Lifespan of a GA Comic in a new CGC Holder 0

[newshane]

On 4/1/2018 at 10:55 AM, Wayne-Tec said:

Hey guys,

The new CGC slabs are stronger, more durable than previous incarnations. We were once told to submit books for reholdering every X-years to replace microchamber paper, am I correct that is no longer the case? Do we know why?

My main question though: If a GA book sits in a new CGC slab with minimal handling, what is the longest period of time it would be safe to remain there without getting reholdered?

Does anyone have original 2001-2002 era slabs? Have you noticed any changes in the book or does it look identical to when it was originally slabbed?

If you kept a GA book in a new CGC slab (say it was graded today), would we notice anything detrimental to the book if it sat for 20, 30, 40+ years?

The book will age better than you will and will be very likely around after all of us are gone. 

[newshane]

9 hours ago, N e r V said:

So if I’m understanding this correctly the best way to store CGC books is in this position?

 

Spines on the ground?

I've actually done research on this...provided a big write-up on storage methods. 

The CGC's official stance is that the books should be stored upright and vertical. 

Some people believe that storing them with "spines on the ground" will protect books with an overhang from greater damage due to the impact of gravity over time. 

Cliffnotes version - they are fine either way. 

For more detailed information, you can look up my post. I just got called for a conference, so I have to cut this short! 

[telerites]

4 hours ago, newshane said:

I've actually done research on this...provided a big write-up on storage methods. 

The CGC's official stance is that the books should be stored upright and vertical. 

Some people believe that storing them with "spines on the ground" will protect books with an overhang from greater damage due to the impact of gravity over time. 

Cliffnotes version - they are fine either way. 

For more detailed information, you can look up my post. I just got called for a conference, so I have to cut this short! 

If I remember you did research on the waterproofness of a slab.  Alas, they aren't - I enjoyed the pics and commentary of that thread 

[jimbo_7071]

2 hours ago, telerites said:

If I remember you did research on the waterproofness of a slab.  Alas, they aren't - I enjoyed the pics and commentary of that thread 

They do have some water resistance; when the Greg Manning basement flooded, many books, including some Mile Highs, were ruined; most of the slabbed books came out unscathed.

[telerites]

1 hour ago, jimbo_7071 said:

They do have some water resistance; when the Greg Manning basement flooded, many books, including some Mile Highs, were ruined; most of the slabbed books came out unscathed.

Yes, they do.   IIRC, newshane soaked one in a bathtub.  It was water resistant to a certain degree but not waterproof which is to be expected since the slab is designed to breathe.  But I would obviously prefer to have a slabbed book ride through a flood as opposed to a raw.  

Apologies for taking the thread off track.

[Randall Dowling]

On 4/15/2018 at 2:19 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

By the way, this book used to be a 9.2. It is now a 7.5 because, in the original holder, there was room for the pages to tear away from the cover. (Note the tearing at the upper staple.)

This is a heartbreaking story!  Such a cool book- I feel your pain, sir.

In response to the OP’s original question, as I look back over collecting comics from the late 70s to now and the storage methods used, the following stands out:

-I remember when 3 mil polyethylene bags became popular.  A lot of books went in those bags.  And some went into those awful 2 mil bags that were reminiscent of Saran Wrap.  Over time, the polyethylene bags turned kind of a nasty yellowish brownish color that worried all of us about what to do.  Then polyester film came along and although it was (and still is) so awesomely clear and shiny, it was relatively expensive (IIRC, a single, rigid Mylar was like $1 and I think 100 pack of bags was $3).  So we only put the most expensive books in Mylar and they were kind of a pain because they didn’t fit in normal boxes very well.  Then mylites came out.  They were a little crinkly but still great archival quality and still relatively expensive (maybe 4 for $1).  Several years later, polypropylene bags hit the market and they quickly replaced polyethylene bags because of their clarity (greatly improved over “foggy” polyethylene bags.  Although they didn’t discolor as much as polyethylene bags did, the polypropylene bags did become more brittle.  A little more than a decade later, CGC debuted its first slabs.

-I’ve removed books out of every one of these enclosures after longer term storage and the only real consistency that I’ve seen isn’t the bags or slabs, it’s storage atmosphere.  Items that went through regular temperature and humid gradients and particularly, those exposed to heat, suffered the worst.  Those stored in constant, cool environments with decent RH faired the best.  I’ve taken books out of crazy old (25-30 years) polyethylene bags, all yellow and nasty and sticky and the books are fresh and bright with blinding white covers and pages, full gloss and luster.  And I’ve taken a few books out of first and second gen slabs with “white pages” that are significant aged.  And I’ve opened older slabs to find fresh books and older Mylar with books that definitely suffered at the top.

-My conclusion to all of this is that I now only use mylite 2s with full backs as that’s probably the best archive value on the market.  Slabs are probably fine, just store them cool, keep them out of the light, and don’t use fireproof safes.  I now believe atmospherics to be the greatest factor in aging paper.  FWIW.

[Wayne-Tec]

I found this thread to be incredibly informative.

Now that the new style CGC slabs have been out for a few years, has anyone noticed any “bowing” that has developed over time?

[Cat-Man_America]

On 4/18/2018 at 11:25 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

I wasn't the owner of the book when the damage occurred; John Verzyl was. I believe he sent it back to CGC in the holder. Matt Nelson handled the removal of the book with an eye towards minimizing the damage.

Missed this thread when it originally posted.  

I discovered the damage to this book when John brought it by with a bunch of others he'd just picked up.  He thought I might be interested in owning another Church Cat-Man.  John hadn't noticed the damage in the holder as he started to describe how much the colors pop.  I seem to recall saying something to the effect of "that's not all that popped" at which point he examined it more closely and realized the book's value had plummeted.  

My recollection is that the book was in one of the very early CGC holders without wedges and no visible barex envelop that I could see.  It appeared to be loose enough to slide slightly from side to side inside the inner well.

[Inaflash]

Heat sealing the book in the inner well is not good for long term storage as there is no place for the gasses released by the aging paper to escape. The micro chamber paper inside the book will definitely help absorb the gasses but still this is why I crack out books that are intended for my personal collection.

Ken 

[buttock]

22 minutes ago, Inaflash said:

Heat sealing the book in the inner well is not good for long term storage as there is no place for the gasses released by the aging paper to escape. The micro chamber paper inside the book will definitely help absorb the gasses but still this is why I crack out books that are intended for my personal collection.

Ken 

The wells in a CGC holder aren't air tight.  There's definitely some impairment of gas exchange, but it can still happen.  If you take a tightly sealed Mylar-2 and a sealed barex holder and squeeze them both you'll see about the same rate of deflation.  Open top mylars solve this problem, but I guarantee you more books have been damaged by the razor's edge of a mylar than have by gas exchange limitation of an inner well.  Most of the chemicals released by the aging of paper don't emit as gases and remain within the paper itself, so gas exchange is pretty low on the spectrum of what we should be concerned about.  In fact, the greater risk to paper is the introduction of chemicals from environmental air that accelerate the process of degradation.  So you could make the case that limiting gas exchange actually preserves paper by slowing chemical degradation.  What we should focus on is maintaining an environment where the books are not exposed to anything that accelerates degradation. 

https://www.loc.gov/preservation/care/deterioratebrochure.html

   

[Randall Dowling]

53 minutes ago, buttock said:

The wells in a CGC holder aren't air tight.  There's definitely some impairment of gas exchange, but it can still happen.  If you take a tightly sealed Mylar-2 and a sealed barex holder and squeeze them both you'll see about the same rate of deflation.  Open top mylars solve this problem, but I guarantee you more books have been damaged by the razor's edge of a mylar than have by gas exchange limitation of an inner well.  Most of the chemicals released by the aging of paper don't emit as gases and remain within the paper itself, so gas exchange is pretty low on the spectrum of what we should be concerned about.  In fact, the greater risk to paper is the introduction of chemicals from environmental air that accelerate the process of degradation.  So you could make the case that limiting gas exchange actually preserves paper by slowing chemical degradation.  What we should focus on is maintaining an environment where the books are not exposed to anything that accelerates degradation. 

https://www.loc.gov/preservation/care/deterioratebrochure.html

   

With respect, this doesn't jibe well with a lot of things I've seen.  The only explanation that made sense to me was that bleaches and other chemicals that newsprint is subjected to during manufacture have always been the central problem.  Maintaining an environment that minimizes the off-gassing and other chemical reactions that are slowly taking place (relatively cool temperatures, lower oxygen, constant RH) has been the recommended strategy for virtually all archival paper storage.

But perhaps there's a new understanding that I missed?  In any case, rather than lean on hypothetical possibilities, I'd rather rely on real world historical examples that have worked.  Not disagreeing with anything on that LOC page, just my 

[buttock]

1 minute ago, Randall Dowling said:

With respect, this doesn't jibe well with a lot of things I've seen.  The only explanation that made sense to me was that bleaches and other chemicals that newsprint is subjected to during manufacture have always been the central problem.  Maintaining an environment that minimizes the off-gassing and other chemical reactions that are slowly taking place (relatively cool temperatures, lower oxygen, constant RH) has been the recommended strategy for virtually all archival paper storage.

But perhaps there's a new understanding that I missed?  In any case, rather than lean on hypothetical possibilities, I'd rather rely on real world historical examples that have worked.  Not disagreeing with anything on that LOC page, just my 

I said several things, so I'm not sure what doesn't jibe.  But the facts are what they are.  I'm not sure what "real world historical examples" you're referring to.  

1) lignin introduced during manufacture is a problem.  Leads to continued degradation and doesn't leave the paper. 

2) acid hydrolysis of the sugar chains leads to degradation.  That's a process that is driven largely by exposure to chemicals in the environment.  This is what we try to control.  Avoid excess humidity (you need some humidity), ambient air, etc.  The constitution stored in a chamber with argon gas, no oxygen.  Again, ambient air isn't your friend, thus the concept of off-gassing and air exchange being incorrect.  

3) natural degradation of the cellulose happens which leads to some acids forming.  

 

So there are more than one issues at play.  You can control for some of them by storage which is vital.  But you can't control for all of them unless you start chemically treating the paper itself.  

[D84]

19 minutes ago, buttock said:

So there are more than one issues at play.  You can control for some of them by storage which is vital.  But you can't control for all of them unless you start chemically treating the paper itself.  

Chemically treating the paper may be good for preservation of the comic, but you might get a dreaded purple label.🤣🤣🤣

[steelcity]

I have GA CGC books graded as early as 2000. As has already been said, the original slabs did allow minimal book movement and so will always need careful handling. Also, early CGC labels can have slight rippling, probably caused by ink jet printing and the top label strip can be prone to curl up slightly. For me early CGC books are especially appealing as a nostalgic reminder of those exciting days when it all began.

Edited February 2, 2021 by steelcity

[cheetah]

I can attest to the early slabs bowing.  I had a few SA and BA books where the bowing was noticeable; much more severe than the example earlier in the thread.  They were bowed enough that I was concerned about potential damage to the spine.

I also recall that book damage in the earliest slabs could be severe, especially in books with an overhang.  I think CGC had a rapid response when this was first reported because it really shook the basis of their business plan.  Early on in my collecting, I got books in early slabs that did not seem to warrant the grade.

[Albert Thurgood]

On 4/2/2018 at 8:42 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

The only time I've ever noticed changes to books is when I kept some in Mylar sleeves open at the top; with those books, I noticed some darkening along the top edge (after ~20 years).

This is an interesting thread. The first threads I read when I joined recently were discussing best bags and boards for long term storage. I think one of the arguments was that it was better to leave bags open so that any gasses released could escape from the bag. It makes sense not to have those gasses trapped in an enclosed bag. I assume you stored these in a box with a lid to protect from light, so it is still a question whether to leave the mylar bags open or not.

FWIW I also agree with @Randall Dowling that heat is a big contributor to browning.

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Albert Thurgood

[jimbo_7071]

On 2/1/2021 at 1:10 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

Missed this thread when it originally posted.  

I discovered the damage to this book when John brought it by with a bunch of others he'd just picked up.  He thought I might be interested in owning another Church Cat-Man.  John hadn't noticed the damage in the holder as he started to describe how much the colors pop.  I seem to recall saying something to the effect of "that's not all that popped" at which point he examined it more closely and realized the book's value had plummeted.  

My recollection is that the book was in one of the very early CGC holders without wedges and no visible barex envelop that I could see.  It appeared to be loose enough to slide slightly from side to side inside the inner well.

It was slabbed for the Nicholas Cage auction in October of 2002 with the provenance noted on the label, so the holder shouldn't have been too early, but apparently they didn't have a great process in place for esuring a proper fit.

This book can slide around inside the holder as well.

I plan to get it re-holdered, but it will have to wait until I decide to drive to Sarasota. I don't trust sending it in the mail. (I haven't been outside of Michigan since 2014, so it might be a while.)

[Cat-Man_America]

2 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

It was slabbed for the Nicholas Cage auction in October of 2002 with the provenance noted on the label, so the holder shouldn't have been too early, but apparently they didn't have a great process in place for esuring a proper fit.

This book can slide around inside the holder as well.

I plan to get it re-holdered, but it will have to wait until I decide to drive to Sarasota. I don't trust sending it in the mail. (I haven't been outside of Michigan since 2014, so it might be a while.)

Nice book and wise not entrusting it to the mails.  It looks like it has potential for a bump, ...but not if bumped around in transit.