Jim Lee commission prices (WAS Lake Como Comic Art Festival 20-22 April) 4 4

[Mighty Hal]

14 hours ago, Subby1938 said:

Just in from framers I’m very pleased ....😜

Your carpeted walls really help the art stand out. 😀 Congratulations!

[vodou]

29 minutes ago, Hal Turner said:

carpeted walls

Uh uh...blown grey studio foam...to deaden the sound of what's been happening in that room...

[Rick2you2]

On 9/17/2019 at 2:27 PM, alxjhnsn said:

I for one will never criticize how much others spend on commissions. 

I spent $3700, my largest purchase ever, for a drawing (and print) by an artist that has little printed work though he does have a large fan base and a long running web comic.

Even I think it was a little crazy, but I really, really like it. I know that it is worth pennies on the dollar, but I don't care.

I present L'il Legion by Yale Stewart of JL8 fame. There's no doubt that it's a boondoggle; I'll never recover the cost, but it suits me.

My point is, "Tastes and financial circumstances vary." We will never find unanimity on commissions and their prices.
 

 

Alex, 

Before I go on, I think you got a bargain on your piece. You have almost 30 characters, plus background/foreground objects, plus a color version, all pulled together into a unified image that is cleverly done by a good artist. I think that is easily worth $3,700.

 

Regarding the comments on the commission prices in general, I think there are at least 3 different issues which deserve to be looked at separately.

First, when a person really wants something, there is no such thing as overpaying. I have paid more than market price for art, as have others here, but since I keep it forever, market prices are irrelevant. I want what I like and if I can afford it, I will buy it (depending upon how much I like it and the cost). As such, no one should take what they paid as personal criticism. It's great you found something to treasure.

Second, compared to the market price, is $15,000 too high? Well, there seem to be a fair number of people who were/are willing to spend it, so, and in that sense, no, the price was not too high. 

Third, is the market price justified? That is a fair subject which comes up regularly in different contexts (e.g. Sal Buscema). Just not for someone with Lee's stature.  Well, what about comparables? Lee's work, which I characterize as "super-realistic" is excellent--no dispute there. But there are other artists who also draw in that same manner, adding varying degrees of awesomeness, personality, etc. into their art. What do they charge for the same sort of art, and does it makes sense to pay this much for Lee's work--except that it was by Lee? And what about the market price for existing Lee work? How does that compare? To me, and I suspect to a fair number of others, I think $15,000 is high.

Bottom line, Alex, you did well and your money was well spent, IMO. But no, I don't see a justification for spending $15,000 for a commission by Lee (even though his work is excellent).

Edited September 21, 2019 by Rick2you2

[zhamlau]

On 9/19/2019 at 4:11 PM, exitmusicblue said:

Lee also happens to have a day job as a DC exec.

Imagine if he did commissions for 5k a pop.  The queue would be neverending.  He'd need to refuse commissions arbitrarily (then probably would be called a jerk by the gadflies on here).

Folks should think outside-of-the-box on this.

 

To be fair though he could probably knock a unique commission out once a day....making 5000 dollars pre-tax a day is probably pretty good even for him (unless they are paying 2 million+ a year)...Just saying that doesn't seem like a bad way to grind out over a million dollars profit a year sitting at your desk in your office drawing.

[exitmusicblue]

1 minute ago, zhamlau said:

To be fair though he could probably knock a unique commission out once a day....making 5000 dollars pre-tax a day is probably pretty good even for him (unless they are paying 2 million+ a year)...Just saying that doesn't seem like a bad way to grind out over a million dollars profit a year sitting at your desk in your office drawing.

His call, not ours.

[exitmusicblue]

1 hour ago, Rick2you2 said:

Alex, 

Before I go on, I think you got a bargain on your piece. You have almost 30 characters, plus background/foreground objects, plus a color version, all pulled together into a unified image that is cleverly done by a good artist. I think that is easily worth $3,700.

 

Regarding the comments on the commission prices in general, I think there are at least 3 different issues which deserve to be looked at separately.

First, when a person really wants something, there is no such thing as overpaying. I have paid more than market price for art, as have others here, but since I keep it forever, market prices are irrelevant. I want what I like and if I can afford it, I will buy it (depending upon how much I like it and the cost). As such, no one should take what they paid as personal criticism. It's great you found something to treasure.

Second, compared to the market price, is $15,000 too high? Well, there seem to be a fair number of people who were/are willing to spend it, so, and in that sense, no, the price was not too high. 

Third, is the market price justified? That is a fair subject which comes up regularly in different contexts (e.g. Sal Buscema). Just not for someone with Lee's stature.  Well, what about comparables? Lee's work, which I characterize as "super-realistic" is excellent--no dispute there. But there are other artists who also draw in that same manner, adding varying degrees of awesomeness, personality, etc. into their art. What do they charge for the same sort of art, and does it makes sense to pay this much for Lee's work--except that it was by Lee? And what about the market price for existing Lee work? How does that compare? To me, and I suspect to a fair number of others, I think $15,000 is high.

Bottom line, Alex, you did well and your money was well spent, IMO. But no, I don't see a justification for spending $15,000 for a commission by Lee (even though his work is excellent).

If someone pays $15000 for a ASM 300 CGC 9.0, that's not justified.  There's a consensus market value, and the buyer is very much overpaying.

If someone pays $15000 for a commission by Modern Artist X, when the artist's best covers sell for $2500 max, that's likewise tough to justify.  Although (subjective) arguments could be made depending on the nature of the piece.

Lee's best covers (e.g., X-Men #1) command six figures and certain splashes should get close (not an expert on his market).   While I personally wouldn't dole out 15k for a commission by him, I think a diehard fan doing so is justifiable.  It doesn't matter if there are similar artists of comparable or greater technical skill -- yes, his status matters.  That's part of the nature of our hobby.  Many will argue that Wrightson is better technically than Ditko, but we all know there are many factors beyond this that go into pricing.

Now, if 15k were spent on a 20-sec Lee sketch of a character's profile... sure, no justification.  But that isn't the case here.

Ultimately, collectors who commission from Lee who say "It's a great value from the GOAT given all that goes into the experience" -- we don't have to agree with any part of this statement. But likewise, "There's no justifiation" -- is in the eye of the beholder.

[Rick2you2]

5 minutes ago, exitmusicblue said:

Lee's best covers (e.g., X-Men #1) command six figures and certain splashes should get close (not an expert on his market).   While I personally wouldn't dole out 15k for a commission by him, I think a diehard fan doing so is justifiable.  It doesn't matter if there are similar artists of comparable or greater technical skill -- yes, his status matters.  That's part of the nature of our hobby.  Many will argue that Wrightson is better technically than Ditko, but we all know there are many factors beyond this that go into pricing.

You are mixing different issues: no one has to justify their purchase on how they spend their money. If someone wants to spend 15K for reasons of status, that's their business.

But, if Wrightson is better technically than Ditko, that is definitely something which is a subject worthy of discussion. I think it should also be a factor when the value of the art is considered, and may add to everyone's enlightenment here.

Personally, I don't think the two are really comparable because their styles are different. With Ditko, part of what makes his work so well received is the stylized way he drew. Would those early Spider-Man issues be considered as good with Wrightson? I don't think so.

[Twanj]

Listen...

These aren't timeshares or speakers being sold out of the back of a trunk in a parking lot.

No innocents are getting suckered into accidentally paying for a $15k Jim Lee commission, recreation/homage or not.

I'd personally go for the XM 251 Silvestri one if I wasn't more responsible.

[exitmusicblue]

4 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

You are mixing different issues: no one has to justify their purchase on how they spend their money. If someone wants to spend 15K for reasons of status, that's their business.

But, if Wrightson is better technically than Ditko, that is definitely something which is a subject worthy of discussion. I think it should also be a factor when the value of the art is considered, and may add to everyone's enlightenment here.

Personally, I don't think the two are really comparable because their styles are different. With Ditko, part of what makes his work so well received is the stylized way he drew. Would those early Spider-Man issues be considered as good with Wrightson? I don't think so.

It's a fool's errand to talk about justification at all in this case, was my point.

Wrightson-Ditko would make for an interesting topic, but I'd rather just celebrate them both.  My point in invoking them was to address the other-comparable-artists point made.

[Rick2you2]

38 minutes ago, Twanj said:

Listen...

These aren't timeshares or speakers being sold out of the back of a trunk in a parking lot.

No innocents are getting suckered into accidentally paying for a $15k Jim Lee commission, recreation/homage or not.

I'd personally go for the XM 251 Silvestri one if I wasn't more responsible.

Of course not. I wasn't suggesting the buyers were suckered.  

[John E.]

3 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

 

Third, is the market price justified? That is a fair subject which comes up regularly in different contexts (e.g. Sal Buscema). Just not for someone with Lee's stature.  Well, what about comparables? Lee's work, which I characterize as "super-realistic" is excellent--no dispute there. But there are other artists who also draw in that same manner, adding varying degrees of awesomeness, personality, etc. into their art. What do they charge for the same sort of art, and does it makes sense to pay this much for Lee's work--except that it was by Lee? And what about the market price for existing Lee work? How does that compare? To me, and I suspect to a fair number of others, I think $15,000 is high.

This is where it’s hard for me to see your point. I mean I get what you’re saying, I just don’t get it. 

Jim Lee and Jason Shawn Alexander aren’t even on the same level...of legendary status. These collectors aren’t paying Jim Lee because he could draw well, they are paying Lee because it’s Jim Lee. Jim Lee who drew the best selling X-Men comic on which these collectors grew up on. JSA drew...??? I mean I’m reading the equivalent of “Why pay Jack Kirby $15k when you can pay Sal Buscema $1500 for something just as well.” It’s not about the art, it’s about the artist (and their style.) 

As far as the high cost of Jim Lee’s commission, the standard pricing of a *new* JIm Lee cover is $25k which people happily pony up. Albert has sold better, modern covers for $40-$50k. So selling commissions for $1k doesn’t make economic sense for the businessmen. $15k sounds about right for cover quality. And if they get picked up as a variant, now it’s a $25k piece. 

 

[dichotomy]

It’s also worth mentioning the obvious care and attention Jim Lee puts into the commissions, as born out by his social media/twitch feeds. He really enjoys working on them and exploring/growing as an artist. I believe Albert told @Nexus that there was only ever one commission that the buyer expressed unhappiness with, and that image went on to become an epic cover in its own right. As mentioned Jim Lee is a busy exec at DC so that lends added value to his TIME. And he has a large family that he devotes time to. And he visits every Walmart in America weekly to hide the Marvel mags. Every person who okays the quote from Albert is, I believe, happy to do so. 

[Rick2you2]

3 hours ago, Jay Olie Espy said:

This is where it’s hard for me to see your point. I mean I get what you’re saying, I just don’t get it. 

Jim Lee and Jason Shawn Alexander aren’t even on the same level...of legendary status. These collectors aren’t paying Jim Lee because he could draw well, they are paying Lee because it’s Jim Lee. Jim Lee who drew the best selling X-Men comic on which these collectors grew up on. JSA drew...??? I mean I’m reading the equivalent of “Why pay Jack Kirby $15k when you can pay Sal Buscema $1500 for something just as well.” It’s not about the art, it’s about the artist (and their style.) 

As far as the high cost of Jim Lee’s commission, the standard pricing of a *new* JIm Lee cover is $25k which people happily pony up. Albert has sold better, modern covers for $40-$50k. So selling commissions for $1k doesn’t make economic sense for the businessmen. $15k sounds about right for cover quality. And if they get picked up as a variant, now it’s a $25k piece. 

 

Take a look at the comments at the beginning of this thread, from last year, and let ask you, why are there so many comments from the opposite prospective as to what is being posted now?

Sal Buscema is not nearly as good as Kirby, and it isn’t just artistic style. It is the quality of the work.

[John E.]

12 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

Take a look at the comments at the beginning of this thread, from last year, and let ask you, why are there so many comments from the opposite prospective as to what is being posted now?

Sal Buscema is not nearly as good as Kirby, and it isn’t just artistic style. It is the quality of the work.

This is where you and I have common ground:

1. We both wouldn’t pay $15K on a Jim Lee commission; 

2. We both (more or less) like the art of Jason Shawn Alexander. I did read The Empty Zone a few years ago. I enjoyed the art, though I don’t remember the story, which probably says something. 

Yes, when commission prices were announced they were a sticker shock. But on the other hand, so are Moy’s prices on Jim’s modern covers. One of my points is that it makes sense that Jim’s commissions are so high because they are proportionate to his published prices. But to your point, I think 99.9% of fans who are priced out of Jim’s rates still shake their head at those prices. I don’t think that’s changed. 

What I’m saying is that this is Jim Lee here. Not some flash-in-the-pan newcomer. So where I get confused is when you say “...it isn’t just artistic style, it’s the quality of work.” Do you feel the commissions are of poor quality? Or, “Why pay Jim 15k to draw Subby when you can pay Jason Shawn Alexander $500 for something just as good.” That’s what I’m not getting. They are not in the same level. 

If Ditko were alive today and he opened a commission list with a $15k cover quality option I think quite a few people would jump on that. Sure it would disappoint a lot of collectors, but that’s his value. And his work would probably not be intricate as Jim’s or Alexander’s.

But more grounded: I’ve not known Alex Ross to ever open a commission list (unless you’re Chip friggin Kidd.) If he did open one, I’d guess it’d be around $15k too. But would you say, “Why pay $15k for Alex Ross when you can commission Mike Mayhew and get the same quality?” Mike Mayhew is great but he’s not Alex Ross. Mike’s painted commissions for a single figure is 5k btw. 

Also, I don’t expect Ross to roll out of bed for less than $15k, but for some reason we expect Jim Lee to.

 

[RS88]

Willy Wonka effect.  Rare opportunity - and priced so it’s not a grind house of $500 commissions to people that would receive mediocre pieces.  Jim offered this to connect with collectors on a personal level - not to get a random 4 or 15k every 3-4 weeks.  Trust me, this is not even a drop in the bucket compared to what deep pocket collectors drop on him for pieces privately.

Limited opportunity from an industry darling and star.  Would I go to the same lengths to get backstage at a Rolling Stones concert? No.  But I understand why people would shell out enormous dollars to share a hash pipe with Keith.   Art is individual and affects everyone differently and obviously Jim & Albert have priced appropriately because people are signing up and joining in.

Don’t like Jim? Save your dollars.

Don’t like the price? Find something else.

I don’t see anyone starting a thread on Dale Eaglesham commission rates because you can probably guess the interest it would garner - regardless if he’s beloved and has a lengthy record of supply at the end of the day.

Nevertheless - naysayers - consider your vote counted - because I don’t think anyone that has gone through this experience really gives a warm damn what you think.

Edited September 22, 2019 by RS88

[exitmusicblue]

1 hour ago, RS88 said:

Willy Wonka effect.  Rare opportunity - and priced so it’s not a grind house of $500 commissions to people that would receive mediocre pieces.  Jim offered this to connect with collectors on a personal level - not to get a random 4 or 15k every 3-4 weeks.  Trust me, this is not even a drop in the bucket compared to what deep pocket collectors drop on him for pieces privately.

Limited opportunity from an industry darling and star.  Would I go to the same lengths to get backstage at a Rolling Stones concert? No.  But I understand why people would shell out enormous dollars to share a hash pipe with Keith.   Art is individual and affects everyone differently and obviously Jim & Albert have priced appropriately because people are signing up and joining in.

Don’t like Jim? Save your dollars.

Don’t like the price? Find something else.

I don’t see anyone starting a thread on Dale Eaglesham commission rates because you can probably guess the interest it would garner - regardless if he’s beloved and has a lengthy record of supply at the end of the day.

Nevertheless - naysayers - consider your vote counted - because I don’t think anyone that has gone through this experience really gives a warm damn what you think.

Aaaand that's checkmate.

[Rick2you2]

10 hours ago, Jay Olie Espy said:

This is where you and I have common ground:

1. We both wouldn’t pay $15K on a Jim Lee commission; 

2. We both (more or less) like the art of Jason Shawn Alexander. I did read The Empty Zone a few years ago. I enjoyed the art, though I don’t remember the story, which probably says something. 

Yes, when commission prices were announced they were a sticker shock. But on the other hand, so are Moy’s prices on Jim’s modern covers. One of my points is that it makes sense that Jim’s commissions are so high because they are proportionate to his published prices. But to your point, I think 99.9% of fans who are priced out of Jim’s rates still shake their head at those prices. I don’t think that’s changed. 

What I’m saying is that this is Jim Lee here. Not some flash-in-the-pan newcomer. So where I get confused is when you say “...it isn’t just artistic style, it’s the quality of work.” Do you feel the commissions are of poor quality? Or, “Why pay Jim 15k to draw Subby when you can pay Jason Shawn Alexander $500 for something just as good.” That’s what I’m not getting. They are not in the same level. 

If Ditko were alive today and he opened a commission list with a $15k cover quality option I think quite a few people would jump on that. Sure it would disappoint a lot of collectors, but that’s his value. And his work would probably not be intricate as Jim’s or Alexander’s.

But more grounded: I’ve not known Alex Ross to ever open a commission list (unless you’re Chip friggin Kidd.) If he did open one, I’d guess it’d be around $15k too. But would you say, “Why pay $15k for Alex Ross when you can commission Mike Mayhew and get the same quality?” Mike Mayhew is great but he’s not Alex Ross. Mike’s painted commissions for a single figure is 5k btw. 

Also, I don’t expect Ross to roll out of bed for less than $15k, but for some reason we expect Jim Lee to.

 

To answer your overarching question, I am less interested than many collectors in the artist than a particular piece. More on that later.

When I wrote “it isn’t just artistic style, it is the quality of the work”, I was trying to refer to the way they express their artistic vision. I can not compare, say, a Bruce Timm piece to something by Wrightson: they are so stylistically different. But, there are similarities between the styles of Buscema and Lee in the sense they try to draw (human) characters as real people with exaggerated physiques. Flourishes you see that an Aparo might include for dramatic effect are not there (even though either one could probably have drawn in the other’s style, based on their skill set). Viewed that way, I consider the work I have seen by Lee far superior. On that point, the market agrees,I think.

About the Lee commissions, the work is excellent. No question there. 

When I buy things, in general, I buy for value received not image presented. If I wanted a sports sedan, I would not consider a BMW, except for the 2 series, and in particular, Hyundai now makes a car which is more highly rated by auto experts than a BMW 3 series sedan even though they are in the same class. Now before you say art isn’t the same as cars: yes, they are. They are both commodities which are bought sold, and traded at different prices (reflected on these boards). That’s why Moy can get $15,000 for a commission for Lee.

If someone won’t roll out of bed for $15,000, they must be dead. In a story several years ago, a journalist sent checks for 1 dollar to various famous and rich people. Most didn’t cash them. One who did was Donald Trump.

I think there are artists who have similar styles to Lee, who might or might not arguably be as good, but are not “Jim friggin Lee”. If their work is 1/4 the price of Lee’s work, that’s what I would buy. That is also a subject which might make a good thread.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Rick2you2

[Rick2you2]

4 hours ago, exitmusicblue said:

Aaaand that's checkmate.

Note my recent comment above. Same response.

[vodou]

In large part, the latest round of back n forth which I'm not interested in playing with, ends up at: you see the image as worth $ based on professionalism/competence and then the rest is "Jim Lee's signature" (= $15k - $).

I dunno, I think $ probably -in a blind taste test- is going to be about the same for most collectors that have been around for a few years. But "Jim Lee's signature" is going to be worth much more (to the point of even the whole $15k...making the art itself thus "free"!) to those born after 1980 (let's say) than those before. Shoot...John Byrne...you couldn't find anybody over the age of 25 in the early 1980s that could take his work seriously, his sales numbers -oh yes! but the art...no, not when put up against Kirby, Ditko, Eisner, Kane, Infantino, Foster, Ingels, blahblahblah. Same story. And look where we are today re: "them" vs Byrne. It all balances out. The older generation's heroes don't have to kill the newer generation's heroes to remain heroes. Or vice versa. They can all be heroes.

Edited September 22, 2019 by vodou
typo

[Rick2you2]

21 minutes ago, vodou said:

Shoot...John Byrne...you couldn't find anybody over the age of 25 in the early 1980s that could take his work seriously, his sales numbers -oh yes! but the art...no, not when put up against Kirby, Ditko, Eisner, Kane, Infantino, Foster, Ingels, blahblahblah.

Well, I took his work seriously. This is from Byrne as penciller and Rubinstein as inker in 1980 (before Byrne did his own inking). I had him do it at a convention, and I was over 25 at the time. I also wanted Sienkewicz, who was also there, but he wasn't doing sketches at the time (I think it may have been during his first full year at Marvel). This was Byrne's first request for a Phantom Stranger (he told me at the time). Let me add that one day, Alexander will be a star.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Rick2you2