC was missing the boat after BVS came out, the studio caved to those demands and started forcing itself to - you guessed it - copying Marvel Studios.

The biggest mistake from WB other than its ignorance about letting the comic book division run itself as a studio is the marketing. If it had come out of the gate with the Multiverse message along with clarifying what Zack Snyder was designing was the Elseworlds side of the Worlds of DC because everyone had seen Superman and Batman previously in 70-90's films and now it was time to change things up - huge difference on what the audience should expect. WB Marketing has been a huge weakness in all these films other than the new Suicide Squad. Add to this DC Fandom, which was a very wise approach to better connect with movie-goers that wasn't there before.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Bosco685

[drotto]

3 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

The 'divisive formula' that you noted not liking was WB/DC trying not to just copy Marvel Studios. But then critics and well-distributed bloggers demanded so loudly that WB/DC was missing the boat after BVS came out, the studios caved to those demands and started forcing itself to - you guessed it - attempting to copy Marvel Studios.

The biggest mistake from WB other than its ignorance about letting the comic book division run itself as a studio is the marketing. If it had come out of the gate with the Multiverse message along with clarifying what Zack Snyder was designing was the Elseworlds side of the Worlds of DC because everyone had seen Superman and Batman previously in 70-90's films and now it was time to change things up - huge difference on what the audience should expect. WB Marketing has been a huge weakness in all these films other than the new Suicide Squad. Add to this DC Fandom, which was a very wise approach to better connect with movie-goers that wasn't there before.

You can't deny that what Snyder was doing was the anti-Marvel, if not by design, but definitely in execution. A dark gritty universe with few jokes actively avoiding quippy humor so prevalent in the MCU and practically invented by Whedon.  Also avoiding, to a large extent, doing solo films first leading to the big team film. But yes, after BvS, WB bowed to the fans and critics and tried to after the fact recreate the Marvel formula. That was jarring, and succeeded in alienating fans of their original approach, and allowing them to become a punching bag for marvel fans, because they needed to try an emulate marvel to succeed (which I do not believe). Thus, the jumbled mess. In retrospect, I applaud WB trying to be different, but think they would have been better served admitting that building to the big team showdown similar to how Marvel did, was not Marvel film making, but rather smart film making.  If they wanted to keep with the darker more serious tone, I think it could have worked. 

[Bosco685]

3 minutes ago, drotto said:

You can't deny that what Snyder was doing was the anti-Marvel, if not by design, but definitely in execution. A dark gritty universe with few jokes actively avoiding quippy humor so prevalent in the MCU and practically invented by Whedon.  Also avoiding, to a large extent, doing solo films first leading to the big team film. But yes, after BvS, WB bowed to the fans and critics and tried to after the fact recreate the Marvel formula. That was jarring, and succeeded in alienating fans of their original approach, and allowing them to become a punching bag for marvel fans, because they needed to try an emulate marvel to succeed (which I do not believe). Thus, the jumbled mess. In retrospect, I applaud WB trying to be different, but think they would have been better served admitting that building to the big team showdown similar to how Marvel did, was not Marvel film making, but rather smart film making.  If they wanted to keep with the darker more serious tone, I think it could have worked. 

It's an opinion. I recognize you have one.

But assuming going for solo films first leading to the massive team event ignores the success of other fantasy franchises such as Star Wars, Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings where no solo films were necessary. Just solid storytelling and rationale why these entertaining individuals coming together leads to an even more entertaining tale in the end.

Better to not assume THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE STORYTELLING APPROACH!

[drotto]

1 minute ago, Bosco685 said:

It's an opinion. I recognize you have one.

But assuming going for solo films first leading to the massive team event ignores the success of other fantasy franchises such as Star Wars, Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings where no solo films were necessary. Just solid storytelling and rationale why these entertaining individuals coming together leads to an even more entertaining tale in the end.

Better to not assume THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE STORYTELLING APPROACH!

I agree, but there is a commonality to those films. None of the films you mentioned had any of these characters established as solo characters first.  When you look at Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, they have a long and established solo history, that does not rely on other characters. The general public views them as solo heroes and not team players based on existing comics, TV shows, and movies.  In Star Wars, LOTR, and HP, all these characters were introduced together as pieces of a larger puzzle from the start, they have never shown any ability to stand alone. In fact the one solo adventure for Solo (the general public has no knowledge of comics and Star Wars books) failed, and I doubt any of the other characters from those franchises would fair any better at this point. The public has certain established expectations. So when you have what the public sees as solo characters together, they expect some sort of logic why they are coning together.  So yes, there are countless ways to tell and structure a story, but sometimes you need to understand public perception and take that into account.  This ties back into your observation about WB marketing failure in the DCUE, they never made the public understand why these characters needed to team up. Thus leading to the fans and critics the approach of starting with the team movie.

 

This even extends to the comic world.  In general with some noteworthy exceptions (Spider-Man and Justice League), Marvel is more known for its hero teams, and DC more for its Heroes. Maybe this means the approach should have been reversed on film.  :P

[Bosco685]

4 minutes ago, drotto said:

I agree, but there is a commonality to those films. None of the films you mentioned had any of these characters established as solo characters first.  When you look at Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, they have a long and established solo history, that does not rely on other characters. The general public views them as solo heroes and not team players based on existing comics, TV shows, and movies.  In Star Wars, LOTR, and HP, all these characters were introduced together as pieces of a larger puzzle from the start, they have never shown any ability to stand alone. In fact the one solo adventure for Solo (the general public has no knowledge of comics and Star Wars books) failed, and I doubt any of the other characters from those franchises would fair any better at this point. The public has certain established expectations. So when you have what the public sees as solo characters together, they expect some sort of logic why they are coning together.  So yes, there are countless ways to tell and structure a story, but sometimes you need to understand public perception and take that into account.  This ties back into your observation about WB marketing failure in the DCUE, they never made the public understand why these characters needed to team up. Thus leading to the fans and critics the approach of starting with the team movie.

 

This even extends to the comic world.  In general with some noteworthy exceptions (Spider-Man and Justice League), Marvel is more known for its hero teams, and DC more for its Heroes. Maybe this means the approach should have been reversed on film.  :P

I am sure you believe this, as you state it with such conviction.

• Marvel: X-Men, The Avengers, Fantastic Four
• DC: Batman, Green Lantern, Superman, Wonder Woman

Come on now. You just post these things without completely thinking it through, right? 

[Bosco685]

New Gods: Tom King Opens Up About His and Ava DuVernay's Canceled DC Film

Quote

Comic book writer Tom King has revealed whether he thinks his canceled New Gods -script he co-wrote with Ava DuVernay could be revived now that there is new leadership at DC Studios.

 

"Ah, I mean, anything's possible," he said in an exclusive interview with CBR. "I love that -script. I loved working with Ava. It was an absolute joy. She's a genius storyteller. You absolutely never know. I don't want to close any doors. Right now, I'm just so incredibly busy. I have so much on my plate. It'd be hard to see taking on a whole movie right now. But that -script has never been read. The movie was taken off the docket because it conflicted with the plans they had at the time. So who knows? When new plans come, maybe new opportunities will arise. That's complete speculation. I have absolutely no knowledge. I'd love to work with Ava again. She was a joy."

 

[Gatsby77]

On 3/15/2018 at 7:16 PM, paperheart said:

it's WB, i wouldn't mark my calendar.  i'm at the theater waiting for the doors to open for the first showing of The Flash starring Ezra Miller

Prophetic.

[Key Largo Comics]

New Gods, Forever People, Mister Miracle books etc. are so cheap right now.

[Bosco685]