Art Prices 3 3

[PhilipB2k17]

1 hour ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

This!

if I had a choice between a very nice McSpidey page for $30K or comparable Kirby FF page for the same price, well, I wouldn’t even give the Kirby page any consideration.  

Kirby all the way. 

Adding: I believe Todd Mcfarlane himself would question your preference. 

Edited March 19, 2018 by PhilipB2k17

[Bronty]

4 minutes ago, pemart1966 said:

Anyone have a photo of this?

[PhilipB2k17]

24 minutes ago, vodou said:

The Don Heck Marvel trajectory proves it. Only when Kirby and the other artists that preceded him on hot titles got too expensive, relative to Heck that followed them, did Heck prices start moving up. To catch up, to close the ratio gap. I've yet to meet the collector that wants Heck for Heck. He's a poor man's substitute for somebody else (that's earlier, better, and most importantly much more expensive). Unless you go back to his pre-Marvel horror. That's a different matter.

Burkey buying Romita in lieu of (overpriced relatively speaking) Ditko was the same case. And that's how clunky Ross Andru ASM got "hot", the Romita market closed the gap on Ditko. One could make this point using so many examples, it's your basic rising tide lifts all boats situation.

Where's all the heat for non-Trimpe Hulk? I mean since Trimpe is so awesome as an artist in his own right 'n all...yeah?!

There’s a moderate amount of heat for Sal Buscema Hulk, and now McFarlane and Keown Hulk. 

McFarlane just because you can’t buy a reasonably priced Spider-Man, and nobody wants Spawn. 

Erik Larsen is a big Trimpe Hulk fan. So he’s also kind of pushed that market higher. 

[pemart1966]

8 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Thanks for posting!  Anyone know the story as to how this particular cover survived?

Edited March 19, 2018 by pemart1966

[PhilipB2k17]

Look, I respect Romita and his accomplishments. I am not here to denigrate him at all. I just think his art values are going through a bubble. 

[PhilipB2k17]

1 hour ago, delekkerste said:

I doubt it.  I think it's hot now, being a fairly recent memorable run, but, I don't think it will have the staying power of the classics that reached a much larger audience across generations.  

It really doesn't matter to me, one way or another. I'm not buying any of that stuff.

[JadeGiant]

23 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

There’s a moderate amount of heat for Sal Buscema Hulk, and now McFarlane and Keown Hulk. 

McFarlane just because you can’t buy a reasonably priced Spider-Man, and nobody wants Spawn. 

Erik Larsen is a big Trimpe Hulk fan. So he’s also kind of pushed that market higher. 

There are a number of Trimpe Hulk fans out there in addition to Erik that drive the market even more than he does. When Trimpe Hulk pages come up, they often sell above market and get sucked into black holes. Trust me, I know. 

[PhilipB2k17]

1 minute ago, JadeGiant said:

There are a number of Trimpe Hulk fans out there in addition to Erik that drive the market even more than he does. When Trimpe Hulk pages come up, they often sell above market and get sucked into black holes. Trust me, I know. 

True, but Erik is very high profile and as an artist he kind of gives his artistic impramator on Trimpe.

I'm a situational Trimpe fan. I would love to have a Trimpe Godzilla page. But, I'm pretty "meh" on the rest of his ouvre.

[JadeGiant]

53 minutes ago, vodou said:

The Don Heck Marvel trajectory proves it. Only when Kirby and the other artists that preceded him on hot titles got too expensive, relative to Heck that followed them, did Heck prices start moving up. To catch up, to close the ratio gap. I've yet to meet the collector that wants Heck for Heck. He's a poor man's substitute for somebody else (that's earlier, better, and most importantly much more expensive). Unless you go back to his pre-Marvel horror. That's a different matter.

Burkey buying Romita in lieu of (overpriced relatively speaking) Ditko was the same case. And that's how clunky Ross Andru ASM got "hot", the Romita market closed the gap on Ditko. One could make this point using so many examples, it's your basic rising tide lifts all boats situation.

Where's all the heat for non-Trimpe Hulk? I mean since Trimpe is so awesome as an artist in his own right 'n all...yeah?!

Are you saying that Heck drawing ASM in place of JR SR would mean that ASM art would sell at the same price is it is currently? Not sure if that was your point but, if so, I heartily disagree.

 

Are you saying that the rising tide is completely attributable to the ASM title? I would disagree with this as well as that tide is driven in part to the writing and art during the period.

 

I am not trying to be disagreeable and maybe I am missing the point. I will contend that John Romita Sr. is an all time great Marvel artist. You can say that he benefited from drawing a flagship character for so long and I will not disagree. I will say that ASM and Marvel are extremely fortunate to have his considerable skills on display on their flagship book for such a long, iconic period. I would say that his expertise greatly helped in the ASM rising tide (as did Ditko before him).

[JadeGiant]

4 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

True, but Erik is very high profile and as an artist he kind of gives his artistic impramator on Trimpe.

I'm a situational Trimpe fan. I would love to have a Trimpe Godzilla page. But, I'm pretty "meh" on the rest of his ouvre.

Agreed, I am very familiar with Erik's love of Herb's art and he is probably the most knowledgeable on his iconic run on the Hulk (he absolutely blew me away at a dinner last year at his ability to know almost everything about any issue during the run). I think my point was more along the line as he doesn't buy/trade for Herb's art as much as he once did. 

I would love to add a Godzilla and Shogun Warrior pages to my collection. I feel very fortunate to have a few scraps in the way of Hulk pages that fell from the table where the big boys eat. 

[Bronty]

6 minutes ago, JadeGiant said:

Are you saying that Heck drawing ASM in place of JR SR would mean that ASM art would sell at the same price is it is currently? Not sure if that was your point but, if so, I heartily disagree.

 

Are you saying that the rising tide is completely attributable to the ASM title? I would disagree with this as well as that tide is driven in part to the writing and art during the period.

 

I am not trying to be disagreeable and maybe I am missing the point. I will contend that John Romita Sr. is an all time great Marvel artist. You can say that he benefited from drawing a flagship character for so long and I will not disagree. I will say that ASM and Marvel are extremely fortunate to have his considerable skills on display on their flagship book for such a long, iconic period. I would say that his expertise greatly helped in the ASM rising tide (as did Ditko before him).

Heck can be pretty rough, but the point being made is if say, Russ Heath (who is better than Romita I would argue) had been the longtime spidey artist, the number of Heath fans would be ten-fold and so would the prices be on his art.

Please tell me why or how Romita is a better artist than Heath.    He's not.    Both are skilled artists.    One has a much bigger rep because he worked for the right company on the right title.

Or, if Heck had drawn Hulk 180/181 instead of Trimpe, the values wouldn't change there either.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Bronty

[vodou]

3 minutes ago, JadeGiant said:

Are you saying that Heck drawing ASM in place of JR SR would mean that ASM art would sell at the same price is it is currently? Not sure if that was your point but, if so, I heartily disagree.

 

Are you saying that the rising tide is completely attributable to the ASM title? I would disagree with this as well as that tide is driven in part to the writing and art during the period.

 

I am not trying to be disagreeable and maybe I am missing the point. I will contend that John Romita Sr. is an all time great Marvel artist. You can say that he benefited from drawing a flagship character for so long and I will not disagree. I will say that ASM and Marvel are extremely fortunate to have his considerable skills on display on their flagship book for such a long, iconic period. I would say that his expertise greatly helped in the ASM rising tide (as did Ditko before him).

All I'm really trying to say, which is just repeating Bronty actually, is that the demand (and thus prices) are due to the character/title combination and then the relative ranking inside that by artistic run. This is proven constantly by all the non-whatever art by these artists. Sure it sells and it sells for more than nothing, but the heat is on the title and character not the artist.

Who's paying Trimpe Hulk prices for comparable anything Trimpe non-Hulk? Nobody. Romita ASM prices for anything Romita non-ASM? Nobody. Etc etc.

[Bronty]

10 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Heck can be pretty rough, but the point being made is if say, Russ Heath (who is better than Romita I would argue) had been the longtime spidey artist, the number of Heath fans would be ten-fold and so would the prices be on his art.

Please tell me why or how Romita is a better artist than Heath.    He's not.    Both are skilled artists.    One has a much bigger rep because he worked for the right company on the right title.

Or, if Heck had drawn Hulk 180/181 instead of Trimpe, the values wouldn't change there either.

Here's a Heath Sea Devils page from an early appearance in Showcase in 1960.   IMO its a lovely page as far as Sea Devils go.    It sold for 4k.

If this was a comparable page from a long Heath Spiderman run, it would be 20, 30, 40k... not 4k. 

Anyways.   I should do something more productive than debate the obvious!

[PhilipB2k17]

28 minutes ago, JadeGiant said:

Are you saying that Heck drawing ASM in place of JR SR would mean that ASM art would sell at the same price is it is currently? Not sure if that was your point but, if so, I heartily disagree.

 

Are you saying that the rising tide is completely attributable to the ASM title? I would disagree with this as well as that tide is driven in part to the writing and art during the period.

 

I am not trying to be disagreeable and maybe I am missing the point. I will contend that John Romita Sr. is an all time great Marvel artist. You can say that he benefited from drawing a flagship character for so long and I will not disagree. I will say that ASM and Marvel are extremely fortunate to have his considerable skills on display on their flagship book for such a long, iconic period. I would say that his expertise greatly helped in the ASM rising tide (as did Ditko before him).

I am not so sure that if Heck is the one drawing all those iconic stories that he doesn't get a lot of the love Romtia Sr. is getting. Pretty sure he would get a pretty big chunk of it. The vast majority of Romita's cache is that he was the Spider-Man artist during that run. He was not the plotter or writer that Ditko was, though.

He's the Roger Moore of Spider-Man artists. Reliable; did a great job with the character; perfectly suited to the times. He had a nice long run on some memorable storylines. Some people, who grew up on him, even like him better than the original guy (or anyone else). But, objectively, he's not anywhere as good as the original guy, who set the standard.

That would make McFarlane, I guess, the Daniel Craig of Spider-Man artists.

Edited March 19, 2018 by PhilipB2k17

[PhilipB2k17]

17 minutes ago, vodou said:

All I'm really trying to say, which is just repeating Bronty actually, is that the demand (and thus prices) are due to the character/title combination and then the relative ranking inside that by artistic run. This is proven constantly by all the non-whatever art by these artists. Sure it sells and it sells for more than nothing, but the heat is on the title and character not the artist.

Who's paying Trimpe Hulk prices for comparable anything Trimpe non-Hulk? Nobody. Romita ASM prices for anything Romita non-ASM? Nobody. Etc etc.

In fairness, that's true for most artists. Nobody's paying Ditko Spider-Man prices for Question pages, as great as those may be.

Likewise, You can get Dave Gibbons Green Lantern pages for a few hundred bucks. Try paying that for a Watchman page.

[Bronty]

8 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

In fairness, that's true for most artists. Nobody's paying Ditko Spider-Man prices for Question pages, as great as those may be.

Likewise, You can get Dave Gibbons Green Lantern pages for a few hundred bucks. Try paying that for a Watchman page.

Of course.  

Nobody's paying Barks Ducks prices for Barks landscapes either.    

But if someone else had written and drawn those Barks stories, they'd be utterly forgettable (because 95% of those Dell comics were and are).   

Not so with Romita.    Him you could have substituted with another capable tradesman with little to no net effect on the books.    Which is why Barks is great, and Romita is good.    

Romita, at the end of the day, was a simply good (but not great) artist in the right place at the right time.    Nothing more, nothing less.

And the Marvel Zombies might get their panties in a bunch over that, but its the truth.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Bronty

[PhilipB2k17]

2 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Of course.  

Nobody's paying Barks Ducks prices for Barks landscapes either.    

But if someone else had written and drawn those Barks stories, they'd be utterly forgettable (because 95% of those Dell comics were and are).   

Not so with Romita.    Him you could have substituted with another capable tradesman.    Which is why Barks is great, and Romita is good.

Barks also wrote the vast majority of those Duck stories. If Romita were also WRITING those iconic Spider-Man stories (rather than Stan Lee, etc) then his acclaim would be more than justified.

[Bronty]

1 minute ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Barks also wrote the vast majority of those Duck stories. If Romita were also WRITING those iconic Spider-Man stories (rather than Stan Lee, etc) then his acclaim would be more than justified.

Absolutely!    Now, that wasn't really possible due to the separation of writing and art chores at Marvel, but nontheless, it is true.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Bronty

[jjonahjameson11]

1 hour ago, Bronty said:

Here's a Heath Sea Devils page from an early appearance in Showcase in 1960.   IMO its a lovely page as far as Sea Devils go.    It sold for 4k.

If this was a comparable page from a long Heath Spiderman run, it would be 20, 30, 40k... not 4k. 

Anyways.   I should do something more productive than debate the obvious!

Heath is a wonderful artist.  Love his stuff on the DC War books and Sea Devils, and his work on the Warren mags in particular, but comparing him to Romita Sr on ASM is apples to oranges because much like Gray Morrow, Heath is a technically proficient artist, but doesn’t quite look right when doing superheroes.  He’s more of an action/adventure type of artist to me.

[Bronty]

9 minutes ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

Heath is a wonderful artist.  Love his stuff on the DC War books and Sea Devils, and his work on the Warren mags in particular, but comparing him to Romita Sr on ASM is apples to oranges because much like Gray Morrow, Heath is a technically proficient artist, but doesn’t quite look right when doing superheroes.  He’s more of an action/adventure type of artist to me.

Yeah, and Romita's more of a romance artist.   See what I did there?

And I'm not just being a smartazz, it also happens to be true.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Bronty